cosmetic breast implants

  • Thread starter Thread starter AkronPonderer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That is the root problem. The Catholic definition of the word “lust” does not align well with Webster’s definition of the word which the general public understand.
 
Debora123 said:
The reason you and other atheists and non-christians don’t understand the Catholic definition of the word lust is because it gets used very loosely/incorrectly around here (probably because even most Catholics here don’t understand it very well themselves). I see this misrepresentation ALL the time around here and it is a huge pet peeve of mine.

Lust does NOT mean sexual attraction/sexual desire.

As much as some Catholics around here make it sound like it does, it does NOT. And they should be very careful in using that word.
Click to expand...
The official Catholic definition of Lust (which I have been familiar with for years now) is:
disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure

But so what?:rolleyes:

This is not the common usage of the term, nor is it the traditional (small T) definition of Lust. Moreover this definition is relatively worthless for the simple reason that what it describes does not exist in the real world.

If you strip the reproductive (e.g. sexual) urge of everything that is base, animalistic, and instinctive you are left with nothing. You might feel affection or even platonic love for a spouse or lover, but that feeling in of itself is not arousal or sexual desire.

Nevertheless this is the ideal of marital intimacy the Church seems to be promoting now. because you can’t tolerate Lust:shrug:

On a personal note, I have always thought that Catholic ideals like this concerning things such as marriage, procreation, and sex, make a lot more sense when you keep in mind the fact that they were developed by unmarried celibate men in communities of similar people.
 
Paul1961 said:
That is the root problem. The Catholic definition of the word “lust” does not align well with Webster’s definition of the word which the general public understand.
Click to expand...
Probably because the Catholic definition of arousal/sexual desire** without **Lust is a complicated theoretical concept that doesn’t seem to exist in the real world:rolleyes:
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
The official Catholic definition of Lust (which I have been familiar with for years now) is:
disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure

But so what?:rolleyes:

This is not the common usage of the term, nor is it the traditional (small T) definition of Lust. Moreover this definition is relatively worthless for the simple reason that what it describes does not exist in the real world.

If you strip the reproductive (e.g. sexual) urge of everything that is base, animalistic, and instinctive you are left with nothing. You might feel affection or even platonic love for a spouse or lover, but that feeling in of itself is not arousal or sexual desire.

Nevertheless this is the ideal of marital intimacy the Church seems to be promoting now. because you can’t tolerate Lust:shrug:

On a personal note, I have always thought that Catholic ideals like this concerning things such as marriage, procreation, and sex, make a lot more sense when you keep in mind the fact that they were developed by unmarried celibate men in communities of similar people.
Click to expand...
What you state is a short definition that really doesn’t explain anything. Anyone could read that short line and really be no wiser at all as to what it actually means to lust.

JPII’s book, Theology of the Body, goes pretty in depth on the whole lust thing and explains it quite thoroughly. Mary Beth Bonacci wrote a book based on the Theology of the Body, and here’s the definition in her own words:
“Lust” doesn’t mean sexual attraction. Attraction, especially between husband and wife, is a good thing. JPII has said that himself many times. Lust, on the other hand, means reducing the whole person to sex alone. Lust is the will to use another person - to see that person merely as an object of personal, sexual satisfaction.
Click to expand...
Now lust doesn’t mean just sexual attraction. Sexual attraction is normal. It’s the way God made us. Lust means the willful desire to use someone - in this case, to use someone’s body - for our own purpose or our own pleasure. It forgets that each person was created in the image and likeness of God.
Click to expand...
It [lust] takes something beautiful and strips it of its meaning. It degrades a great gift. And it makes a human being into just another “thing” to help us get what we want.
Click to expand...
Very obvious examples of lust are rape and porn use. Because you are using sex in a way that is not loving towards the other person. But rather, in a way that is using the other person. As though the other person was reduced to an object for your own personal self gain.

A man having a strong sexual attraction and sexual desire for his girlfriend, however, is NOT lust. It is normal. Obviously. And without it, as you say, “the human race would have died out a long time ago.”

And yes, the word “lust” gets used incorrectly and tossed around here a whole hell of a lot, unfortunately, and that just adds to the confusion.
 
Debora123 said:
What you state is a short definition that really doesn’t explain anything. Anyone could read that short line and really be no wiser at all as to what it actually means to lust.

JPII’s book, Theology of the Body, goes pretty in depth on the whole lust thing and explains it quite thoroughly. Mary Beth Bonacci wrote a book based on the Theology of the Body, and here’s the definition in her own words:

Very obvious examples of lust are rape and porn use. Because you are using sex in a way that is not loving towards the other person. But rather, in a way that is using the other person. As though the other person was reduced to an object for your own personal self gain.

A man having a strong sexual attraction and sexual desire for his girlfriend, however, is NOT lust. It is normal. Obviously. And without it, as you say, “the human race would have died out a long time ago.”

And yes, the word “lust” gets used incorrectly and tossed around here a whole hell of a lot, unfortunately, and that just adds to the confusion.
Click to expand...
One tactic that debators often use when reason and evidence don’t support their argument is to redefine the terms being used. Such is the case with the Catholic Church today and sex.

The Church has attempted to argue that its not against sex and sexual desire by redefining Lust. By saying that ‘of course Lust is bad but none of you really understand what Lust is.’

The Church claims that sexual desire itself is not bad, you just have to strip it of all those nasty, selfish, instinctive, base urges for it to be good in God’s eyes. The problem is that that is what sexual desire* is.*

Arousal, sexual desire, etc. are all instinctive urges and reactions.

Does that mean that romantic love and similar ideals are impossible or completely unrealistic.

No.

But that instinctive, selfish urge (e.g. Lust) is the foundation. You cannot have the marital act without it. Trying to purify sex and sexual desire of it is like trying to fix a skyscraper by removing the steel girders holding it up.
 
Debora123 said:
See above.
Click to expand...
The Catholic Church saying that its not against sex and sexual desire, just the base urges that define it, is like someone forbidding people from using their mouths and then claiming that they have no problem with people eating.

Yes, it may technically be possible to eat without use of the mouth, but it would be inconvenient, time consuming, and uncomfortable (not to mention unnatural). Moreover it would be completely unfeasible for most people most of the time.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
The Catholic Church saying that its not against sex and sexual desire, just the base urges that define it, is like someone forbidding people from using their mouths and then claiming that they have no problem with people eating.

Yes, it may technically be possible to eat without use of the mouth, but it would be inconvenient, time consuming, and uncomfortable (not to mention unnatural). Moreover it would be completely unfeasible for most people most of the time.
Click to expand...
I guess you don’t understand what I meant, and that’s probably my own fault for not explaining it very well. :nope:

Again, the Church does NOT say that lust is just “the base urges that define sexual desire.”

Lust is not an urge at all.

I thought I had made it quite clear what lust was when I used rape and porn as examples, and specifically implied that “urges,” “desires,” “feelings,” had nothing to do with it.

I gotta run to work but I’ll try and explain it a little better later on.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
One tactic that debators often use when reason and evidence don’t support their argument is to redefine the terms being used. Such is the case with the Catholic Church today and sex.
Click to expand...
Much the contrary, “lust” has always been defined as a negative, selfish act in all of history. It is the secular society that kinda changed it to mean something more along the lines of “sexual desire.” …Which is not what it started off to mean in the first place.
 
Debora123 said:
I guess you don’t understand what I meant, and that’s probably my own fault for not explaining it very well. :nope:

Again, the Church does NOT say that lust is just “the base urges that define sexual desire.”

Lust is not an urge at all.

I thought I had made it quite clear what lust was when I used rape and porn as examples, and specifically implied that “urges,” “desires,” “feelings,” had nothing to do with it.

I gotta run to work but I’ll try and explain it a little better later on.
Click to expand...
Oh I understand perfectly well what you’re saying.

I just reject the Catholic definitions of good sex and Lust because they make no sense. Not based on the way that human beings actually act and have shown a capacity to act.
 
Debora123 said:
Much the contrary, “lust” has always been defined as a negative, selfish act in all of history. It is the secular society that kinda changed it to mean something more along the lines of “sexual desire.” …Which is not what it started off to mean in the first place.
Click to expand...
Do you have any proof of this extraordinary claim?
 
I dunno 🙂

My (name removed by moderator)ut on this is that if I were a woman, I am a man by the way, I would not want to have breast implants because I would want to breastfeed my kids.

If I then got to a stage where I had kids and had no need ot breastfeed I would certainly not feel the need to have perfectly plastic breasts…

If I had billions of pounds and I had kids I would still not want to have breast implants… I would kind of be scared to think what God would think about me cutting my breasts open… Hmmm, I personally lift weights and take a fat burner that has some impact on the thyroid to speed the metabolism up, so maybe that is bad? You could say that I had more chance of cancer if I was fatter… Hmm… Vanity…

I don’t understand women though… I have a girlfriend and… I am such a macho man… My girlfriend has breast implants but that is not why I am with her… I would always want to be with her and nobody else no matter the size of her boobs… I don’t judge her because of her boobs because I take her as she is… She has big boobs now… OK, I love her how she is… Maybe she was worried about society? She told me that she had them done so that she would feel like a woman and look nice in dresses - she is really athletic so she kind of looks like Lara Croft from the Tomb Raider computer games 🙂

Hmm, I dunno… Why spend time worrying about if it is right or wrong? Do what you think is right… My girlfriend, and probably soon to be wife, has had them done… Does it make me treat her any differently? No. Do I judge her? No. Do I love her? Yes. Didn’t Jesus say throw the first stone if you think that you can? We have all sinned.

If you personally want breast implants then I guess that maybe it is a lack of faith in God? We all struggle… We all sin… If I had faith in God like I do now and just waited for Him to get me a great wife then I would be a lot better off… Society is messed up… Why not just focus on being a role model for everyone? Is it a role model to judge? Is it a role model to have breast implants? What does a person getting breast implants represent? Faith in God? No… it doesn’t… Are you perfect? Do you know how to live? Do you know the perfect balance? No, so we can’t judge… All we can do is to try our best…

If having breast implants makes you feel like you grow closer to God and the perfect balance to a happy life then I say do it… Is everyone having breast implants the answer to everyone being happy? Why don’t we all buy breast implants for everyone in the world and give them to depressed people?

What is life all about, having perky breasts? Come on… life is about love through God… If breast implants were the way to happiness and heaven then all Catholics would have huge breast implants… Imagine… HAHA… All Catholic women in church with plastic breasts… I think that being a Catholic is just about growing closer to God and big breasts is not the answer… Maybe think of life as,

‘If everyone in the Catholic Church did this with me what would we represent, sustainability? Is it sustainable for everyone to be happy and have perky breasts? No, sustainability, continuity and happiness is through God…’

We should be living simple lives… We should be more focused on God than our breasts… Sustainable happiness… All Catholics together with cosmetic breast implants… Can you imagine??? HAHAHA…
 
NewCatholicUK said:
I dunno 🙂

My (name removed by moderator)ut on this is that if I were a woman, I am a man by the way, I would not want to have breast implants because I would want to breastfeed my kids.

If I then got to a stage where I had kids and had no need ot breastfeed I would certainly not feel the need to have perfectly plastic breasts…

If I had billions of pounds and I had kids I would still not want to have breast implants… I would kind of be scared to think what God would think about me cutting my breasts open… Hmmm, I personally lift weights and take a fat burner that has some impact on the thyroid to speed the metabolism up, so maybe that is bad? You could say that I had more chance of cancer if I was fatter… Hmm… Vanity…

I don’t understand women though… I have a girlfriend and… I am such a macho man… My girlfriend has breast implants but that is not why I am with her… I would always want to be with her and nobody else no matter the size of her boobs… I don’t judge her because of her boobs because I take her as she is… She has big boobs now… OK, I love her how she is… Maybe she was worried about society? She told me that she had them done so that she would feel like a woman and look nice in dresses - she is really athletic so she kind of looks like Lara Croft from the Tomb Raider computer games 🙂

Hmm, I dunno… Why spend time worrying about if it is right or wrong? Do what you think is right… My girlfriend, and probably soon to be wife, has had them done… Does it make me treat her any differently? No. Do I judge her? No. Do I love her? Yes. Didn’t Jesus say throw the first stone if you think that you can? We have all sinned.

If you personally want breast implants then I guess that maybe it is a lack of faith in God? We all struggle… We all sin… If I had faith in God like I do now and just waited for Him to get me a great wife then I would be a lot better off… Society is messed up… Why not just focus on being a role model for everyone? Is it a role model to judge? Is it a role model to have breast implants? What does a person getting breast implants represent? Faith in God? No… it doesn’t… Are you perfect? Do you know how to live? Do you know the perfect balance? No, so we can’t judge… All we can do is to try our best…

If having breast implants makes you feel like you grow closer to God and the perfect balance to a happy life then I say do it… Is everyone having breast implants the answer to everyone being happy? Why don’t we all buy breast implants for everyone in the world and give them to depressed people?

What is life all about, having perky breasts? Come on… life is about love through God… If breast implants were the way to happiness and heaven then all Catholics would have huge breast implants… Imagine… HAHA… All Catholic women in church with plastic breasts… I think that being a Catholic is just about growing closer to God and big breasts is not the answer… Maybe think of life as,

‘If everyone in the Catholic Church did this with me what would we represent, sustainability? Is it sustainable for everyone to be happy and have perky breasts? No, sustainability, continuity and happiness is through God…’

We should be living simple lives… We should be more focused on God than our breasts… Sustainable happiness… All Catholics together with cosmetic breast implants… Can you imagine??? HAHAHA…
Click to expand...
Two things:
  1. I thought this thread was dead (although it may be undead now;)).
  2. Doesn’t it strike you as the least bit hypocritical to talk about how you love your girlfriend (and how she looks) and then give other women a hard time for doing the same thing?
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
I guess not.

Well I apparently win the argument:shrug:
Click to expand...
Whoa, this thread popped up again on my “subscribed threads” and I hardly even remember having written all these posts lol.

To answer your question, I’d say the bible (especially the older books) were written well before the Catholic Church even existed. It’s one of the oldest written works we have on Earth, and it portrays “lust” as being the same thing that the Church portrays it to be today.

Either way, this is kind of a silly argument because it is all about semantics. At the end of the day, I’m sure both you, as an atheist, and I, as a Catholic agree that there is nothing wrong with sexual attraction/desire. And I’m sure that we also both agree that using another human being as though they were an object and not a person is disrespectful, unloving, and wrong.

…Whatever “word” we use to describe that is just pettiness.

PS - I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with getting breast implants. 👍
 
If you work for the money and you want to spend it on doing something cosmetically that you feel will enhance your life, then I don’t have a problem with it. We all spend our money on things to enhance our lives, whether it be a high end car or a filet mignon. Cosmetic surgery is a personal choice.
 
Et_Cetera said:
If you work for the money and you want to spend it on doing something cosmetically that you feel will enhance your life, then I don’t have a problem with it. We all spend our money on things to enhance our lives, whether it be a high end car or a filet mignon. Cosmetic surgery is a personal choice.
Click to expand...
👍
 
Et_Cetera said:
If you work for the money and you want to spend it on doing something cosmetically that you feel will enhance your life, then I don’t have a problem with it. We all spend our money on things to enhance our lives, whether it be a high end car or a filet mignon. Cosmetic surgery is a personal choice.
Click to expand...
I guess you ladies can do what you want, but I would much rather see you spend the money on a therapist to get at the root of the problem which is your insecurity. And this is coming from a guy who has a big thing for big…um…yeah 😊 😃
 
Job42 said:
I guess you ladies can do what you want, but I would much rather see you spend the money on a therapist to get at the root of the problem which is your insecurity. And this is coming from a guy who has a big thing for big…um…yeah 😊 😃
Click to expand...
Men have cosmetic work done as well. I have not had any plastic surgery.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top