Costs and Benefits of Guns

[TimeEntrance]

Stemming from the thread about guns and gun ownership rights.

I’m largely pro-gun ownership. And having a gun does not mean one will automatically commit and unjustifiable homicide. Guns can help a smaller man (or woman) against a larger man. It can also deter a mob intent on beating you or lynching you.

Guns comes with costs as well. Some of those costs are financial and others are social and emotional. Unlike a knife a gun can more efficiently kill several people from distance much further than arms length.

Mathematical averages do not accurately project the true cost of gun use. A mean average in a nation will be lowered - pulled down - by areas of a nation that rarely experience gun violence. The same is true in any city on earth. In the City of Milwaukee you have certain neighborhoods probably safer than some European cities like London, Paris, Berlin, and Naples. But on the other hand, you have certain areas of Milwaukee (true any in other city on earth) where the per capita homicides (or gun violence with surviving victims of gun wounds) greatly exceeds the per capita homicide rate of the city.

(As an example: Several years ago I worked out the algebra on the approximate homicide rate in the neighborhood I was raised in for a specific year. The homicide rate exceeded that of at least least 1 favela in Rio de Janeiro for that same year. That favela had seen an astronomical decrease in homicides due to a new and aggressive model of policing in Rio. My neighborhood has roughly over 30,000 people while the specific favela I compared the data with has over 100,000 people)

A very informative Milwaukee Journal article (the newspaper has one more than one Pulitzer Prize) about gun violence and homicides in Milwaukee - and nationally. It’s a several part series with links to all the series parts. The article is dated November of 2006. Full article and series: jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/29192834.html

If the homicide rate is the story of violence in Milwaukee, the story that has gone largely untold is of the lives that are saved and those who save them.

Troy is one of thousands of shooting victims walking the streets of Milwaukee. Each year, on average, about 600 people are struck by gunfire in the city and survive, according to a Journal Sentinel analysis of data obtained from police, hospital and fire officials.

They live thanks to a small army of paramedics, doctors and nurses, who have turned a lifeline of care into an assembly line of treatment with clockwork speed and skill. They save about 90% of the gunshot victims they treat.

Traditionally, communities count homicides as an important measure of violence. Shootings that don’t kill often aren’t tracked with any precision, in part because the FBI doesn’t require it.

Milwaukee has seen 94 homicides this year, down about 14% from this point in 2005. But serious shootings are coming in at a furious clip.

Froedtert is on pace to treat 459 shooting patients in its trauma center by year’s end, a 34% increase over last year. Through September, Children’s Hospital was running 38% ahead of last year, when it treated 110 young gunshot victims.

Researchers say paramedics, doctors and nurses have become so good at preventing shootings from becoming deaths that the homicide rate is no longer an accurate barometer of violence.

These urban medics save thousands of people who are shot every year in cities around the country, using techniques that were honed in war zones from Vietnam to the Middle East.

Now their own innovations are helping their military counterparts save the lives of American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Advances in emergency medical care over the last 40 years are responsible nationally for 30,000 to 50,000 fewer homicides annually, a study at the University of Massachusetts Amherst concluded in 2002.

 

[TimeEntrance]

^Addendum.

Social and familial setting arguably plays a role in guns and there use or non-use on other people.

1. jsonline.com/news/crime/sentencing-teen-judge-laments-citys-violence-m87gpp8-177412011.html

A judge could not contain his frustration Monday as he faced, once again, the task of sentencing a Milwaukee teenager for the senseless death of another young man.

“This is another case that’s evidence of the complete and utter disregard for life in some parts of this community,” Milwaukee County Circuit Judge David Borowski said. “Nothing changes. No one seems to care about the epidemic of violence.”

He noted that the many long sentences he and other judges impose, meant in part to deter others, seem to have little effect.

"Thirty years, 40 years, life in prison means nothing, apparently.

Defense attorney Patrick Earle suggested four years in prison, with 10 years of extended supervision. He pointed out Cheese’s very troubled youth, bouncing from placement to placement after his father was killed, his mother abandoned him, and his uncle was sent to prison.

Borowski acknowledged Cheese had it tough.

“I put a lot of blame on his family who weren’t there for him,” he said, and never helped Cheese develop the moral sense to even question Thomas’ order to “Pop that (expletive).”

Case study in how statistics can be compiled to prove what you want. Crime in Milwaukee was reported by the MPD (Milwaukee Police Department) to be on a decline but the Milwaukee Journal’s investigative reporting (not the FBI) showed that Milwaukee’s crime was on the rise but misreporting in the police’s statistical processes invariably showed the opposite.

1. m.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/hundreds-of-assault-cases-misreported-by-milwaukee-police-department-v44ce4p-152862135.html

**Hundreds of assault cases misreported by Milwaukee Police Department

By Ben Poston of the Journal Sentinel

May 22, 2012 | (325) Comments**

When Milwaukee Police Chief Edward Flynn touted the city’s fourth-straight year of falling crime in February, hundreds of beatings, stabbings and child abuse cases were missing from the count, a Journal Sentinel investigation has found.

More than 500 incidents since 2009 were misreported to the FBI as minor assaults and not included in the city’s violent crime rate, the investigation found. That tally is based on a review of cases that resulted in charges - only about one-fifth of all reported crimes.

Yet the misreported cases found in 2011 alone are enough that Flynn would have been announcing a 1.1% increase in violent crime in February, instead of a 2.3% decline from the reported 2010 numbers, which also include errors.

 

[po18guy]

Proving yet again that:

Matthew 15:19
Knox Bible (KNOX)
It is from the heart that his wicked designs come, his sins of murder, adultery, fornication, theft, perjury and blasphemy.

Do we need heart control?

 

[po18guy]

As well, the benefits are first of all to liberty and freedom from oppression by a tyrannical government. Yet, the benefits of individual firearm use are rarely reported and have certainly preserved both lives as well as property, often via mere display of a weapon. Arguments against this right are largely based upon the negativity and frequency of reporting of firearm misuse, as well as the paucity of positive reports in which lives or property were preserved. Yet, particularly in an urban environment, culture plays a huge and inseparable role in all forms of crime.

 

[Burdensome1]

So different in the South. Guns are tools. I think of my gun like I think of my shovel. If a pipe bursts in the yard, I use my shovel to dig it up. If the dog corners a porcupine or snake on the porch, I use my gun to shoot it. I could, if needsbe, kill a man with a shovel if presented with the necessity and opportunity. The gun would just be a superior tool for the job.

 

[Newbie2]

What’s the point of this thread as it related to social justice?

 

[TimeEntrance]

What’s the point of this thread as it related to social justice?

Post #387 para. 4: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=696310&page=26

 

[Newbie2]

Sorry, I missed the FIRST SENTENCE in your post. Need more caffeine, I guess.

 

[TimeEntrance]

A benefit in this case for the home owner. I suppose they can be a benefit for burglars too.

Full story and news video: fox6now.com/2012/11/13/off-duty-detective-catches-burglars-in-the-act-at-his-own-home/

The detective arrived home on Milwaukee’s south side and found a side door to his house was open. The officer took cover and called for help. Police say a suspect looked out the front door and then retreated. A second suspect, armed with a handgun, looked out a side door.

The officer says when the second suspect raised a gun, he fired, but did not strike him.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

The problem of gun violence is not the fault of law enforcement, Rather, it lies in the fact that the lower orders of society have no fear of retribution. In other words, jail or prison holds no terrors for them and they have lost any sense of personal responsibility for their acts by the time they were 10 years old.
Why aren’t they afraid of incarceration? Because in many cases they enjoy a higher standard of living inside prison than they do on the street. In addition, in many cases, the enforced discipline in prison is no worse or harsh than what shipboard sailors in the US Navy experience. The reason for all of this is that the public has fallen prey over the last 60 years or so to Social Scientists who claim that crime is a social disorder and prisons should not punish criminals but re-habilitate them.
I think that we could lower the violent crime rate significantly if our county jails, state and Federal prisons would embark on a program of strict manual labor for everyone and everything else be considered a privilege to be earned. That would include everything from TV, Movies, books to read, cigarettes, and even educational courses. I would reduce the prison diet to just enough caloric content to sustain life. You would have to do extra work to earn more food. Of course, all of this would work a hardship on the prison staff, but I’m sure somethhing could be worked out in terms of compensation for them.
The point is, that we should demand that prison be made so unpleasant that no one would willingly opt to return. If this would provoke more violence, then it is about time that the lowlifes learn that the police are trained to handle that.
We all must learn that criminals do not operate on the same moral level that ordinary folk do. For the most part, they ignore any moral code and consider that for saps.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Anyone familiar with .410 shots loaded in and fired from short barrel revolvers?

I’m pretty sure I’m going to eventually get this gun. Holster on my right hip. It will cost me about $50 or a little more to get a concealed weapons permit up her in Wisconsin and I can carry in something like 13 states I think. But first I’ll be starting off with a smaller caliber weapon to carry as a primary. I’m looking at the Khar .380 but it costs a pretty penny. I would go Hi Point firearms because they’re inexpensive - but I figure why not buy a little better quality.

I’m inquiring into the benefits and non-benefits of potentially firing at someone with .410 shots rounds or hitting someone. Also, my apartment is made up of drywall. That would be one benefit to having the .380 and probably loaded with those Glaser protective rounds. Might not penetrate the dry wall?

I’m not the most knowledgeable about bullets and ballistics.

Taurus Public Defender Ploymer: taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=693&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41

 

[TimeEntrance]

Also… I think I want this M4-A3 model Bushmaster: bushmaster.com/firearms/XM-15.asp

Or the Colt brand AR-15.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

having a gun does not mean one will automatically commit [an] unjustifiable homicide.

LOL

Thanks for letting us know the obvious!

 

[bilop]

Anyone familiar with .410 shots loaded in and fired from short barrel revolvers?

I’m pretty sure I’m going to eventually get this gun. Holster on my right hip. It will cost me about $50 or a little more to get a concealed weapons permit up her in Wisconsin and I can carry in something like 13 states I think. But first I’ll be starting off with a smaller caliber weapon to carry as a primary. I’m looking at the Khar .380 but it costs a pretty penny. I would go Hi Point firearms because they’re inexpensive - but I figure why not buy a little better quality.

I’m inquiring into the benefits and non-benefits of potentially firing at someone with .410 shots rounds or hitting someone. Also, my apartment is made up of drywall. That would be one benefit to having the .380 and probably loaded with those Glaser protective rounds. Might not penetrate the dry wall?

I’m not the most knowledgeable about bullets and ballistics.

Taurus Public Defender Ploymer: taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=693&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41

If you’re not very knowledgeable with firearms, I would strongly suggest a revolver as your first handgun. Much simpler, and almost 100% reliable.

For carry, I’d go with a 5-shot .357/.38 special w/a 3-inch barrel. Load it with +P+ hollow-point ammo, NOT magnum rounds.

God Bless

 

[SamH]

The problem of gun violence is not the fault of law enforcement, Rather, it lies in the fact that the lower orders of society have no fear of retribution. In other words, jail or prison holds no terrors for them and they have lost any sense of personal responsibility for their acts by the time they were 10 years old.
Why aren’t they afraid of incarceration? Because in many cases they enjoy a higher standard of living inside prison than they do on the street.

The problem is not enough law breakers are in prison. When federal district attorneys prosecute felons for possession of a firearm the crime rate falls. The problem is they seldom do it.

 

[SamH]

Anyone familiar with .410 shots loaded in and fired from short barrel revolvers?

I’m pretty sure I’m going to eventually get this gun. Holster on my right hip. It will cost me about $50 or a little more to get a concealed weapons permit up her in Wisconsin and I can carry in something like 13 states I think. But first I’ll be starting off with a smaller caliber weapon to carry as a primary. I’m looking at the Khar .380 but it costs a pretty penny. I would go Hi Point firearms because they’re inexpensive - but I figure why not buy a little better quality.

I’m inquiring into the benefits and non-benefits of potentially firing at someone with .410 shots rounds or hitting someone. Also, my apartment is made up of drywall. That would be one benefit to having the .380 and probably loaded with those Glaser protective rounds. Might not penetrate the dry wall?

I’m not the most knowledgeable about bullets and ballistics.

Taurus Public Defender Ploymer: taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=693&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41

Basically when loaded with the .410 round they are an expensive toy. They have little stopping power. At any distance the .410 round with its extremely short barrel rapidly loses speed and the shot dissipates. At more than 20’ a heavy coat will provide a person a lot of safety.

A Glaser round will penetrate the first layer of drywall (your side of the wall) with little problem, the second layer (your neighbor’s wall), is the one that stops most of the round. The first layer tears the tip off the round allowing the 12 shot to spray out. The 12 shot is then easily defeated by the 1/2" drywall of your neighbor’s wall.

 

[Seeker1961]

A friend of mine says “I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy.”

I have a carry permit, but I don’t really carry a gun much. It’s really in the house for protection. You come into my house uninvited and you will likely leave with lead in you.

 

[Bradski]

I’m largely pro-gun ownership. And having a gun does not mean one will automatically commit and unjustifiable homicide.

The figures you give for Milwaukee give a homicide rate of just over 15 per 100,000. We have quite strict gun control in Australia and the overall homicide rate is 0.1 per 100,000. That’s not a misprint. You are 150 times more likely to get killed in Milwaukee than anywhere in Oz.

Something wrong there, surely.

 

[TimeEntrance]

If you’re not very knowledgeable with firearms, I would strongly suggest a revolver as your first handgun. Much simpler, and almost 100% reliable.

I’m familiar with firing pistols I just have a certain limited knowledge about firearms overall. I used to carry a Beretta in the military. I was trained - and had to qualify - shooting on the pistol range standing, kneeling, and in prone. We did a lot of shooting on the move too. I was trained in the Weaver Stance. We also did a fair amount of Close Quarter Battle or room clearing using paintballs.

Nonetheless, most civilian gun enthusiasts usually have acquired far more knowledge about firearms than I have.

Point in case are is your comment below I placed in bold.

For carry, I’d go with a 5-shot .357/.38 special w/a 3-inch barrel. Load it with +P+ hollow-point ammo, NOT magnum rounds.

God Bless

I used to own a .357 with a 3 or so inch barrel. I only loaded .38 caliber rounds in it though. Heavy weapon to tuck in the waistband. And yeah… I used to carry concealed illegally. I used to drive with my 9 mm Glock laying in my lap with round chambered, too.

Really… today I don’t really want to kill anyone even if I feel threatened enough that I shoot them. Well, there might be occasions I might want to kill if I shoot. But in general I’d rather see the person not die and not end up paralyzed or something like that.

I say all that because the .357 and .38 supposedly have much higher rates of one shot drops (dropping the victim/target) than something like the .380 or .32. But I think it’s okay with me to carry less fire power. If the sight or sound of the fire arm is deterrent or reduces mental and physical aggression than cool. Plus, I’m of the mind that with rare exceptions dropping someone with one shot is not needed. I know the military and law enforcement think otherwise tactically, and so do most civilian gun enthusiasts, but in the vast majority of cases I think I could wrestle a few minutes with a person wounded from a bullet or bullets.

(I’m not talking about head shots when I speak of dropping someone with one shot)

Thanks for the info, personal perspective, and suggestion though.

 

[TimeEntrance]

SamH, mucho thanks for the info. The Glaser round sounds like something more responsible to load a personal pistol with if in my apartment. I would hate for a round or rounds to pass through the walls of fellow tenants apartment units and strike someone let alone a kid!

I was surprised by what you said about the .410 ammunition though. I had thought it would be pretty powerful ammunition. Surely two or three rounds would penetrate a thick coat or no?

I’m guessing then you would rather load the Taurus Public Defender with .45 rounds?

Bradski, maybe so. I wonder if the statistical rate in Oz is more impacted by other factors and less impacted by tight gun control? Like… a more homogenous society? Actually, I have no idea. I can’t really blame the Mexican boarder and Asian, African, and Latino immigrants. Without them the U.S. culturally has a long tradition of glamorizing the cowboy, bank robber, and mobster.

Then again… maybe immigration was a huge factor in the huge homicide rates of Miami during the early 1980’s in conjunction with cocaine distribution.

But maybe your comparison between the whole country of Oz with the small city of Milwaukee is a little statistically unfair? Maybe it would be better to compare the rate in Milwaukee with other cities of similar size and demographics in Oz?

Anywho… I’d prefer to have a firearm or several firearms if I was living in Oz. Especially in some outback type area where your neighbors and police are far away from you. I had briefly watched that movie based on a true story where some serial killer in Oz was killing people in some outback type area. I think he was torturing them too.