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Reformed_Rob
Guest
Could we please get back on topic now? I’m not wanting to be rude or anything like that, but we do have a private message system available for personal discussion such as this! I’m not suggesting you continue that discussion, but if you do, please finish it elsewhere.
And if you want to respond to this, send me a private message, I will read it.
And if you want to respond to this, send me a private message, I will read it.
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Robin
Guest
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Robin
Guest
I believe it is stated that scripture is “profitable”. It doesnot say that scripture is “sufficient”.
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Corpus_Cristi
Guest
ExactlyI believe it is stated that scripture is “profitable”. It doesnot say that scripture is “sufficient”.
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Shibboleth
Guest
It is both profitable and sufficient… what’s your point.I believe it is stated that scripture is “profitable”. It doesnot say that scripture is “sufficient”.
A stop sign is RED. My saying that does not meant that it does not have other qualities.
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RBushlow
Guest
Hi Shibboleth,
It is clear from Sacred Scripture that Scripture is profitable. Please show me the scripture which says everything that is necessary (i.e. sufficient) is in the Scriptures. Thank you.
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Shibboleth
Guest
Before I do I just wanted to give you these things just to show that this is not a New Lutheran thing…
“The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth. St. Athanasius (Against the Heathen, I:3)
“We are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.” St. Gregory of Nyssa (On the Soul and the Resurrection NPNF II, V:439)
Neither dare one agree with catholic bishops if by chance they err in anything, but the result that their opinion is against the canonical Scriptures of God. St. Augustine (De unitate ecclesiae, chp. 10)
There is this too…
“For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law.” - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)
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Shibboleth
Guest
I have mentioned many Bible quotes that relate to the issue. Remember for a Lutheran “Sola Scriptura” does not mean that everything is definitively stated in the Bible – so to speak. The Trinity and the Duality of Jesus as true man and true God are not directly spoken of in the Scriptures yet we know these to be true do to the allusions to the issue. So although 2 Tim 3:16 does not directly say the Scriptures are sufficient other situations and quotes in the Bible help paint the picture.
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Schabel
Guest
This is an untenable and unbiblical position to take. But, seeing that this is off-topic, if you’d like to discuss just why this is so, I invite, no, implore you to start a new thread. I’ll be happy to explain myself there.
Whether you believe Catholicism is the church Jesus started or not (it is, though!), Jesus had intended that we belong to a faith community with other believers and had instructed us to do so.
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RBushlow
Guest
These are good and profitable Sacred Scriptures. I agree that Scripture is profitable. However, they do not show that “scripture alone” is sufficient. I do not find the doctrine of “scripture alone” (sola scriptura) within scripture. By this doctrine, everything that is necessary is within scripture, so I must be able to find it within the scriptures.RBushlow:
I have mentioned many Bible quotes that relate to the issue.
Shibboleth:
As I stated before “It is clear from Sacred Scripture that Scripture is profitable. Please show me the scripture which says everything that is necessary (i.e. sufficient) is in the Scriptures. Thank you”
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Shibboleth
Guest
You are confusing “Sola Scriptura” with “Solo Scriptura.” The Bible has many verses on the power of the scriptures in themselves in that they are to be and have been used as the authority.
In the end you are confusing Lutherans with Fundamentalists. If you are looking for a debate or proof on the subject I am not interested. I have no problem explaining our point of view but it is a matter of Faith not of Proof. I do not need to prove something to believe in that something if I did it would not be faith.
Anyways here is how Lutherans usually reply when we are confused with Fundamentalists.
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Corpus_Cristi
Guest
Shibboleth, there’s lot’s of things you probably don’t know about Luther. For one, he had a devotion to Mary and the saints, as in asking them for their intercession. Another thing you probably don’t know is that he believed in things like the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, and her Perpetual Virginity. Those aren’t found in the Bible, things point to them, though despite these things being found in the Bible, the majority of Lutherens don’t have a devotion to Mary or the saints and think it’s wrong, and they don’t believe these things about Mary that Luther actually believed. Luther has, as a matter of fact, written some of the most beautiful poems and prayers about and to Mary. How do you explain this with his belief in “sola scriptura”?
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Shibboleth
Guest
Corpus Cristi:
Per Article VIII of the Formula of Concord (Solid Declaration), Lutherans confess:
“Mary, the most blessed virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother’s womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore she is truly the mother of God and yet remained a virgin.”
Also as part of the Church Catholic, we share the pre-reformation Marian Dogmas with the pre-schismed Church:
“Only those things have been recounted whereof we thought that it was necessary to speak, in order that it might be understood that in doctrine and ceremonies nothing has been received on our part against Scripture or the Church Catholic. For it is manifest that we have taken most diligent care that no new and ungodly doctrine should creep into our churches.” -The Conclusion to the Augsburg Confession
That would include the conclusion of the Second Council of Constantinople in the year 553:
“If anyone will not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, that which is before all ages from the Father, outside time and without a body, and secondly that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her: let him be anathema.”
I know all of this… the Book of Concord states that the Lutheran Church believes in the perpetual Virginity of Mary. But you wanted it you got it….
Per Article VIII of the Formula of Concord (Solid Declaration), Lutherans confess:
“Mary, the most blessed virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. He demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother’s womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore she is truly the mother of God and yet remained a virgin.”
Also as part of the Church Catholic, we share the pre-reformation Marian Dogmas with the pre-schismed Church:
“Only those things have been recounted whereof we thought that it was necessary to speak, in order that it might be understood that in doctrine and ceremonies nothing has been received on our part against Scripture or the Church Catholic. For it is manifest that we have taken most diligent care that no new and ungodly doctrine should creep into our churches.” -The Conclusion to the Augsburg Confession
That would include the conclusion of the Second Council of Constantinople in the year 553:
“If anyone will not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, that which is before all ages from the Father, outside time and without a body, and secondly that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her: let him be anathema.”
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Shibboleth
Guest
part 2
Also, from our own Symbolical Writings:
“That the Son became man in this manner, that He was conceived, without the cooperation of man, by the Holy Ghost, and was born of the pure, holy (and always “semper” in the Latin]) Virgin Mary.” -Smalcald Articles, I
The Augsburg Confession refers to her as “that most praiseworthy Virgin” (III,1).
The Smalcald Articles (The First Part) concludes with the statement
“Concerning these [above listed] articles there is no contention or dispute, since we on both sides confess them.” One of the “above listed articles” is that Jesus “was born of the pure, holy and 'always Virgin” Mary’ ("… et ex Maria, pura, sancta ‘Sempervirgine’ nasceretur."
Some evidence that it was fully accepted by the early Church and more than implied by the Lutheran reformers that Mary was ever-virgin:
“This [the Incarnation] was without the co-operation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.” -Luther’s Works 22: 23
“Christ… was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him.” -Luther’s Works 22: 214
“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .” -That Jesus Christ was born a Jew -Martin Luther
Mary’s ever-virginity was not disputed by Luther, Calvin, Zwingly, Bullinger, or Wesley. It is maintained on Biblical grounds alone by many protestants and was widely upheld by the early Church fathers. Denial of Mary’s perpetual virginity is quite a recent trend, probably only 150-200 years old and based on the misunderstanding of the word “adelphos.”
Also, from our own Symbolical Writings:
“That the Son became man in this manner, that He was conceived, without the cooperation of man, by the Holy Ghost, and was born of the pure, holy (and always “semper” in the Latin]) Virgin Mary.” -Smalcald Articles, I
The Augsburg Confession refers to her as “that most praiseworthy Virgin” (III,1).
The Smalcald Articles (The First Part) concludes with the statement
“Concerning these [above listed] articles there is no contention or dispute, since we on both sides confess them.” One of the “above listed articles” is that Jesus “was born of the pure, holy and 'always Virgin” Mary’ ("… et ex Maria, pura, sancta ‘Sempervirgine’ nasceretur."
Some evidence that it was fully accepted by the early Church and more than implied by the Lutheran reformers that Mary was ever-virgin:
“This [the Incarnation] was without the co-operation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.” -Luther’s Works 22: 23
“Christ… was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him.” -Luther’s Works 22: 214
“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .” -That Jesus Christ was born a Jew -Martin Luther
Mary’s ever-virginity was not disputed by Luther, Calvin, Zwingly, Bullinger, or Wesley. It is maintained on Biblical grounds alone by many protestants and was widely upheld by the early Church fathers. Denial of Mary’s perpetual virginity is quite a recent trend, probably only 150-200 years old and based on the misunderstanding of the word “adelphos.”
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Shibboleth
Guest
part 3
The “until” argument is a common in the Virginity. There are many examples from scripture to show that “until,” does not have quite the same meaning in Hebrew and Greek as it does in English. You don’t have to know Greek or Hebrew to see that. Check out the examples below and think of “until” as we would in English.
Here’s one example: “David’s wife Michal had no son until the day of her death.” -2 Samuel 6:23. Do you think she had one after her death?
For more, see: Dt. 34:6, Psalm 110:1, Mt.22-42-46, Psalm 72:7, Mt.24:29, Mt. 11:23, Mt 28:20, Romans 8:22, 1 Timothy 4:13,
The “until” argument is a common in the Virginity. There are many examples from scripture to show that “until,” does not have quite the same meaning in Hebrew and Greek as it does in English. You don’t have to know Greek or Hebrew to see that. Check out the examples below and think of “until” as we would in English.
Here’s one example: “David’s wife Michal had no son until the day of her death.” -2 Samuel 6:23. Do you think she had one after her death?
For more, see: Dt. 34:6, Psalm 110:1, Mt.22-42-46, Psalm 72:7, Mt.24:29, Mt. 11:23, Mt 28:20, Romans 8:22, 1 Timothy 4:13,
But with Old Testament Jewish Law and custom as our guide, we have a pretty good idea. “Natural Law” is often trumped by ceremonial and other Jewish Law. It is likely that Mary would have been considered off-limits to Joseph sexually. Logically, this is odd to a New Testament, non-Jewish Christian. Mary was “betrothed” to Joseph, which by Jewish law and Hebrew language means “holy" “consecrated,” “set apart.” As the Jewish Talmud puts it: “The husband prohibits his wife to the whole world like an object which is dedicated to the Sanctuary.” And according to Deuteronomy 22:22-29, Joseph, when he learned of Mary’s pregnancy by someone other than him (or any legitimate husband) had either to publicly condemn her and have her put to death for adultery or put her away privately. This is why the angel came to Joseph to tell him, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife; for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” -Matthew 1:20-21. In Greek, the angel uses the words “paralambano gunaika.” These are not the usual words for marriage used to mean literally the Hebrew “go in unto” as in Genesis 30:3, 4, 16 or the Greek “come together” as in Matthew 1:18. According to most reputable translation resources, “paralambano gunaika” is rendered in English to mean to “lead her into a house;” but not implying even cohabitating with her.
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Shibboleth
Guest
part 4
The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, is pronounced a marital partner of Mary by Gabriel in Luke 1:31-35. Gabriel uses “reshuth” which means “to lay one’s power over a woman” (see Deuteronomy 21:4) and is the common way of saying “to have a marital relationship with her.” This is in direct response to Mary’s question, “How can this [Jesus’ conception] be since I have no husband.” God played by the rules (OT Jewish Laws and customs) so as to be recognized, by these devout Law-abiding Jews, as YHWH and not some demon imposter going around justifying illegitimate pregnancies. He pronounced her betrothed…to the Spirit who had impregnated her; then told Joseph, “Don’t worry, take her into your home and look after her.” How would Joseph, the devout Jew, have responded if it was any other way?
Often Christians can’t imagine that Joseph would have remained married to Mary without a physical love life. According to the Old Testament and Talmud, (see Exodus 19:15) Moses and the consecrated elders, while married, remained celibate, after receiving a three day warning to do so on account of being in the presence of God. This is important to Jewish belief and they still hold that Moses remained celibate for the rest of his life (throughout 40 years in the wilderness). Eldad and Medad, when the spirit of prophecy came upon them, became celibate after the Word of the Lord came to them. Often those who received a divine revelation refrained from sex and were of strict discipline in matters of “purity” (see Revelation 14:2-5).
The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, is pronounced a marital partner of Mary by Gabriel in Luke 1:31-35. Gabriel uses “reshuth” which means “to lay one’s power over a woman” (see Deuteronomy 21:4) and is the common way of saying “to have a marital relationship with her.” This is in direct response to Mary’s question, “How can this [Jesus’ conception] be since I have no husband.” God played by the rules (OT Jewish Laws and customs) so as to be recognized, by these devout Law-abiding Jews, as YHWH and not some demon imposter going around justifying illegitimate pregnancies. He pronounced her betrothed…to the Spirit who had impregnated her; then told Joseph, “Don’t worry, take her into your home and look after her.” How would Joseph, the devout Jew, have responded if it was any other way?
Often Christians can’t imagine that Joseph would have remained married to Mary without a physical love life. According to the Old Testament and Talmud, (see Exodus 19:15) Moses and the consecrated elders, while married, remained celibate, after receiving a three day warning to do so on account of being in the presence of God. This is important to Jewish belief and they still hold that Moses remained celibate for the rest of his life (throughout 40 years in the wilderness). Eldad and Medad, when the spirit of prophecy came upon them, became celibate after the Word of the Lord came to them. Often those who received a divine revelation refrained from sex and were of strict discipline in matters of “purity” (see Revelation 14:2-5).
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Shibboleth
Guest
I could go on… I am aware of such things. Once again you misunderstand Lutheranism.
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Shibboleth
Guest
Sorry I feel I must…
Before His death at Golgotha, Jesus said to Mary, “Woman, there is your son,” and to John, who is unarguably not a brother by blood, “There is your mother.” According to Jewish law, the eldest male child had the duty of caring for a widowed or aging mother. That responsibility was passed down the line to the next oldest children if anything happened to the first born son. Since Jesus, the first-born, had no true half-brother, He entrusted Mary to the care of “John, the Beloved.” It should also be noted that the supposed half-brother of Jesus (James “the brother of the Lord”) was still alive long after this. Paul mentions him in Galatians 1:19, years after the crucifixion.
Some prophesies about Jesus’ birth:
Ezekiel 44:2: “Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world.”
Exodus 3:2 offers another tidbit of incarnation prophesy. This is where God comes as fire and “the bush is not burnt.” This has traditionally been held to prophesy the virginity of Mary.
See Proverbs 8:22-31 and Song of Solomon 4:12-16. Traditionally Mary is the “garden enclosed, fountain sealed up,” the Holy Spirit is the “winds” which blow upon the garden (spirit, breeze, and breath are the same word in Hebrew) and Jesus is the “fragrance wafted abroad.” Song of Solomon is a love letter which often relates God to a lover. Verse 16 says, “let my beloved come to his garden, and eat its choicest fruits.” This is traditionally seen as prophetic of Jesus birth to a Virgin Mother who is betrothed to the Holy Spirit.
Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus when he was found in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.
In John 7:3-4 and Mark 3:21 the younger “brothers” advise Jesus. Amongst devout Jews, this would have been extremely disrespectful if Jesus was their elder biological brother.
Before His death at Golgotha, Jesus said to Mary, “Woman, there is your son,” and to John, who is unarguably not a brother by blood, “There is your mother.” According to Jewish law, the eldest male child had the duty of caring for a widowed or aging mother. That responsibility was passed down the line to the next oldest children if anything happened to the first born son. Since Jesus, the first-born, had no true half-brother, He entrusted Mary to the care of “John, the Beloved.” It should also be noted that the supposed half-brother of Jesus (James “the brother of the Lord”) was still alive long after this. Paul mentions him in Galatians 1:19, years after the crucifixion.
Some prophesies about Jesus’ birth:
Ezekiel 44:2: “Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world.”
Exodus 3:2 offers another tidbit of incarnation prophesy. This is where God comes as fire and “the bush is not burnt.” This has traditionally been held to prophesy the virginity of Mary.
See Proverbs 8:22-31 and Song of Solomon 4:12-16. Traditionally Mary is the “garden enclosed, fountain sealed up,” the Holy Spirit is the “winds” which blow upon the garden (spirit, breeze, and breath are the same word in Hebrew) and Jesus is the “fragrance wafted abroad.” Song of Solomon is a love letter which often relates God to a lover. Verse 16 says, “let my beloved come to his garden, and eat its choicest fruits.” This is traditionally seen as prophetic of Jesus birth to a Virgin Mother who is betrothed to the Holy Spirit.
Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus when he was found in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.
In John 7:3-4 and Mark 3:21 the younger “brothers” advise Jesus. Amongst devout Jews, this would have been extremely disrespectful if Jesus was their elder biological brother.
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Shibboleth
Guest
In Revelation 12:1-17 there is also an inference to Mary. This woman is the symbol of the Church: she is to “bear a child,” and her child is to “rule the nations;” but is “caught up to God and to his throne.” Sound familiar? She is “clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” The woman flees from the dragon to “the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God where she is nourished for one 1260 days” The dragon continues to pursue her and persecute her, and when he realizes he will not be able to destroy her, he goes out “to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” This is the Church who lives in the wilderness, the faithful living off the bread of life which God provides in the flesh and blood of Jesus. The Church, which will never see Hell’s gates, is persecuted and battled against by Satan and the world. This Church bears many children and against whom “the devil and all his works and all his ways” makes war; and it is unavoidable that there is a type/antitype situation with Mary, as Mother of the Church.
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