Could a Catholic bake a cake for a gay wedding?

[AugustTherese]

Should a Jewish butcher refuse to accept a request to handle/process non-Kosher meat?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Ultimately, what must be upheld is Viewpoint Discrimination. We must be allowed to discriminate against being the medium of the expression of a viewpoint we object to. But we needn’t be allowed to discriminate based on what type of person is asking us. The notion that a white cake with flowers expresses a viewpoint is one that I do not understand.

 

[Rau]

Catholics bake cakes for second and third weddings too; they don’t ask if they are church-approved before they do,

When a woman comes in to buy a cake, the baker does not check whether her spouse to be is man or woman. At some point, he is informed.

 

[Rau]

They would be my relatives or my close friends who are like family. I support and show love for my family or very close friends.

It is as though the same situation is good and praiseworthy and grounds for joy in one circumstance (they are your close friends) and not in another.

 

[Benadam]

, your answer to discrimination encountered in the marketplace is for the person discriminated against to move?

No. In your example there was only one butcher for an entire town. I would move because forcing an entire community to change long established moral values isn’t practicle. Actually out of respect for them i would want to move. Don’t want to be a nuesance to an entire town. Unless I wanted to force them to accept infidels and change long established morals that structure their society just for me. That wouldn’t be right.

 

[PaulinVA]

Not a possibility. Imo. No one has a problem selling to Catholics. We don’t present social change that violates anyone. Aftrr all this social structure we live in was built by people who share our values. People who don’t want to force a ‘minority’ among us to do something that violates their consciences. Conscience is sacred to those that originated this society. Too bad it isn’t to those that want to violate ours.

Bernadam, I don’t think you are getting it. If something can be used to discriminate against one group (gay people) it can be used against another group (Catholics). Just because you don’t think it would happen doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

To address your statement, wait until the Church and Catholics are the only ones against this entire redefinition of values and morals. We’ve lost the culture wars, and at a certain point people won’t be civil about us constantly railing against what society now accepts.

We don’t want to do things now that give our enemies ammunition against us later.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

So, your question boils down to “in terms of civil law, may an American refuse to provide…

I didn’t think that was his question at all. I thought he was asking whether a course of action was permissible under catholic moral principles/guidelines.

I think his question has both dimensions: what is our responsibility vis-a-vis Catholic moral teaching and also, what is our responsibility vis-a-vis laws that infringe on our religious beliefs.

 

[Wolfie]

It is extremely offensive to compare a person voluntarily opening and running a bakery (for the entire American public) and benefiting from our capitalist economy to the struggles of fighting men and women who may become imprisoned, enslaved, and forced under threat of physical abuse and death to do hard and morally difficult labor as a POW.

I think cherrypicking moral issues to be derelict in your duty as a citizen is akin to being a tax protester, and I think Jesus would not approve of that.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My close friends or family would know my feelings. Including them knowing all my feelings in a much greater complexity, depth and detail than I share on the Internet.
We all draw our lines where we draw em…deal.

 

[Benadam]

We won’t have to rail against it for Catholics to be unacceptable. If the culture war is lost. Our very presence is eneogh. Catholic beliefs in this society are like a conscience in a person who wants it dead and buried. I see what you are saying. I just don’t think it’s lost

 

[Edward_H]

I think we need to temper the use of the word offensive. Way over used. We’ve become practiced in being offended.

If we’re not good and true in what seems like little things (cake baking, making excuses for not standing up to our principles) there won’t be a strong enough base and example of courage in our culture to send men into battle, at least not good and heroic ones.

 

[LadyLillian]

My question is, would we (Catholics) be allowed to bake a cake for a gay wedding?

Yes, I believe one could.

To those of you saying “no”, are you also going to object to making wedding cakes for divorced Catholics who have not gotten annulments? Or Christians intending to use birth control? Or heterosexual couples that are unable to engage in intercourse (after injury for example)?

 

[Kei]

To those of you saying “no”, are you also going to object to making wedding cakes for divorced Catholics who have not gotten annulments? Or Christians intending to use birth control? Or heterosexual couples that are unable to engage in intercourse (after injury for example)?

First scenario, if I knew they were previously validly married Catholics, then yes.
Second scenario, if I knew they were Christians planning to use birth control, then yes.
Once again, if I knew that the marriage would be invalid, then yes.

 

[LadyLillian]

I’m glad you are consistent–plenty of Christians are not.

 

[Kei]

Not all Christians are Catholic.
If I had not the Church, I would not think there was something wrong with impotent people getting married.
But I do, so I can know.

The difference between these things and a homosexual wedding is that these are more difficult to tell, and would usually require prying into the matter beyond what is looked kindly upon.

 

[LadyLillian]

It’s not uncommon at all to find out your divorced friends are getting remarried.

Or another really common one is Catholics having invalid ceremonies. You see Catholic couples or couple in which one party is Catholic, getting married with a non-Catholic officiant or at some location that is not a Catholic Church.

And most Catholics don’t even raise an eyebrow, but they berate gay couples.

 

[Kei]

Divorce itself is unlawful, but if the topic is about a friend, then hopefully they realize that I’m Catholic and don’t see their “remarriage” as lawful, if they were previously properly “married”.

 

[1ke]

You see Catholic couples or couple in which one party is Catholic, getting married with a non-Catholic officiant or at some location that is not a Catholic Church.

Which does not mean the marriage is an invalid one.

In all of these various could-be-sinful scenarios you’ve contrived, one does not know they are invalid or sinful per se. We take things at face value, we cast them in the most charitable light, and we act on the facts that we have. A same sex attempt at marriage is invalid and sinful, per se. And you can know that on the face of the request, without prying, without assuming. So the scenarios are not equivalent.

That said, I maintain my position regarding the morality as it pertains to cooperation with evil.

 

[LadyLillian]

Most gay weddings are not sinful, and all the scenarios I gave are invalid.

For a gay wedding to be sinful, the engaged parties must know gay marriage is wrong, and by “know” I do not mean have it yelled at them by street preachers who call them fags. I certainly would support gay marriage if I was not Catholic and had not heard the Church’s revealed teaching.

 

[Wolfie]

I’m a combat veteran, I am describing how I actually feel about the flippant use of a POW situation in comparison to a person who voluntarily gets paid money to bake cakes for the public while they are 100% free to choose any other vocation.