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Kei
Guest
Objectively grave matter is still grave…
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Luce7
Guest
So you would choose not to “keep your opinion to yourself” and tell a gay couple whatever your religion says you should?
Exactly how far do you think that will get you in terms of bringing them to the truth? How many gay people are going to let you get past the first sentence? Most would just tell you to get lost, because if they want to be educated in catholicism…they’ll do what I did a few months ago and walk into a catholic church!
That “violation of your religious freedom” could easily be a violation of someone else’s right to buy a wedding cake unmolested by religion LOL! You have the right to free speech but nobody has the right to marginalise, discriminate or shame another person, which is what refusing to bake a cake in this situation would inevitably do.
SO many people have tried to give me “good news.” I walked past every single one. For 30 years. And I walked past anyone who tried to push their opinions on me twice as fast. THAT is how well the current teaching is going in terms of saving souls. It shows in the lack of butts on pews on Sunday.
Exactly how far do you think that will get you in terms of bringing them to the truth? How many gay people are going to let you get past the first sentence? Most would just tell you to get lost, because if they want to be educated in catholicism…they’ll do what I did a few months ago and walk into a catholic church!
That “violation of your religious freedom” could easily be a violation of someone else’s right to buy a wedding cake unmolested by religion LOL! You have the right to free speech but nobody has the right to marginalise, discriminate or shame another person, which is what refusing to bake a cake in this situation would inevitably do.
SO many people have tried to give me “good news.” I walked past every single one. For 30 years. And I walked past anyone who tried to push their opinions on me twice as fast. THAT is how well the current teaching is going in terms of saving souls. It shows in the lack of butts on pews on Sunday.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
Just a guess, but better than supporting a lie and having them find out it’s a lie later and blaming you for it?
Another “it’s free speech BUT” comment.
Free speech by definition gives the right to marginalize or it’s not free speech.
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Edward_H
Guest
I could only say the truth.
“I cannot materially cooperate with an act against the “Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” (language from the Declaration of Independence). Here’s a list of very good bakers that you can count on. I wish you sincerely the highest and greatest good.”
As Saint Mother Teresa said, paraphrasing…God doesn’t ask us to be successful only faithful (to your point about “how far do you think that will get you in terms of bringing them to the truth.”)
God sorts out the graces from our acts of faith, hope and charity. It may not lead to any effect with that couple, but within the supernatural plane of action it can only lead to GREAT good, somewhere in the world, somewhere in time.
Ours is to be faithful in the little things.
By the way…no one has a right to buy a wedding cake unconditionally. Preposterous. No wonder the world is so confused. Most people have no idea why we have rights?
Why do we have rights? So we can effect duties. This point will get lost on most people.
“I cannot materially cooperate with an act against the “Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God” (language from the Declaration of Independence). Here’s a list of very good bakers that you can count on. I wish you sincerely the highest and greatest good.”
As Saint Mother Teresa said, paraphrasing…God doesn’t ask us to be successful only faithful (to your point about “how far do you think that will get you in terms of bringing them to the truth.”)
God sorts out the graces from our acts of faith, hope and charity. It may not lead to any effect with that couple, but within the supernatural plane of action it can only lead to GREAT good, somewhere in the world, somewhere in time.
Ours is to be faithful in the little things.
By the way…no one has a right to buy a wedding cake unconditionally. Preposterous. No wonder the world is so confused. Most people have no idea why we have rights?
Why do we have rights? So we can effect duties. This point will get lost on most people.
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Luce7
Guest
Noone has the right to buy a wedding cake unconditionally?
Well, everyone has the right to go where they please and do as they please, within the limits of the law, without fear of attack, discrimination, harrassment, belittlement or public shaming. And without being subject to sexism, racism etc…
It simply isn’t appropriate in this day and age to openly discriminate, and people who do so on the grounds of religion give religion a bad name.
Regardless of religious point of view, I’m certain this scenario would hold up in court as discrimination based on sexuality which WOULD get that baker into a great deal of trouble.
Well, everyone has the right to go where they please and do as they please, within the limits of the law, without fear of attack, discrimination, harrassment, belittlement or public shaming. And without being subject to sexism, racism etc…
It simply isn’t appropriate in this day and age to openly discriminate, and people who do so on the grounds of religion give religion a bad name.
Regardless of religious point of view, I’m certain this scenario would hold up in court as discrimination based on sexuality which WOULD get that baker into a great deal of trouble.
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Benadam
Guest
Can you expand on that as it pertains to a gay couple and their ‘Right’ to buy a the wedding cake?
Yes rights come with duties.
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Edward_H
Guest
No they don’t.
You don’t have 1/10th of the rights you think you have.
You can’t walk into someone’s house, you can’t walk into a surgical room as “you please”.
You can’t buy medicines as “you please”.
I could go on all night.
People have no idea what rights are, where they come from, and their “ordering” and purpose. Would take years.
You don’t have 1/10th of the rights you think you have.
You can’t walk into someone’s house, you can’t walk into a surgical room as “you please”.
You can’t buy medicines as “you please”.
I could go on all night.
People have no idea what rights are, where they come from, and their “ordering” and purpose. Would take years.
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Luce7
Guest
I said within the limits of the law. It’s not legal to walk into an operating room, in the USA it’s not legal to walk onto someone’s property without permission, is it?
Buying a wedding cake doesn’t typically involve doing anything illegal. Actually it doesn’t technically involve anything immoral, unless you try to buy it from an internet catholic!
I’m starting to think my local priest is right…and that I should avoid the catholic internet altogether…
Buying a wedding cake doesn’t typically involve doing anything illegal. Actually it doesn’t technically involve anything immoral, unless you try to buy it from an internet catholic!
I’m starting to think my local priest is right…and that I should avoid the catholic internet altogether…
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Edward_H
Guest
Maybe learn first about rights.
Rights are given by God according to our nature, which presents us certain duties.
Rights are given by God according to our nature, which presents us certain duties.
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Luce7
Guest
Rights are also legal. Do you see catholic doctrine prescribing state laws?
More importantly do you think state laws can be overidden by catholic doctrine?
More importantly do you think state laws can be overidden by catholic doctrine?
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OsculeturMeOsculo
Guest
Is there a good reason to do it?
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Rau
Guest
I think they express a view (when asked) about the morality of what is being done. No person need be berated.And most Catholics don’t even raise an eyebrow, but they berate gay couples.
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Edward_H
Guest
Yes, natural law trumps all law, even canon law.
If Pope Francis decided to make a canon law that went against natural law, there’d be no compelling force to it. We could ignore it.
If Pope Francis decided to make a canon law that went against natural law, there’d be no compelling force to it. We could ignore it.
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Rau
Guest
The Catholic seeks to be excused from cooperating with the evil (as he/his religion sees it) of another. We ordinarily grant persons reasonable freedom to live in accord with the principles of their religion.
Indeed, but he did not praise their evil acts or celebrate when they exhtorted.
Absolutely, though this does not entail joining in celebrations of immoral acts.
No one advocates discrimination on the basis of how a persons feels, or who he is attracted to, or other aspects of his sexuality. What a person does - his acts - are another matter, and no Catholic is morally obliged to cooperate in the immoral acts of others.
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PickyPicky
Guest
My view is that anyone who thinks some law offends their conscience may decline to obey that law. In a democratic society, however, (a) they are obliged to decline to obey only if the action they are being asked to take is seriously wrong, and (b) they are obliged to decline only if that wrong outweighs any hurt which refusal to obey might cause, and ( c ) they should decline to obey only if they are willing openly to accept the penalties which that unlawful action entails. Otherwise, in a democratic society, they are just parading in a pharisaical manner. All that, of course, is a matter for the bakers’ conscience to determine.
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I didn’t read through the entire thread, but if one owns one’s own bakery, there is a simple way to avoid doing cakes that one finds offensive.
Have a catalog of the designs you WILL do. Do not deviate from the designs, with the exception of, perhaps, colors or flowers. This is standard policy in a lot of grocery store bakeries (mainly because they don’t always have decorators who are trained or creative enough to do custom designs.) Do not provide the cake toppers. Offer a limit on how customized the cake can be.
You might lose some business, but if it’s worth it to you to avoid controversy, your customers can’t say that they were discriminated against because they wanted a cake design you don’t offer. “If it’s not in the book, we don’t make it. Sorry.”
I work in a grocery store bakery. We don’t do any licensed character cakes that are not in our catalog because of copyright violation laws. We can’t do Minecraft, because we don’t have license to do it. We can do Mickey Mouse, but it has to be the design in the book. No one can accuse us of discriminating; if we can’t do it for you, we can’t do it for anyone. Feel free to find another bakery in town that’s willing to do it.
Have a catalog of the designs you WILL do. Do not deviate from the designs, with the exception of, perhaps, colors or flowers. This is standard policy in a lot of grocery store bakeries (mainly because they don’t always have decorators who are trained or creative enough to do custom designs.) Do not provide the cake toppers. Offer a limit on how customized the cake can be.
You might lose some business, but if it’s worth it to you to avoid controversy, your customers can’t say that they were discriminated against because they wanted a cake design you don’t offer. “If it’s not in the book, we don’t make it. Sorry.”
I work in a grocery store bakery. We don’t do any licensed character cakes that are not in our catalog because of copyright violation laws. We can’t do Minecraft, because we don’t have license to do it. We can do Mickey Mouse, but it has to be the design in the book. No one can accuse us of discriminating; if we can’t do it for you, we can’t do it for anyone. Feel free to find another bakery in town that’s willing to do it.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Good for you guys! So many folks don’t give a thought to intellectual property. I will always choose do do business with a vendor who respects the rules.
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StephenButler
Guest
So, your argument is that if gay people hide in the closet it is okay to do business with them? So long as the baker is comfortably ignorant, all is well?
The baker has a simple moral choice, and the truth is inescapable. All the dogma, scripture, and legalistic rule lawyering will not change it.
One, the baker can choose to make a selfish choice, choosing his own comfort and his Christian rules, to use his faith as an excuse for cruelty.
Two, the baker can make a selfless choice, step outside of his comfort, and choose to treat his gay neighbors with the same kindness and decency they would offer to any of us.
There is no moral ambiguity. We have a duty to be good neighbors in a secular society. We do not have a duty to shun people who love differently than we do.
The baker has a simple moral choice, and the truth is inescapable. All the dogma, scripture, and legalistic rule lawyering will not change it.
One, the baker can choose to make a selfish choice, choosing his own comfort and his Christian rules, to use his faith as an excuse for cruelty.
Two, the baker can make a selfless choice, step outside of his comfort, and choose to treat his gay neighbors with the same kindness and decency they would offer to any of us.
There is no moral ambiguity. We have a duty to be good neighbors in a secular society. We do not have a duty to shun people who love differently than we do.
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StephenButler
Guest
Insisting on the right to persecute a minority is not freedom. It is the definition of tyranny.
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StephenButler
Guest
Love is always valuable.
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