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Teek
Guest
Million dollar question:
Does this also apply to Muslim run bakeries?
Does this also apply to Muslim run bakeries?
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simpleas
Guest
Maybe some Catholic bakers are already baking wedding cakes for gay couples, I haven’t found an article where a Catholic baker is accused of not serving gay marriage couples, only Christians…
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PaulinVA
Guest
Yes, there probably are a lot of liberal cake makers and this was probably a test case. Sure, the gay couple could have gone somewhere else. They didn’t.
“It’s against my conscience to make wedding cakes for black people because it’s a waste of resources”. Do I get a first amendment exception for that?
How about, “I am a Muslim butcher and refuse to sell meat to infidels because all of my meat is halal and it would be a waste to sell it to infidels”. How about that muslim butcher is the only one in town?
“It’s against my conscience to make wedding cakes for black people because it’s a waste of resources”. Do I get a first amendment exception for that?
How about, “I am a Muslim butcher and refuse to sell meat to infidels because all of my meat is halal and it would be a waste to sell it to infidels”. How about that muslim butcher is the only one in town?
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Teek
Guest
This is a blog run by a conservative Christian. He uses a sense of humor not everyone will agree with. I don’t think I do.
What is valuable is that it shows him going in to various bakeries and asking for a gay wedding cake and being refused.
What is valuable is that it shows him going in to various bakeries and asking for a gay wedding cake and being refused.
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PetraG
Guest
The woman who went to the Oregon bakery was a regular customer who honestly thought the bakery would bake her a cake. It was not a “test case.”
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Teek
Guest
What about traditional Jews? They cannot bake a cake for women who are remarrying without a divorce (they are called agunot). Or their children (called mamzerim). Or their children’s children. Eternally. And religiously.
They can’t bake a cake for them. They can’t do the fancy marriage contract certificate in their calligraphy stores. Make the dresses. None of it.
Should they be taken to court to be forced to do these things against their religious beliefs, too?
Or should people who (by their religious practices) have been labeled agunot simply find someone who can and will without violating their beliefs?
These women and their children are pursuing legally valid marriages. Their rights are protected by law. They cannot be discriminated against, just like homosexual couples seeking marriage.
But does the Jewish baker still have to provide the cake for the wedding that their religious beliefs hold to be forbidden?
I would say no! They will pay a price for this—fewer customers to bake cakes for. The business will go to people willing to bake the cakes. They can spread the news to all of their community and let the business repercussions run their course.
But they cannot take the rights of people not to participate in something they believe to be wrong away from them.
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PaulinVA
Guest
Well, a test case is one that intends to set precedence, so, yes, this is a test case. They decided to make it one some time after the refusal.
That’s their right.
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Benadam
Guest
Well, a conscience isn’t violated by a waste of material goods. But we are talking about a conscience formed from morals that have been around for millenia and has provided social structures and provided for marginalized people like the black couple. Your first example is only an example because it provides contrast afforded it by people following the conscience you would allow violence to.
As for the Muslim, I wouldn’t want to buy meat from him. His conscience isn’t something I need to change. And that’s the crux of the matter here.
As for the Muslim, I wouldn’t want to buy meat from him. His conscience isn’t something I need to change. And that’s the crux of the matter here.
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Crocus
Guest
Sorry I asked. I wouldn’t want to bake that cake either. 
Edit to reference the image of a cake supposedly baked for the purpose of “promoting Catholic views on homosexuality.” Again
Edit to reference the image of a cake supposedly baked for the purpose of “promoting Catholic views on homosexuality.” Again
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Benadam
Guest
I would move because it would be obvious to me all my neighbors, the whole town considers me an infidel. I mean since the butcher must be serving everyone else in town.
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Gorgias
Guest
Well, one of the two questions is a legal question, after all…
Yeah… see how well this turned out for those who held different religious beliefs in Germany in the 1930s…
I agree completely! So… suing someone because he has religious beliefs is “treating them with decency”?
Please note that Jesus was calling them to abandon their sins and turn back to God. That’s not what you’re asking for here, now, is it?
It’s not a “disagreement with Catholic dogma” that’s in play here. You keep confusing the issue. The issue is “participation in sinful acts”. Celebrating a marriage that is, at its heart, not seen as a marriage by the Church, and celebrating the sinful acts that are intrinsically part of the context of that marriage, is what’s in play.
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PaulinVA
Guest
So, your answer to discrimination encountered in the marketplace is for the person discriminated against to move?PaulinVA:
I would move because it would be obvious to me all my neighbors, the whole town considers me an infidel. I mean since the butcher must be serving everyone else in town.
What you have to remember is that conscience objections can come from anywhere, not just well thought out opinions of a two-thousand-year-old religion.
Allow one, and you have to allow them all.
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Rau
Guest
So you would be comfortable to initiate an event to celebrate the decision of two men to marry (ie. to publicly formalize a sexual relationship), but not to design cakes for Gay weddings…
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
They would be my relatives or my close friends who are like family. I support and show love for my family or very close friends. Same way I would go to their wedding or send a gift (already happened) or go to their funeral or partner’s funeral and pray (already happened). If Jesus wants to send me to hell for that, I’ll take a risk. If you want to tell me I’m going to hell for that, feel free, it’s not going to change my mind.
I’m not comfortable doing it for total strangers or worst of all to make money off it though.
I’m not comfortable doing it for total strangers or worst of all to make money off it though.
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Benadam
Guest
It really depends on whether or not their practices endanger society. Like a religion that promotes polygamy. I wonder if SS couples would prohibit that form of marriage? The first ammendment is the product of men who would find SS marriage foreign. I would say they would find it too disordered a form of the matrimonial bond as polygamy. No more so and they outlawed yhat.
Not a possibility. Imo. No one has a problem selling to Catholics. We don’t present social change that violates anyone. Aftrr all this social structure we live in was built by people who share our values. People who don’t want to force a ‘minority’ among us to do something that violates their consciences. Conscience is sacred to those that originated this society. Too bad it isn’t to those that want to violate ours.
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Rau
Guest
I didn’t think that was his question at all. I thought he was asking whether a course of action was permissible under catholic moral principles/guidelines.
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Rau
Guest
And when 2 men choose a sexual relationship? Is that made good because they love each other?
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Rau
Guest
They don’t check anything, the customers “announce”.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
To whoever said we need to keep the First Amendment for “important things”, this is pretty important. Just as we do not want to roll back civil rights law, we also don’t want some Jewish person being compelled to make a custom Kristallnacht cake.
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Rau
Guest
So religious freedom is only acknowledged for hermits living apart from others?
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