Could a priest deny communion to someone who is openly pro choice?

[Rence]

Priests have to follow the Church teachings. Sadly, not all do. I quoted the Church teachings to you.
It is enough for anyone to reject or have an obstinate doubt about an infallible teaching to make it heresy. In the case of abortion rejecting or having an obstinate doubt about the teaching is heresy and a sin of grave matter and such a person may not receive Communion. Such a person is not required to have an abortion or encourage abortion to have committed heresy and a sin of grave matter.

You’re right, priests do have to follow Church teachings. And you’re right that sadly, not all do. The two priests that I consulted do follow Church teachings and are quite conservative. So again, I trust them, and I take their word over those of someone online. True, CAF is a great resource, but I’ll go with the real live priests over someone online. Afterall, they know me and I know them. A person online doesn’t know me, and I don’t know them.

 

[thistle]

You’re right, priests do have to follow Church teachings. And you’re right that sadly, not all do. The two priests that I consulted do follow Church teachings and are quite conservative. So again, I trust them, and I take their word over those of someone online. True, CAF is a great resource, but I’ll go with the real live priests over someone online. Afterall, they know me and I know them. A person online doesn’t know me, and I don’t know them.

The Church teachings:

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

The Church teachings are clear. Denial or obstinate doubts about any infallible teachings is heresy. The Church does NOT teach that you can deny infallible teachings (like abortion) but its only heresy and a grave sin if you have an abortion or encourage one. That would be ridiculous.
A person commits heresy by denying or having an obstinate doubt about any infallible teaching.

 

[markeverett49]

As for being “openly pro-choice”, not sure…as thistle says, it could be heresy, but as we said somewhere else, if she disagrees but is obedient to the Church and does not “promote” abortion…

This won’t wash. To publicly disagree with the Church’s view on abortion amounts to promotion of abortion. It’s a claim that there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[Faithdancer]

The Church teachings:

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

CCC 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

The Church teachings are clear. Denial or obstinate doubts about any infallible teachings is heresy. The Church does NOT teach that you can deny infallible teachings (like abortion) but its only heresy and a grave sin if you have an abortion or encourage one. That would be ridiculous.
A person commits heresy by denying or having an obstinate doubt about any infallible teaching.

Thanks for posting these Catechism clips, thistle. I did the same thing last week and got jumped, saying that I was using the term “heresy” too loosely in applying it to those Catholics who agitate for gay “marriage.” I still hold to my view though. Since marriage-as-a-Holy-Sacrament-between-a-man-and-a-woman-only is dogma, and to promote gay “marriage” denies this Church teaching, such promotion ought rightly to be called heresy. Well, scratch a pro-abortion Catholic and you’ll find a pro-gay “marriage” Catholic as well, that’s my hypothesis.

 

[Crescentinus]

Canon law anyone?

 

[Faithdancer]

Thanks for posting these Catechism clips, thistle. I did the same thing last week and got jumped, saying that I was using the term “heresy” too loosely in applying it to those Catholics who agitate for gay “marriage.” I still hold to my view though. Since marriage-as-a-Holy-Sacrament-between-a-man-and-a-woman-only is dogma, and to promote gay “marriage” denies this Church teaching, such promotion ought rightly to be called heresy. Well, scratch a pro-abortion Catholic and you’ll find a pro-gay “marriage” Catholic as well, that’s my hypothesis.

Sorry, correction, I should say “Canon law” and Catechism clips. Anyway, hard to understand how Catholics can continue to reinvent their own policies on issues such as abortion and gay “marriage” when Church teachings are so crystal clear. One just can’t be secularist in their thinking on these issues, obstinately denying Catholic dogma and doctrine, and *not * be heretical.

 

[thistle]

Canon law anyone?

This the 4th time I’ve posted it in this thread. Does nobody read the posts?

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

 

[Rence]

The Church teachings are clear. Denial or obstinate doubts about any infallible teachings is heresy. The Church does NOT teach that you can deny infallible teachings (like abortion) but its only heresy and a grave sin if you have an abortion or encourage one. That would be ridiculous.
A person commits heresy by denying or having an obstinate doubt about any infallible teaching.

I don’t deny Church teaching, and I don’t have obstinate doubt. Again, you, being a stranger, do not know me. The priests that I have been in counsel with do. I’ll go with their counsel, rather than some stranger online.

 

[Timothysis]

I don’t deny Church teaching, and I don’t have obstinate doubt. Again, you, being a stranger, do not know me. The priests that I have been in counsel with do. I’ll go with their counsel, rather than some stranger online.

Rence,

Thistle is the champion of pasting from the catechism and loves to employ all of the good catholic keywords.

This argument has surfaced here before. I posted the parable of the two sons before as an example of your particular frame of mind. A refresher;
*
“But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first, and said, ‘Son, go work in my vineyard.’ He answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind, and went. He came to the second, and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but he didn’t go. Which of the two did the will of his father?”

They said to him, “The first.”
*

Its the same as the *“as long as you live under my roof you’re going to obey my rules” *line. You might not like it but as long as you obey things are ok. I have always read and understood that one may hold a personal opinion that varies from Church teaching AS LONG AS one does not counsel, advise or encourage others to act, which is the position you claim for yourself. I find it mind boggling that people expect the Catholic faithful - all one billion plus - to be completely lock-stepped in even their own personal thoughts and opinions.

 

[Listener]

This the 4th time I’ve posted it in this thread. Does nobody read the posts?

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

You can quote this all you want, but I don’t believe that it applies here.

Heresy is a sin against the first commandment. Many kinds of heresies have happened since the time of Christ. Some examples of heresy are the Albeginsian Heresy, the Gnostic Heresy, and the Jansen Heresy. They always have something to do with Catholic Dogma rather than Catholic morals. I think you could be called a heretic if you went on National TV and taught that there are really four persons in one God, or something like that.

I think that Rence’s priest is probably correct, since Rence clearly believes that abortion is wrong. As far as the Catholic Catechism is concerned, it states very clearly in there that a person is guilty of abortion if they formally cooperate in an abortion. This would mean having an abortion, performing an abortion, or maybe even giving someone a ride to the hospital so they could have an abortion. I think that if you have some kind of a vague “pro-choice” attitude, you’re probably not guilty of much of anything, unless you really act on your beliefs. You can look high and low, but you won’t find the word “pro-choice” anywhere in the Catholic Catechism.

I personally find it kind of depressing to believe that a large number of the women that I see at Mass on Sunday are heretics and headed straight to hell.

 

[thistle]

You can quote this all you want, but I don’t believe that it applies here.

Heresy is a sin against the first commandment. Many kinds of heresies have happened since the time of Christ. Some examples of heresy are the Albeginsian Heresy, the Gnostic Heresy, and the Jansen Heresy. They always have something to do with Catholic Dogma rather than Catholic morals. I think you could be called a heretic if you went on National TV and taught that there are really four persons in one God, or something like that.

I think that Rence’s priest is probably correct, since Rence clearly believes that abortion is wrong. As far as the Catholic Catechism is concerned, it states very clearly in there that a person is guilty of abortion if they formally cooperate in an abortion. This would mean having an abortion, performing an abortion, or maybe even giving someone a ride to the hospital so they could have an abortion. I think that if you have some kind of a vague “pro-choice” attitude, you’re probably not guilty of much of anything, unless you really act on your beliefs. You can look high and low, but you won’t find the word “pro-choice” anywhere in the Catholic Catechism.

I personally find it kind of depressing to believe that a large number of the women that I see at Mass on Sunday are heretics and headed straight to hell.

Heresy is a sin of grave matter against ALL infallible teachings and not just the First Commandment. I don’t know where you got such an idea. Its incorrect. I already quoted several times in this thread from canon law and the CCC what heresy is.

Secondly you don’t seem to understand the difference between someone who knows abortion is a sin but has one anyway or cooperates with someone else having an abortion, and someone who denies the Church teaching on abortion.

To deny the Church teaching on abortion is heresy.
To believe the Church teaching on abortion but have an abortion or cooperate in an abortion is not heresy but is a mortal sin that incurs automatic excommunication.

Your comment that Rence clearly believes abortion is wrong contradicts the statement of Rence.

“the three priests I have shared my views with told me that I am still fit for Communion because I don’t act on my belief. I don’t picket, I don’t lobby, I don’t help or participate or even encourage abortion. I will share my opinion if asked, but I will reiterate Church teaching.** But I truly do believe that in certain circumstances it’s a choice that a woman should continue to be able to make (such as when her health is at risk, or even taking emergency contraception at the ER after a rape), and I don’t believe autonomy and the freedom to make decisions that direct her healthcare should ever by trumped by another person’s religious beliefs.** My priests have told me I can still have Communion with these views, and because I don’t participate/encourage/aid or have anything to do with abortion aside from my own personal beliefs and values.”

The part I highlighted shows Rence does NOT believe the Church teaching.

 

[Rence]

Your comment that Rence clearly believes abortion is wrong contradicts the statement of Rence.

“the three priests I have shared my views with told me that I am still fit for Communion because I don’t act on my belief. I don’t picket, I don’t lobby, I don’t help or participate or even encourage abortion. I will share my opinion if asked, but I will reiterate Church teaching.** But I truly do believe that in certain circumstances it’s a choice that a woman should continue to be able to make (such as when her health is at risk, or even taking emergency contraception at the ER after a rape), and I don’t believe autonomy and the freedom to make decisions that direct her healthcare should ever by trumped by another person’s religious beliefs.** My priests have told me I can still have Communion with these views, and because I don’t participate/encourage/aid or have anything to do with abortion aside from my own personal beliefs and values.”

The part I highlighted shows Rence does NOT believe the Church teaching.

Rence said " I truly do believe that in certain circumstances it’s a choice that a woman should continue to be able to make (such as when her health is at risk, or even taking emergency contraception at the ER after a rape), and I don’t believe autonomy and the freedom to make decisions that direct her healthcare should ever by trumped by another person’s religious beliefs" and I stand by it. It’s their choice. Yes, they should choose correctly. But they should still make the correct choice on their own, without having their autonomy or medical decisions trumped by an outside party. Abortion is still wrong, and women should choose not to have them. But I do also understand that not everyone is Catholic and not everyone will choose to follow the Catholic Church’s teaching and rather adhere to the teachings of their own faith.

 

[thistle]

Rence said " I truly do believe that in certain circumstances it’s a choice that a woman should continue to be able to make (such as when her health is at risk, or even taking emergency contraception at the ER after a rape), and I don’t believe autonomy and the freedom to make decisions that direct her healthcare should ever by trumped by another person’s religious beliefs" and I stand by it. It’s their choice. Yes, they should choose correctly. But they should still make the correct choice on their own, without having their autonomy or medical decisions trumped by an outside party. Abortion is still wrong, and women should choose not to have them. But I do also understand that not everyone is Catholic and not everyone will choose to follow the Catholic Church’s teaching and rather adhere to the teachings of their own faith.

I quoted that just before you did. What is your point.
Rence is saying that in some circumstances direct abortion is okay (e.g. rape, mother’s life in danger). Such a belief is against the Church teachings. Direct abortion is NEVER okay. It is ALWAYS MURDER.

 

[Rence]

I quoted that just before you did. What is your point.
Rence is saying that in some circumstances direct abortion is okay (e.g. rape, mother’s life in danger). Such a belief is against the Church teachings. Direct abortion is NEVER okay. It is ALWAYS MURDER.

The point is, I never said it was okay.

 

[thistle]

The point is, I never said it was okay.

In case I have misunderstood what you have been saying could you clarify for me if you believe the Church teaching that all direct abortion is wrong and is a sin of grave matter and that Catholics must obey this teaching, or do you believe that it would be okay in some situations to have a direct abortion (e.g. rape or mother’s life in danger)?

 

[Rence]

In case I have misunderstood what you have been saying could you clarify for me if you believe the Church teaching that all direct abortion is wrong and is a sin of grave matter and that Catholics must obey this teaching, or do you believe that it would be okay in some situations to have a direct abortion (e.g. rape or mother’s life in danger)?

Yes, I believe the Church is very clear on its teaching that all direct abortion is wrong is a sin of grave matter and that Catholics must obey this teaching.

 

[thistle]

Yes, I believe the Church is very clear on its teaching that all direct abortion is wrong is a sin of grave matter and that Catholics must obey this teaching.

Okay. Thanks. Nothing more to discuss on that matter.

On the general matter of what constitutes heresy the Church is clear. To deny or have obstinate doubts about any infallible teaching is heresy. Nothing additional is required for it to be heresy.

 

[Rence]

Okay. Thanks. Nothing more to discuss on that matter.

On the general matter of what constitutes heresy the Church is clear. To deny or have obstinate doubts about any infallible teaching is heresy. Nothing additional is required for it to be heresy.

Yeah, we don’t need to discuss anymore about how I am not in heresy because I’m not, and I already knew that. We have differing beliefs on HOW abortion should be stopped. That’s not heresy.

 

[Elizabeth502]

thistle,

merely from what Rence has described on this and other threads, it would be difficult to assume that her position constitutes “obstinancy” (=key part of definition). It seems to me that only she would know whether whatever full intellectual assent she can or cannot give is “obstinate” or merely a doubt.

For example, many CAF’ers have an intellectual resistance to the issue of contraception within marriage, but they do comply anyway. They are also not “in heresy.”

Proportionally speaking, I wonder if there is any value in going after what you think is in Rence’s head, given the many dozens of CAF posters identifying as Catholic who are self-described obstinate on various Catholic moral issues on this forum, and who admit to promulgating their views in opposition to Catholic theology, openly, within their communities. She says, by contrast, she does not do that. I think charity requires that we take her at her word.

 

[Lapey]

But I truly do believe that in certain circumstances it’s a choice that a woman should continue to be able to make (such as when her health is at risk, or even taking emergency contraception at the ER after a rape), and I don’t believe autonomy and the freedom to make decisions that direct her healthcare should ever by trumped by another person’s religious beliefs. My priests have told me I can still have Communion with these views, and because I don’t participate/encourage/aid or have anything to do with abortion aside from my own personal beliefs and values.

Okay, let me get this straight, when, and at what point is it ok to kill the child???