Could Communism/Anarchism be the ideal christian society?

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alliWantisGod

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Hello Everyone

Okay so some of you may think I am crazy for asking this, but it is simply just a thought. So anyways… Communism is the abolishment of all classes into a Utopian society where each person works accordingly and is paid according to their abilities and needs, as stated by Karl Marx. Now in reality communism is just a means to anarchism, which is the abolition of the state (government) and is replaced by the organization of a voluntary cooperative society. Now the Marxist-Leninist idea of communism was that the working class would rise above the bourgeoisie but there will be a central committee that governs the people to the anarchist utopia, and then the state will whither away once anarchism has been reached.

My question is… could Marx have actually successfully predicted what heaven is like with his vision of communism? could this utopian idea possibly be the ideal Christian society? There would be no need for the state to intervene as everybody gets along well and cooperates for the betterment of society. everybody volunteers to work for the benefit of others without incentives, and there is no need for classes in society. this could parallel well with Matthew 22:30 when Christ described marriage in heaven as no one will be married but be like angels in heaven… could that be interpreted as a classless society (no gender) where everyone lives in utopian happiness with God? Now I know Marx and Engels thought that the belief in God should be abolished, but why would we need to still believe in God in this “utopian society” when we already have come to know God face to face? Now pure communism is highly impossible and unrealistic, and any attempts to replicate Marx’s communism ended up in more atrocities committed than fascism or any other ideology has in the 21st century, and these were not really communism (Stalinism, Maoism, Leninism). I know I may have used the “no true Scotsman Fallacy” but if you read about Marx’s view of communism, it is really unlike what Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot turned it into. Is it also possible however that society could progress into a pure communist society? Marx did make a prediction that humanity would switch from capitalism to socialism, then to communism, and the transition would happen in developed countries. Now a lot of countries today are embracing socialist policies, so could Marx be correct? Should we put our faith in progression as maybe God is progressing humanity to a greater goal? let me know what you all think
 
Where have you seen communism succeed with religion, especially?

Under communism, religious freedom is the first freedom to go. Well, the state is considered paramount, and religion is considered a threat to the state which must be eliminated at all costs.

As to people working without any incentive, why would the average person do that? I can’t see it working, realistically.
 
Chesterton and his friends came up with Distributism. I think that is a better fit for our faith.
 
The Church has explicitly condemned Communism by name. Communism denies people the fruits of their labor and strives to make the government the source of everything necessary. Communism also denies the existence of God and enforces bad over good.

Some have equated monasteries as communistic, but this is entirelynwrong. First, monasteries are dedicated to God and to doing His Will; second, monasteries are limited to those who volunteer to join and who are accepted.

We will not have Heaven on earth until after Christ returns, and He will make it so, not us, and certainly not us if we kick God out altogether.
 
egretps said:
Chesterton and his friends came up with Distributism. I think that is a better fit for our faith.
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Hmm… Very interesting… I am going to have to look up distributism

What I guess I’m trying to say is if we look at the ideal communist society. It seems perfect. However this ideal envisioned by Marx is just what it is… An ideal. It sounds too good to be true. I compared this utopia with heaven, as there would be no classes in heaven, and everyone is equal in God’s eyes. Distribution (if there is in heaven) would be equal towards everyone
 
Acts 2:44-45 “All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one’s need.” (New American Bible Revised Edition)
 
First let me say that any description of an ideal or utopian society is likely going to describe something that is a “heaven on earth”. No one wishes to describe something that is inherently unfair. So - I would agree that we can interpret the “communist” ideal as consistent with a heavenly state…But then so can the capitalist ideal.

I can even point to a situation where the “communist” ideal is largely achieved. One only need to look at any Catholic Monastery or Convent. Here a group of people are living as one, communally, each working at what they are suited to, each receiving that which they need, and all serving each other with the common desire of wanting the best for each other (within the bounds of our fallen human nature of course).

HOWEVER - - -

Trying to translate such a community from a small scale monastic model to a large scale socioeconomic one is simply impossible.and can only result is despotic government and great inequity.

Finally - the essential difference between these ideas as proposed and as practiced is the problem of sin. In heaven there is no sin. All is just and correct so any system would work just fine. On earth sin pervades every system and government and so avery system will be flawed in it’s application.

Peace
James
 
Sharing goods and the fruits of our labor needs to be voluntary, and for the love of the Lord.

When we focus on the Lord and strive with his help to grow in loving Him, then we will love our neighbor and help those in need.
 
Sy_Noe said:
Acts 2:44-45 “All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one’s need.” (New American Bible Revised Edition)
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As I said before: Directed towards God and voluntary (not to mention given up when they realized that Christ was not returning soon).

Unlike Communism, which is 1. Godless, 2. based on the idea that man is perfectable and Communism will do it, 3. forced on the people, and 4. has never turned out well.
 
I see. So should we as Christians denounce all forms of social progress? Like by progress I mean gay rights and such alot of people talk about society progressing to a utopia so I was just curious how Christians should react to this
 
Christians should Love God and Love their neighbor as themselves.

Christians should preach the Gospel in both words and actions - with actions being the more important for words without actions is hypocrisy.

As to what we should denounce…See comment one above…What shows the greatest Love?

Peace
James
 
In communism, the individual exists for the benefit of the state. In Catholicism, the community exists for the benefit of the individual.

Put “Catholic subsidiarity” and “Catholic solidarity” into your search engine. These principles of organizing society are not met in communistic governance.
  1. The principle of subsidiarity must remain closely linked to the principle of solidarity and vice versa, since the former without the latter gives way to social privatism, while the latter without the former gives way to paternalist social assistance that is demeaning to those in need. CARITAS IN VERITATE
    OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
    BENEDICT XVI
 
alliWantisGod said:
I see. So should we as Christians denounce all forms of social progress? Like by progress I mean gay rights and such alot of people talk about society progressing to a utopia so I was just curious how Christians should react to this
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Are you equating social progress with movement towards Communism?
 
Sure.

Gadhafi, and Sadam Hussein tried to combine socialism with Islam.

Yes, a true Christian society would not have social classes based on differences in economic power. However- is this actually possible in this world?

Also distinctions in human power are not in accordance with Christian ‘perfection’- since every soul should enjoy the freedom of a child of God. So, yes, anarchy seems to be Christian.

But this is only in theory. As long as people are on earth (with differences in effort, ability, ambition), there are bound to be differences in power, wealth, status. This is a bad thing, but can’t be helped, since we all live with the consequences of Adam’s sin.

I think the most Christian form of society would be some kind of Christian monarchy/theocracy, where the New Testament is taken as the sole legislative document.

I think also the ‘anti-civ’ movement of John Zerzan, which advocates a radical return to nature, would be the closest to the Garden of Eden, and so would most lead to happiness.

Or, if everyone become Carthusians, and the whole world operated like a giant monastery…

The current social order is fundamentally evil, so whatever is an alternative (anarchism, socialism, primitivism, theocracy, etc.) helps to shake thing up, is good.

I suppose this desire for a shake up is part of the appeal of Trump…
 
Qoeleth said:
Sure.

Gadhafi, and Sadam Hussein tried to combine socialism with Islam.

Yes, a true Christian society would not have social classes based on differences in economic power. However- is this actually possible in this world?

Also distinctions in human power are not in accordance with Christian ‘perfection’- since every soul should enjoy the freedom of a child of God. So, yes, anarchy seems to be Christian.

But this is only in theory. As long as people are on earth (with differences in effort, ability, ambition), there are bound to be differences in power, wealth, status. This is a bad thing, but can’t be helped, since we all live with the consequences of Adam’s sin.

I think the most Christian form of society would be some kind of Christian monarchy/theocracy, where the New Testament is taken as the sole legislative document.

I think also the ‘anti-civ’ movement of John Zerzan, which advocates a radical return to nature, would be the closest to the Garden of Eden, and so would most lead to happiness.

Or, if everyone become Carthusians, and the whole world operated like a giant monastery…

The current social order is fundamentally evil, so whatever is an alternative (anarchism, socialism, primitivism, theocracy, etc.) helps to shake thing up, is good.

I suppose this desire for a shake up is part of the appeal of Trump…
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Very interesting Qoeleth. Would it be a good idea though to have the new testament as a legislative document when church and state should be separate?
 
St_Francis said:
Do you think that allowing no-fault divorce and abortion is a sign of progress to a desired end?
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Of course not. I was just wondering if we should support progression as it could be God working society to a happier state, but I am confused because God fully revealed himself in Christ and left the church as the complete revelation of how to get to him. In the church, abortion and no fault divorce are wrong. But in order for us to get to God we need to still progress, by adhering and learning the church’s teaching. However many people today assume that the church is outdated and our lives are getting better. If people’s lives are getting better, then is God progressing people to him, even if they are wrong on such areas as abortion? People need may have a desire to progress to a utopian society, when in reality maybe that desire they actually want is God but they don’t know it yet
 
alliWantisGod said:
Very interesting Qoeleth. Would it be a good idea though to have the new testament as a legislative document when church and state should be separate?
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Recall that Vatican I said that it was wrong to say “Church and state” should be separate- since there is only one Truth, and only one correct system of right and wrong- taught by the Church, and applying equally to matters of the state.
 
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