Could God forgive Satan?

[Stephen_says]

I bet half of all cradle Catholics who went to Parochial school have asked that question.

It’s kind of a common, “why is the sky blue?” sort of question.

The sky is blue because blue light travels as shorter, smaller waves than other colors, so it is scattered by the molecules in Earth’s atmosphere more!

 

[Dorothy]

The story of fall of angels is a lame. Why angels should fall if they are in perfect harmony with God? It is funny that some people decide about the Satan in this thread.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ANGEL.HTM)

Bahman,

Please avail yourself of the above document. I especially recommend #5 which can be found at
“Creator of the angels who are free beings”…(General Audience: July 23, 1986)

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Bahman]

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ANGEL.HTM)

Bahman,

Please avail yourself of the above document. I especially recommend #5 which can be found at
“Creator of the angels who are free beings”…(General Audience: July 23, 1986)

Peace,

Dorothy

This is rather very long document. Could I hear your argument instead?

And a point about #5: What is wrong if one wishes to have his/her realm under his/her command? I would allow it if I was God. How this wish is against divine love if I can permit it?

 

[Dorothy]

This is rather very long document. Could I hear your argument instead?

And a point about #5: What is wrong if one wishes to have his/her realm under his/her command? I would allow it if I was God. How this wish is against divine love if I can permit it?

It is not necessary for you to read the entire document, only if you want to. I pointed out that section because I thought that would respond to what you were thinking.

Here is the best way that I can explain…perhaps others with more correct education can explain better.

The rebellious angels were given a vast intelligence which enabled them to see at a glance the consequences of their choice. The angels rebelled against God through the sin of Pride, and Jealousy.
They had free will.

All the good and beauty that they had came from God! They chose not to serve Him and acknowledge that with humility.

Peace,

Dorothy

P.S. Perhaps you can pray for understanding and read #5 again? I pray all good for you.

 

[Usagi]

But how do we know that decision is irrevocable? We have no statement from Scripture that bad angels can’t repent.

Did God tell Satan: “You have a decision to make, and your decision is for all eternity. Even if you decide to repent, it won’t matter. You will not be forgiven.”

What angel, supposedly gifted with enormous intellect, would think God was just fooling with him?

You are continuing to place the onus on God in your imagined scenario here.

The problem is not that God would refuse to forgive even in the face of sincere repentance. (God made the now-fallen angels to exist with Him for eternity just as he made the loyal angels and us.) The problem is that the fallen angels either cannot – because their nature precludes changing their decisions – or simply will not repent. The obstacle is on their end, not God’s.

Whatever the reason, what has been revealed to us about the End Times indicates that they DO NOT repent. There is still a minority stream among Christian theologians that asserts it would be to God’s greater glory and more complete triumph if all creatures were eventually to return to their intended places in His presence. I would like to believe that, but I do not see how it can be reconciled with the preponderance of data from Scripture and Tradition.

Usagi

 

[Charlemagne_III]

There is still a minority stream among Christian theologians that asserts it would be to God’s greater glory and more complete triumph if all creatures were eventually to return to their intended places in His presence. I would like to believe that, but I do not see how it can be reconciled with the preponderance of data from Scripture and Tradition.

Usagi

I agree with this conclusion. Just trying to figure out the logic of it.

Why would God create angels who **cannot **(lack free will to) or obstinately **will not **repent?

If we are to believe Scripture and tradition, Satan originally possessed great powers of intellect. If so, why would he see it as a no-brainer that it’s better in his interest to serve in heaven than to rule in hell?

 

[Stephen_says]

I agree with this conclusion. Just trying to figure out the logic of it.

Why would God create angels who **cannot **(lack free will to) or obstinately **will not **repent?

If we are to believe Scripture and tradition, Satan originally possessed great powers of intellect. If so, why would he see it as a no-brainer that it’s better in his interest to serve in heaven than to rule in hell?

Big picture: though we are of different substance, we and Angels are not all that different. We have free will and we have the capacity to love.

We don’t know all the answers, but it is revealed through history that when given a choice, some of the Angels chose not to love.

It’s not that they were made unable to repent, but that their choice was analogous to Human death. After death, we may not repent.

CCC393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”

Read more: spiritualdirection.com/2015/03/23/can-demons-repent#ixzz3hImvyhwt

After the demons were blessed with the beatific vision, they chose, for whatever reason, death over life. There is no repentance after death, so there is no repentance for demons.

 

[SonOfMan]

God’s forgiveness is always predicated on the repentance and acceptance of one’s responsibilities for the actions taken.

The question should be: Can satan repent?

…

If God gave Satan the grace to repent, he could.

 

[Kurisu35712]

I want to add that I remember reading somewhere at one point that one of the reason’s Satan’s sin was so great is because he refused to love humanity as God’s beloved creation. Whatever the source was also mentioned that, upon finding out that God was going to become human in order to save them, Satan thus rebelled against God, being too proud to serve and love humans as he was asked to do.

I don’t think any of that is canonical, but it is an interesting thought experiment. I interpreted it as, the reason for Satan’s fall was because in refusing to love humanity, refused to love God due to His intention to become one of us to save us.

 

[Dorothy]

If God gave Satan the grace to repent, he could.

Since we are finite and God is infinite, God sees the bigger picture.

God is perfect love. We cannot understand His ways.

We are made of dust, and if we die in His grace we can be united with Him in an ecstacy of love forever.

 

[SonOfMan]

Since we are finite and God is infinite, God sees the bigger picture.

God is perfect love. We cannot understand His ways.

We are made of dust, and if we die in His grace we can be united with Him in an ecstacy of love forever.

I dont see how any of that addresses what I wrote.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Big picture: though we are of different substance, we and Angels are not all that different. We have free will and we have the capacity to love.

We don’t know all the answers, but it is revealed through history that when given a choice, some of the Angels chose not to love.

It’s not that they were made unable to repent, but that their choice was analogous to Human death. After death, we may not repent.

CCC393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”

Read more: spiritualdirection.com/2015/03/23/can-demons-repent#ixzz3hImvyhwt

After the demons were blessed with the beatific vision, they chose, for whatever reason, death over life. There is no repentance after death, so there is no repentance for demons.

This is an interesting analysis. Thank you.

Would the sin of Satan and his angels be equivalent to a sin against the Holy Spirit, which Scripture tells us will not be forgiven either in this life or in the next?

Mark 3:28-30: “Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.”

 

[JerryZ]

If God gave Satan the grace to repent, he could.

And how do you know that HE did not?
We are told all human beings are given sufficient grace to be saved, some reject that grace and choose to do evil deeds. Free will is it seems very important to GOD.
The angels were created with a vastly greater intelligence. They could see GOD face to face. God gave them even more reasons to choose HIM. They chose themselves instead.

When you reject GOD you also reject the Grace offered by GOD. The more evil you become the further away from HIM you drift.

…

 

[SonOfMan]

When you reject GOD you also reject the Grace offered by GOD. The more evil you become the further away from HIM you drift…

I dont think this is true at all. We can see from the lives of many saints who were living very immoral and evil lives, who were able to turn their lives around and eventually become saints. People can reject God, but if he gives them grace they can change.

 

[GodMadeMe]

This is the question Camille Paglia once asked a nun when she was a young girl attending Catholic school.

It is an intriguing question, since it was rooted in Paglia’s understanding that God is all forgiving.

Is the answer self evident to you? If not, please speculate.

Forgiveness is eternal and universal. So yes Satan has always and forever been forgiven. But Satan has not accepted forgiveness. However, the answer to the question depends on the context and what you mean by forgiveness. Satan having the nature of an angel does not share our limitations and so his decision was absolute. Satan is forgiven, but he cannot be saved. There is no possibility of him changing his decision.

I could be wrong…

 

[Kurisu35712]

I dont think this is true at all. We can see from the lives of many saints who were living very immoral and evil lives, who were able to turn their lives around and eventually become saints. People can reject God, but if he gives them grace they can change.

Yes, people can. People are not angels, and are not separated from God by mortality and time. God can give us the grace to change because we exist in time and are in a state in which our soul can change.

The angels were created already in God’s presence and in the presence of the Beatific Vision. They had full knowledge of every consequence of their every action. Demons intentionally and consciously set themselves against the very God who created them and loved them, knowing what consequences that would bring.

Furthermore, when we reject God’s grace, we do move further and further away from Him. It is by His Grace that we are able to return to Him in the first place. Those saints were drifting further away from God. His grace allowed them to turn their lives around and they were able to humbly understand that all they have is from God.

 

[chimo]

This is the question Camille Paglia once asked a nun when she was a young girl attending Catholic school.

It is an intriguing question, since it was rooted in Paglia’s understanding that God is all forgiving.

Is the answer self evident to you? If not, please speculate.

In the type of nature God had given to the Angelic beings it was not possible for them to repent if they sinned. Why? I do not know. I will discuss a bit of this later on. Perhaps God did not want to deal with Angels sinning as He does with us. God wanted the Angels to get it right, right off the bat. I think what was incredible about God is this. He only needs our yes and He will do the rest. God for some reason would not confer His Graces until we give Him our consent. He desires this yes from Angels and from humanity. For Angels He needs it right away. Jesus had told St. Maria Faustina the reason why the Angels were punished immediately after they sinned was because of the incredible knowledge given to them. They knew what would happen to them if they sinned and yet they went ahead and sinned. Perhaps these Angels thought they would get away with it thinking this would not happen to them. Yet a change had occurred in them when they did sinned. An angel says Archbishop Fulton Sheen cannot change its mind. God had not given to Angels what He gives to us and that is the possibility to change. The change in the Angels who had sinned had given them a will that could not be saved. It is said that after we die when our souls are separated from our bodies that our wills become naturally fixed. Our wills which are part of our souls can decide for God in this life while it is connected to the body. However at death the will becomes naturally fixed. So our choices are somewhat connected to the Angels in that we need to get it right in this life just as Angel needs to get it right when they were created. It just that our time is much more extended than what an Angel has. It seems to make sense because I wondered how do souls not sinned after death. Someone said it is this love which God will give to us in its fullness. Yet I thought about this and wondered about the Holy Souls in Purgatory. They do not have this fullness as yet so why do they not sinned? A priest told me that after we die our wills become naturally fixed. It is a natural process when the soul is separated from the body. It happens so that we will not be sinning forever. May be that what happens to an angel once it sins. The will becomes naturally fixed. Since God wants our yes He needs us to be free to make that yes. So in some sense Our Lord had taken a risk by giving to us this free will. He knew the consequences of what this will mean and yet He went through creating us and the Angels.

 

[mikekle]

Yes, people can. People are not angels, and are not separated from God by mortality and time. God can give us the grace to change because we exist in time and are in a state in which our soul can change.

The angels were created already in God’s presence and in the presence of the Beatific Vision. They had full knowledge of every consequence of their every action. Demons intentionally and consciously set themselves against the very God who created them and loved them, knowing what consequences that would bring.

Furthermore, when we reject God’s grace, we do move further and further away from Him. It is by His Grace that we are able to return to Him in the first place. Those saints were drifting further away from God. His grace allowed them to turn their lives around and they were able to humbly understand that all they have is from God.

This has long been an topic of interest to me, personally, I think there is probably more to all this than we humans know about, we were only given a small piece of a much larger puzzle, Its possible we cannot even comprehend the details of ‘the fall’, and why Satan did what he did…because looking at thru human eyes,(knowing what we do about God and his nature), the fall does not make much logical sense.

I tend to think Satan is doing EXACTLY what God created him for, think about it…if Satan never fell, never took 1/3 of the angels with him, then humans come along with free will…without an ‘alternative’ to God, another choice, what other choice is there but God, so in a sense, Satan (an enemy), was needed for our free will, without Satan, who would have tempted Adam and Eve, would they have eaten from the tree if there was no one ‘whispering in their ear’? I doubt it.

 

[Elizium23]

Forgiveness is eternal and universal. So yes Satan has always and forever been forgiven. But Satan has not accepted forgiveness. However, the answer to the question depends on the context and what you mean by forgiveness. Satan having the nature of an angel does not share our limitations and so his decision was absolute. Satan is forgiven, but he cannot be saved. There is no possibility of him changing his decision.

I could be wrong…

You are wrong. Forgiveness is predicated upon repentance. Angels cannot repent, as they have made an irrevocable choice.

982 There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest. Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin.

 

[Dorothy]

You are wrong. Forgiveness is predicated upon repentance. Angels cannot repent, as they have made an irrevocable choice.

It is so good to look to the teachings of the Church instead of thinking of distorted ways to explain deep truths.