Could God recognize non-transubstantiation?

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I know that priests not in apostolic succession cannot transubstantiate the Eucharist.

What about consubstantiating it? I know this sort of thing isn’t recognized in the Catholic Church, but could God dignify a non apostolic successor with consubstantiating himself in that bread, provided the minister was sincere?
 
God can do whatever he wants (within his nature). We are limited to the sacraments he gave us, but he is not. He could transubstantiate himself in that bread (without the priest having proper succession) if he wanted to. The issue is we don’t have any knowledge of if he does.
 
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Would God not know Himself? If so, man could fool God and truth could not be known with certainty.

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The Priest is consecrated, this means he has the God given ability to tell the bread to become Christ. The Priest invokes Christ at the time of Transubstantiation.

The bread literally becomes Christ in the hands of the Priest while he is holding it. Same with the Chalice. This cannot happen with non consecrated hands, anymore than you or I could tell bread to become Christ.
 
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Episcopalian said:
I know this sort of thing isn’t recognized in the Catholic Church, but could God dignify a non apostolic successor with consubstantiating himself in that bread, provided the minister was sincere?
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Are you asking whether such a thing is merely logically possible?

Sure… all things are possible with God.

Are you asking whether we know that such a thing takes place? God hasn’t indicated that this is so, nor has Jesus indicated that anyone other than apostles (or those whom they have used their authority to designate) might do so.
 
Inquiry said:
God can do whatever he wants (within his nature). We are limited to the sacraments he gave us, but he is not. He could transubstantiate himself in that bread (without the priest having proper succession) if he wanted to. The issue is we don’t have any knowledge of if he does.
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I would agree with the above, but also add the question of “why” he would do so.

Really for me it comes down to why God would do this if he had already given us a way through transubstantiation that some reject.

To use a bad analogy it would be a little like a math teacher showing a student how to perform some operation and then the student rejects that method for their better way and come up with an answer that is close, but not correct. The teacher does the student no favor by saying you tried so you get full credit. Certainly they can encourage their effort, but truth can never turn a blind eye to the fact that the answer is wrong.

I think the more likely situation would be for God to provide the actual graces to the minister to follow the path back to His holy Catholic Church. So in that way I think God would still provide graces to them for their sincere desire, but they wouldn’t be sacramental graces.
 
I agree with everything you said except the full credit analogy. So much of what He does for us is a way of giving us full credit for partial work. Imperfect repentance, death bed conversion, keeping his end of the covenant even when we don’t keep ours. God is the king of full credit.

That said, I think your last sentence is probably the best description of what is going on.
 
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Inquiry said:
I agree with everything you said except the full credit analogy
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I’d agree; it’s why I prefaced it as a bad analogy. 😁

Just to further explain my previous thoughts; God can certainly do the extraordinary as in cases you mention, but it seems the original question is really about an ordinary and ongoing process. God provided the sacraments as the ordinary way of providing mankind with sanctifying grace, so the proposal of also allowing consubstantaition as an alternative because a given person is pious in their belief seems a stretch into an ongoing (e.g. ordinary) situation. In essence that both transubstantiation and consubstantaition are equally valid ways that God would ordinarily provide those graces. I’m certain that we’d both agree that would seem highly implausible.
 
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Very true. Indeed my suspicion is that if God chooses to consecrate the Eucharist when performed by someone who is not in the Succession, He likely still chooses Transubstantiation. While I do think he respects our free will, I don’t think he is open to half measures when he gives of himself.
 
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This thread raises an interesting question I have never thought of before: does God, in the person of the Father, Son, and/or the Holy Spirit actually experience each act of transubstantiation? I.e. are they/ is he/ aware of it happening in a specific sense other than their awareness of everything? Do/does they/he know they/he are being held, placed in a tabernacle etc.? I guess another way of putting it would be: is the body and blood of Christ self-aware in that form?
 
God can do as He wills.

However, God cannot contradict Himself. He said “This is my Body”. Very distinct and precise teaching. Not this is half my body half bread.
 
It is entirely possible that a loving and merciful God, seeing the sincere belief of a congregation without apostolic succession, might choose to grace them with his presence anyway.
 
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Catholics are taught to believe this.
Then reality occurs as adulhood . and we find out Santa and the Easter bunny . are also made up stories.
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Are you replying to my comment and stating you dont believe bread becomes the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Christ?
 
Actually biblically there are only two ways, through laying on of hands or a personal encounter with the incarnated Christ as with St Paul. Where did you get this other idea?

For example there were charismatics that appointed each other as apostles about 30 years ago, it didn’t make it so. Mormons also did the same appointing an apostle as their leader, again it didn’t make it so. Or as St Paul says:

2 Cor 11: 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Is it impossible? No. But why go where you hope it might happen when one can go where we know it happens?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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If this was important issue
then the non Catholics apostolic churches would have prophetic people that would have a testimonial .
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Which would be new revelation. Unacceptable.
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This I what people are taught to believe.
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By the Church, which has been given to us to teach us and guide us.
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This is why a charasmatic has demonstrated faith
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I’m not sure what this nonsense is supposed to mean.
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Catholics are taught to believe this.
Then reality occurs as adulhood . and we find out Santa and the Easter bunny . are also made up stories.
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Again, the Church was given to us by Christ to teach and guide us. Denial of that is heresy.
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There are numerous churchs that have apostles. Spiritual succesion is up to the Holy spirit.
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Succession occurs as the Church teaches. It is not found just anywhere. There are no Lutherans with Holy orders. There are no Baptists with holy orders. There are no Methodists with holy orders. There are no non-denominational ministers with holy orders. None of these people can consecrate the Eucharist. Wishing doesn’t make it so. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

You say you are Catholic. Nothing you say is Catholic.
 
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