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WmJackP
Guest
The question is a tautology. How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Is there a square circle? Such questions have no meaningful end. I wouldn’t waste my time worrying about such nonsense.
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tonyrey
Guest
Because a sin is a defect. It alienates others, disrupts the harmony of existence and leads to isolation. Evil is essentially negative and destructive whereas God is positive and creative…
What you perceive as sin is really nothing more then your own misunderstanding of the scripture.
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Clcwmt
Guest
Touche…I’ll say the same thing right back at you. You put your own irrational spin on the words that clearly show evidence of “sin”.
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Clcwmt
Guest
“The trial by the Sanhedrin was illegal because it was held at night”
This is actually a very astute observation which further bolsters my claim for “story telling”.
The Sanhedrin would NOT have met at night nor would they have met on the passover feast.
That’s because it didn’t happen this way. Remember, the authors of the gospels were greek speaking people who weren’t even from that area. They make all kinds of geographical errors.
This is actually a very astute observation which further bolsters my claim for “story telling”.
The Sanhedrin would NOT have met at night nor would they have met on the passover feast.
That’s because it didn’t happen this way. Remember, the authors of the gospels were greek speaking people who weren’t even from that area. They make all kinds of geographical errors.
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tafan
Guest
Not true, Luke makes geographical errors, not many in the other synoptic gospels or in John. The idea that all the authors were greek speaking people does not hold up to modern scholarship at all, only the early texts of Luke were well written in Greek, the others not so much. Mathew was definitely written targeting a Jewish audience.
you sure you want to do a blow by blow here?
I already see that you are attempting to ride 2 different sides here in claiming they to be fictional stories and then trying to glean facts out of them.
The very position itself cannot be supported by logic.
Either you can claim God sinned by showing examples in scripture, or you can claim scripture to be fiction and lose support of it for the argument.
You cannot do both and believe anyone will take you seriously.
Well, site the specific chapter and verse of the incident and provide the specific Jewish law that was violated. Let’s see if they really apply.
I await the response for this.
OK, specific chapter and verse to show this theft.
I doubt you can find these either.
And the source?? Chapter and verse please…oh, and the specific historical and cultural authority to indicate such behavior is actually considered ‘rude’ by the culture of the time.
Chapter and verse??
Again, you should provide some backing for your accusation.
OK, chapter and verse again…
And you also need cultural references to back your assertion that such behavior was truly sinful.
Ha!
So you really are not answering the original post at all, but instead are making incendiary statements without listing any source or authority.
Then following it up by stating that all of your examples are fictitious.
You argument hasn’t a leg left to stand on.
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Luke_K
Guest
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Clcwmt
Guest
VZ71,
Are you kidding me? You want me to reference these examples of Jesus’ “sinning”? Are you trying to tell me that you don’t recognize these passages? Do you EVER read your NT?
Of course I think most of the NT is fictional. They were written as religious advertisements, in order to win converts. Was there an actual Jesus? Probably. Was he a God? No. Did he rise from the dead? No. He was likely another in a long line of apocalyptic preachers running around that crazy area of the world.
When I quote the passages showing that the Jesus character is just another flawed human, I’m doing so from YOUR perspective. You believe that he is GOD the son. You believe that he is without sin.
I’ll give you passages since you are totally unaware.
Here is an example of a lie.
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Guess again…he died on Friday and rose Sunday am. That’s only 2 nights in “heart of earth”.
Matthew 8:32
The whole herd … perished."
The devils ask Jesus to cast them into a herd of pigs. He does, and the poor pigs run off into the sea and drown.
Bertrand Russell in Why I am not a Christian considered this story to be evidence of the defective moral character of Jesus. For if Jesus was omnipotent, he could have found a kinder way to dispense with the devils – like just making them go away, for instance.
No kidding. Instead he steals the pigs by drowning them in the water.
Mark 7:25
“It is not meant to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.”
Jesus initially refuses to cast out a devil from a Greek woman’s daughter, calling the woman a “dog”. After much pleading, he finally agrees to cast out the devil.
What a nice guy that Jesus is.
My Jewish Rabbi friend told me that it was considered a sin not to give testimony when asked by a court. Jesus clearly doesn’t answer a question during his hearing.
Mark 7:10
“Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.”
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) Ni
Nice guy that Jesus…I used to think he was just about “love your neighbor and all”. Here he is telling parents to kill their disobeying children! I think Jesus would be considered a child abuser today. He’d be in big trouble with the local children’s aid societies!
There’s plenty more material but I think you get my drift. Anyone who looks up to this sick deranged character needs to see a shrink.
Are you kidding me? You want me to reference these examples of Jesus’ “sinning”? Are you trying to tell me that you don’t recognize these passages? Do you EVER read your NT?
Of course I think most of the NT is fictional. They were written as religious advertisements, in order to win converts. Was there an actual Jesus? Probably. Was he a God? No. Did he rise from the dead? No. He was likely another in a long line of apocalyptic preachers running around that crazy area of the world.
When I quote the passages showing that the Jesus character is just another flawed human, I’m doing so from YOUR perspective. You believe that he is GOD the son. You believe that he is without sin.
I’ll give you passages since you are totally unaware.
Here is an example of a lie.
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Guess again…he died on Friday and rose Sunday am. That’s only 2 nights in “heart of earth”.
Matthew 8:32
The whole herd … perished."
The devils ask Jesus to cast them into a herd of pigs. He does, and the poor pigs run off into the sea and drown.
Bertrand Russell in Why I am not a Christian considered this story to be evidence of the defective moral character of Jesus. For if Jesus was omnipotent, he could have found a kinder way to dispense with the devils – like just making them go away, for instance.
No kidding. Instead he steals the pigs by drowning them in the water.
Mark 7:25
“It is not meant to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.”
Jesus initially refuses to cast out a devil from a Greek woman’s daughter, calling the woman a “dog”. After much pleading, he finally agrees to cast out the devil.
What a nice guy that Jesus is.
My Jewish Rabbi friend told me that it was considered a sin not to give testimony when asked by a court. Jesus clearly doesn’t answer a question during his hearing.
Mark 7:10
“Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death.”
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) Ni
Nice guy that Jesus…I used to think he was just about “love your neighbor and all”. Here he is telling parents to kill their disobeying children! I think Jesus would be considered a child abuser today. He’d be in big trouble with the local children’s aid societies!
There’s plenty more material but I think you get my drift. Anyone who looks up to this sick deranged character needs to see a shrink.
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tonyrey
Guest
Do you know what sort of person Bertrand Russell was? He had a vested interest in dragging others down to his level - like everyone who hates being exposed…
No, I am not kidding.
If you want to make accusations you should back them with something.
I am not going to do your homework for you.
OK, then you failed to answer the argument concerning if God could sin.
Any proof you can cough up concerning any type of perceived sin on the part of Jesus would no longer qualify since you clearly are not speaking of God.
From MY perspective, Jesus did not sin.
But if you wish to speak out both sides of your mouth, fine.
Right. However, Jesus was Jewish and you must look at the timing based upon the culture that wrote those passages.
What would be 2 nights on our calander is simply not so in the Jewish culture of the time. Not a lie.
In fact, I had to deal with a similar argument from my 7 year old son the other day.
They are learning about astronomy and the various planets.
And my son came to the conclusion that a single day (24 hours) is really 2 nights and a day. He is perceiving correct, it is simply the difference between how the clock runs and what we normally would call a day. They do not have to line up to be right.
OK, and what sin is this? And can’t be theft. The bible makes no mention of an owner of this herd. And without this mention, we would have to assume an owner to make it theft. My assumptions are just as authoratative as yours, and I assume the pigs had no owner.
Well, I do not believe he called anyone a dog here.
What he is doing is making a distinction between the Jewish and the Gentiles in terms the culture of the time would readily understand.
He then makes a very good example to everyone by working the miracle that was asked.
It is a sin for a witness to withold testimony, but it is not a sin for the accused to refuse to answer.
I suggest you clarify with you Rabbi the distinction between witness testimony and the accused.
Precisely why I wanted chapter and verse.
Your quote ends mid-sentence.
You cannot reasonably claim to know anything of what is being told listening to only half of what is being said.
Yes, I get your drift.
You have no real material, just a bunch of tired accusations.
None correct at all, not a one stands the light of actually reading the scripture in context.
I would stongly encourage you to read beyond the script given you to make certain the arguments actually hold water. These do not.
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tonyrey
Guest
You are entitled to present your opinion but not to use insulting gutter language and show lack of respect for what Christians consider sacred…
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tonyrey
Guest
Forum Rule 7: Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
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NE_Catholic
Guest
Man…I was just having fun with it.you are not even a good troll
enjoy banishment
Besides. If a tone of civility can be maintained on both ends, perhaps he will learn something.
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FCEGM
Guest
God is ALL Good; He cannot do evil.
Regarding Our Lord: A truly free will is a will aimed toward the good; a failure in exercising free will towards the good leads to slavery to sin. Thus, God Who is All God cannot fail in His will always desiring His own Goodness. This is why Original Sin and actual sin impact our ability to choose the Good; but, as we grow in our identity in Christ, our will becomes freer and is less apt to choose the non-good.
Further, Christ as a healer must have what He is going to share, i.e., must be fully, i.e., perfectly human and Divine or He could not heal us. He gives us the health, as it were, He has. If He did not have this health we, being sick, could not receive healing. So it is not Christ Who is not fully human, it is we in our fallen state who are not yet fully human. Only when we by His merits are conformed to Him by divine grace will our humanity be all that it should be. Christ is the Model and Goal for humanity, not vice-versa.
Christ has the fully human nature, i.e., one not wounded by sin. His humanity is therefore graced and in harmony with the Divine. For us to be tending toward sin is for us NOT to be fully human; therefore we are not the vantage point of healing of our wounded nature but He is. If follows that for Him to heal our infirmity He must bring health to our infirmity. We can’t give what we don’t have, so He must have this health of being fully human, i.e., in harmony with God in order to give it to us by grace. He therefore could not sin, which makes him perfectly human, not less human.
Temptation for Him is not exactly the same as for us. The world and the devil would tempt Him from outside, but there was no concupiscence in Him that could pull Him towards sin within His humanity. Satan was presenting Him with all the earthly possibilities open to Him; this was a temptation from outside of Himself. IOW, it was an urging from outside, not a desire rising from concupiscience (and He wasn’t subject to concupiscience, i.e., the internal temptations arising from a fallen nature). What He experienced in the Passion is the natural repulsion of the flesh which ought not to die, is not supposed to die, to undergo that separation of body and soul.
Since He was fully human, He would have felt this separation and its preliminaries more than we do. Moreover, He would have felt the abandonment of His Father more than we do (since He was closer to Him than we ever were or could be). It is because He could not sin that when he undergoes this separation of death He experiences “temptation” in a way as we do. But in another way He doesn’t; He was not bent towards sin. He would not have experienced inordinate lust or greed, or gluttony, etc… His trials came from outside though they are experienced inside, e.g., suffering and death. While He has consciousness of being the Son, in His sacred humanity He is able to suffer from forces outside Himself (hunger, thirst, obdurancy of others, etc.); and as Man He acquired sensible knowledge, had human emotions and thus could feel sorrow and fear; so He brings what He encounters in His Body to His Father because He is in relation to Him and is the Perfect Man at prayer, submitting His human will to the Will of the Father.
Consider the doctrine of the Theotokos: Mary is the Mother of God because the Person born of her is Divine. IOW, she didn’t just give birth to Christ’s human nature, but gave birth to a Person. The Son, the Second Person of the Divinity, took upon Himself a human nature; joined to that human nature He is known as Jesus, but there is only one Person (God the Son) who is undivided in Himself while being both God and Man - and it is a person who sins or not, not a nature. The Person of God the Son cannot sin.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
*If God is omnipotent, why can he not sin? *
To sin is to disobey a higher authority … God. How can God disobey himself?
To sin is to disobey a higher authority … God. How can God disobey himself?
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runningdude
Guest
Actually, Jesus did have a human and a divine will. From the Catechism:
This teaching is extremely important, because Jesus’s human will, bound by natural law, did not want to die. He was naturally afraid and tormented by the prospect of death, and extremely hurt personally by the betrayal of his friend Judas, yet submitted in total obedience to the Father.
Sharing in the Divinity, He could have called 10,000 Angels to overwhelm the Roman Centurions and rescue His Human Self. As the Son’s divine will is united with the Father’s, it would have been truly the Will of God that this be done. Instead, He prayed constantly to accept the burden of death with His Human will.
Thus Christ’s agony in the Garden serves as a very real example of human obedience.
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AHapka
Guest
Did not Jesus specifically say that He laid down His live of His own will? And that NO ONE took it from Him?
No one had the power to take it from Him. He specifially chose to give it up. And don’t forget, God was on the cross. Where one of the Trinity is present, so are all.
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