Could if be possible that everyone is destined for heaven?

[teachccd]

Nobody seems to like the idea of false self going to hell true self going to heaven notion.

And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Maybe we all have a sheep and a goat… :whacky:

That’s because we don’t believe in ideas. We believe in what Christ taught and what His Church continues to teach until He comes. Your quote from Scripture above says that “He shall separate them one from another”. It does NOT say that He shall separate one from themselves. No, my friend, you are either entirely a sheep or entirely a goat and you will be judged as such when Jesus returns. We may be exhibiting both while on earth and that is why there is confession and absolution. But in the end we remain in the one category and spend eternity accordingly…teachccd

 

[grandfather]

Who are we to deny Jesus the power and glory to save all?

We have no way of personally knowing anything about this matter. We can speculate until the cows come home and still know nothing. As with other spiritual matters we know what God has revealed to us, by faith, by believing.

I pray for the salvation of all, but Jesus said the pathway to life is narrow and straight and few take it. The way to hell is broad and wide and many go that way.

By believing that many are lost is not us denying Jesus can do anything. Rather, it is agreeing with what He has revealed to us.

I do not like this bit of revelation and I argue with Him in prayer to save all souls. In the end I am nobody and He is God. But He told me to go to Him with all of my wants and desires, so I do.

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, lsave us from the fire of hell, ead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of your mercy.

This prayer comes from heaven. Heaven teaches it to us through the children of Fatima. So if Jesus teaches that many shall be lost and we are also taught to pray for all, what does that mean? I don’t know, but I won’t give up. I will continue to pound on the door of the judge and badger him. He told me to do that and I will not stop.

 

[bilop]

Where in Scripture does it state WHO is in hell?? Even Judas is not explicitly condemned to eternal damnation and the Church has no comment as to his fate. If something is “technically correct” then it is correct. Now, what we as Christians hold in our beliefs as to those being in hell is another story. I simply stated that the Catholic Church never refers to anyone in hell. If you think that the Church is unreasonable for remaining silent in this area then you need to take it up with them…God Bless…teachccd

St. Luke, Ch 16

20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,

21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom.** And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.** 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, 28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.

31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

Seems like there is at least one. Or maybe 2.

St. Matthew, Ch. 26

21 And whilst they were eating, he said: Amen I say to you, that one of you is about to betray me. 22 And they being very much troubled, began every one to say: Is it I, Lord? 23 But he answering, said: He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, he shall betray me. 24 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born. 25 And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it.

The Church has no way of determining definitively if any individual to is in Hell, so she refrains from stating it.

But, the Scriptural evidence is overwhelming. I’ve cited numerous references, by Christ himself, to people going to Hell. To believe in an empty Hell is wishful thinking, and, as I stated earlier, very dangerous. It only hinders people from repentance and seeking absolution, and from avoiding sin.

God Bless

 

[Shlomey]

If we consider everyone going to heaven, then we have a problem.

Apocalypse 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Apocalypse 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

To question the notion that many will be going to hell is to question Jesus.

 

[bilop]

Just to add, the doctrine of Universal Salvation is heresy, having been declared anathema in 543.

From the Old Catholic Encyclopedia, in the article on Apocatastasis (Universal Salvation).

In any case, the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church.

newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

God Bless

 

[bilop]

To question the notion that many will be going to hell is to question Jesus.

Thank you. You said what I’ve been trying to, but much more eloquently.

God Bless

 

[Shlomey]

Thank you. You said what I’ve been trying to, but much more eloquently.

God Bless

God bless you, too

Veritas

 

[Peregrino]

Could it be possible that within everyone there is a false self and a true self, and at the end of time our false selves are sent to hell and our true selves are sent to heaven? Maybe purgatory is the seperation of the selves, and those who have lived primarily from their true self will feel less pain then those who lived primarily from their false selves. Maybe for the very holy there will be hardly no pain in purgatory, and for the very unholy there will be a lot of pain, and they will hardly recognize the part of them that goes to heaven because they never got to know their true self here on earth. Maybe…

What do you think?

I am not sure about the particulars that you have outlined above but I think that hell and a merciful God are incompatible concepts.

 

[P10]

First, the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is just that, a parable. Do you think that the rich man in this story was a real person? That is a hard argument to win.

Secondly, I am reminded of what Jesus said in Matt 25.41 as he sends the ‘goats’ away from him into ‘…the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’ Apparently from these words of Jesus we are to understand that the everlasting fire of Hades was not prepared to receive the souls of human beings, but fallen angels.

Lastly, the rich man in this story is said to be in Hades. Would you say that Hades is equivalent to what we think of as Hell?

 

[bilop]

First, the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is just that, a parable. Do you think that the rich man in this story was a real person? That is a hard argument to win.

Possibly, I don’t know. But, I don’t think Jesus would lie to us by saying there was somone in Hell if there wasn’t.

Secondly, I am reminded of what Jesus said in Matt 25.41 as he sends the ‘goats’ away from him into ‘…the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’ Apparently from these words of Jesus we are to understand that the everlasting fire of Hades was not prepared to receive the souls of human beings, but fallen angels.

No. Read the Scripture again. I quoted it directly on the first page of this thread. He says he will separate the nations (people) like the shepherd separates the sheep and goats. It is clearly people going into the everlasting fire.

Lastly, the rich man in this story is said to be in Hades. Would you say that Hades is equivalent to what we think of as Hell?

Yes. Hell. Gehenna. He talks about fire and torment. That is the language of Hell.

Look at St. Matthew Ch. 7

21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Not everyone shall enter into Heaven. That means some must be in Hell (as there are only 2 final ends). It’s black letter Gospel, the direct words of Jesus Christ.

God Bless

 

[teachccd]

The Church has no way of determining definitively if any individual to is in Hell, so she refrains from stating it.

But, the Scriptural evidence is overwhelming. I’ve cited numerous references, by Christ himself, to people going to Hell. To believe in an empty Hell is wishful thinking, and, as I stated earlier, very dangerous. It only hinders people from repentance and seeking absolution, and from avoiding sin.

God Bless

Obviously, you respond to me without realizing the full context of my posts. You practically quote me in your first statement above and then continue to mention that while the Church (who is guided by the Holy Spirit and remains as Christ on earth) remains silent, Jesus does not. Again, I never said that hell was empty or filled and neither does the Church. Why would one shy away from repentance when Jesus is VERY explicit that hell exists and that we can choose to go there? Apples and oranges here…

Luke 16 is a parable and Matthew 26 is non-conclusive…teachccd

 

[P10]

Just to add, the doctrine of Universal Salvation is heresy, having been declared anathema in 543.

From the Old Catholic Encyclopedia, in the article on Apocatastasis (Universal Salvation).

newadvent.org/cathen/01599a.htm

I have just read the long article that you gave the link for, and I re-read the quote you offered from that article. Michael Dummett writing the article for New Advent claims that Apocatastasis "was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto. " There were in fact three Councils of Constantinople, in 381, in 553 and in 680-1. There was no such council in 543. (see article by P. Johnson, in The Spectator; 11/26/2005

The 1st Council of Constantinople was held in 381 AD. I have read through the proceedings and anathemas of the that Council and apocatastasis is not mentioned or condemned there. Furthermore, I have just read through the proceedings and anathemas Second Council of Constantinople AD 553, thinking there was just a typo in the New Advent article. Still I cannot find any reference to it at all.

I am a loyal son of the Church. In Dummett’s New Advent article cited, he acknowledges that Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory Nyssa, St. Jerome, St. Gregory Naziansus, Diodorus of Tarsus, and Theodore of Mopsuestia all taught universal salvation. I was aware of this, and this is why I am willing to discuss it.

Perhaps what we are considering is not ‘apocatastasis’ as such. but an false extension of universal salvation. In other words, there were some among these authors who taught that all evil would be eradicated, including in the devil and fallen angels, and perhaps it was this aspect that was condemn, if it was condemned at all. Dummett obviously is in error as to the facts in this case.

 

[bilop]

Obviously, you respond to me without realizing the full context of my posts. You practically quote me in your first statement above and then continue to mention that while the Church (who is guided by the Holy Spirit and remains as Christ on earth) remains silent, Jesus does not. Again, I never said that hell was empty or filled and neither does the Church. Why would one shy away from repentance when Jesus is VERY explicit that hell exists and that we can choose to go there? Apples and oranges here…

Luke 16 is a parable and Matthew 26 is non-conclusive…teachccd

Actually, I think the Church has spoken, though not in as black and white a way as some may wish.

When the Council of Constantinople declared anyone who holds to Universal Salvation to be anathema, they basically stated that there were souls in Hell. Since the 500’s, and the rejection of Origen’s theory, this was indisputed in the Church.

With the re-emergence of the Universal Salvation theorists in the 20th century, the Church probably needs to rule definitively.

The Scriptural evidence, in the words of Jesus Himself, is just overwhelming, even if no single quote is definitive in-and-of-itself, and all major Catholic theologians since Augustine have agreed.

I think this is one of the most dangerous of the modernisms pervading the Church. It drives people from the Sacraments, and obedience to the moral law.

God Bless

 

[P10]

Bilop,
I know the ‘goats’ are people, I was not suggesting otherwise. Jesus calls them goats, so I did. My point was that the place of fiery torment to which they are sent was not prepared for them, but for the devil and his angels. I take it from this statement of Jesus that the everlasting fire was not designed for them. If not, then why are they there? To purge them from sin perhaps? If Jesus sends them to a place not intended for them, a place he had prepared for the devil and his fallen angels, then the fact that they are there may suggest that this will not be their ultimate end, that being there has some other purpose than to house them for eternity.

 

[P10]

Actually, I think the Church has spoken, though not in as black and white a way as some may wish.

When the Council of Constantinople declared anyone who holds to Universal Salvation to be anathema, they basically stated that there were souls in Hell. Since the 500’s, and the rejection of Origen’s theory, this was indisputed in the Church.

I can’t find that anathema any where. There was no Council of Constantinople in 543. There is no reference to the doctrine of universal salvation in any of the three Councils in Constantinople. I am not certain that universal salvation is the same as ‘apocatastasis’, since many of the Church Fathers taught universal salvation.

 

[bilop]

I have just read the long article that you gave the link for, and I re-read the quote you offered from that article. Michael Dummett writing the article for New Advent claims that Apocatastasis "was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto. " There were in fact three Councils of Constantinople, in 381, in 553 and in 680-1. There was no such council in 543. (see article by P. Johnson, in The Spectator; 11/26/2005

The 1st Council of Constantinople was held in 381 AD. I have read through the proceedings and anathemas of the that Council and apocatastasis is not mentioned or condemned there. Furthermore, I have just read through the proceedings and anathemas Second Council of Constantinople AD 553, thinking there was just a typo in the New Advent article. Still I cannot find any reference to it at all.

I am a loyal son of the Church. In Dummett’s New Advent article cited, he acknowledges that Clement of Alexandria, St. Gregory Nyssa, St. Jerome, St. Gregory Naziansus, Diodorus of Tarsus, and Theodore of Mopsuestia all taught universal salvation. I was aware of this, and this is why I am willing to discuss it.

Perhaps what we are considering is not ‘apocatastasis’ as such. but an false extension of universal salvation. In other words, there were some among these authors who taught that all evil would be eradicated, including in the devil and fallen angels, and perhaps it was this aspect that was condemn, if it was condemned at all. Dummett obviously is in error as to the facts in this case.

You need to refer to the anathemas against Origen, specifically.

12
If anyone shall say that the heavenly Powers and all men and the Devil and evil spirits are united with the Word of God in all respects, as the Ν οῦς which is by them called Christ and which is in the form of God, and which humbled itself as they say; and [if anyone shall say] that the Kingdom of Christ shall have an end: let him be anathema.

newadvent.org/fathers/3812.htm

way at the bottom.

Got to go.

I’m sure you’re a sincere Catholic, but, I think this doctrine (universal salvation) is just too dangerous. When I look at all the evil in the world, I wonder not whether hell is empty, but how sparse must be the population of Heaven.

God Bless

God Bless

 

[Lujack]

You need to refer to the anathemas against Origen, specifically.

12
If anyone shall say that the heavenly Powers and all men and the Devil and evil spirits are united with the Word of God in all respects, as the Ν οῦς which is by them called Christ and which is in the form of God, and which humbled itself as they say; and [if anyone shall say] that the Kingdom of Christ shall have an end: let him be anathema.

newadvent.org/fathers/3812.htm

way at the bottom.

Got to go.

I’m sure you’re a sincere Catholic, but, I think this doctrine (universal salvation) is just too dangerous. When I look at all the evil in the world, I wonder not whether hell is empty, but how sparse must be the population of Heaven.

God Bless

God Bless

There are two crucial differences between the modern argument related to an empty Hell. The first is that Origen argued that Hell is empty. The modern argument states that Hell may be empty, and that it is the duty of Catholics to hope that this is the case.

The second is that Origen stated that Satan and his spirits will be saved, which is not a part of the modern argument that Hell might be empty.

Would you agree with me, though, that if an empty Hell is a possibility, it then becomes the duty of a Catholic to pray for this to be the case?

 

[P10]

I found this in the ‘Anathemas of the Emperor Justinian against Origen’, even further down the page.

“If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.”

So, now that we have found the reference I have to ask if the anathemas of an emperor carry the same weight for us as the Anathemas of the Church in Council? Can anyone speak to whether the 2nd Council of Constantinople formally adopted these anathemas, because they are not listed with the formal anathemas of the Church in that Council.

 

[bilop]

There are two crucial differences between the modern argument related to an empty Hell. The first is that Origen argued that Hell is empty. The modern argument states that Hell may be empty, and that it is the duty of Catholics to hope that this is the case.

The second is that Origen stated that Satan and his spirits will be saved, which is not a part of the modern argument that Hell might be empty.

Would you agree with me, though, that if an empty Hell is a possibility, it then becomes the duty of a Catholic to pray for this to be the case?

I sincerely don’t believe it is a possibility. It would make Jesus a liar, or the Gospels non-inspired. The weight of the Gospels, the great Theologians, and the private revelations to the Saints from Fatima, to St. Sister Faustina, to St. Don Bosco is just too overwhelming.

How about this compromise. We can both pray that all repent before their deaths and accept Christ as God. If all do this, they will surely not be damned, and it ends up being the same thing.

God Bless

 

[St_Gregory]

The Church officially teaches that there is indeed a hell. But the Church remains silent as to whether there are any souls residing there. So, we are free to believe as we wish as to whether or not hell is empty. We are not required to believe any private revelations.

Now that being said, I would strongly urge my brothers and sisters to follow the teachings of Christ and know that He was very clear that if we turn away from Him that we will go to hell. We should never take a lukewarm stance on our belief that hell is a real destination for those who turn from God. So is there one person in hell? Are there billions of souls in hell? No one answered that question as of yet, not even the Catholic Church. But, so as not to take this lightly, consider that you may be the first one there even if hell is now empty …God Bless…teachccd

Nice post.
On an Objective/technical level I agree with you.
On a more personal level I’d be inclined to say that a considered number of people do fall - there are so many people who HATE God that it would be unloving of God to make those people live with Him for eternity if they didn’t want too. Although I’d be a tad skeptical of the “revelations” of various saints who saw many people fall, sometimes over 99.9% of humans fall according to these “revelations.”

It might be good to note

[The Dragon’s]
tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven

I think this might allude to a third of the angels who chose to follow Satan in rebellion against God before time - some commentators think this verse may also refer to human’s fall.
Nothing definitive of course but a would say that it is reasonable to suggest that a significant number of people will ultimately chose to hate God and so subject themselves to Satan’s authority and sin’s power.