Could it be true? The Quran is not anti-Trinitarian?

[Islam_1995]

OK from what i have read from this thread, some of the answers have been absurd and fabricated. Whoever thought of this question is being silly, its very well known that the Muslims, Prophet Muhammad and the Quran clearly says its rejects the holy trinity and Muslims will always be rejecting it till judgment day comes. Furthermore, shall any Muslim believe in the trinity he will be destined for the hellfire for eternity as he is committing shirk the worst sin in Islam.

 

[rinnie]

Dear friend, yes I understand what you believe, but no one has commented on my example of the US President?

I and the Father are one, Jesus His representative, speaking on behalf of God, in other words in Me you see the attributes of God, I speak with His voice, sorry does not mean that He is God. Why because no one sees God, our only way of understanding God is through the Messenger The Son of Man.
Exactly when you pray, you are to pray to God, for as Jesus said, My father is greater than I. Again confirming that He is not God.
I don’t think I have to go on.

That is not the teachings of the Church. Jesus is fully humam fully Divime. Jesus is God the Son.

If I say to you I and the Father are one then we are One. Jesus said they are ONE GOD.

Jesus said he glorified the Father and the Father will mow glority me. If Jesus was not God he would not be glorified by the Father. This shows they are both equal. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit all equal.

God is the word in the O.T.
God is the Son in the N.T.
God is the Holy Spirit now in the RCC.

All equal all Divine. One in being with the Spirit. God from God light from Light True God from true God.

 

[rinnie]

By the way no one ever did see God until he revealed himself as the Son!

 

[rinnie]

OK from what i have read from this thread, some of the answers have been absurd and fabricated. Whoever thought of this question is being silly, its very well known that the Muslims, Prophet Muhammad and the Quran clearly says its rejects the holy trinity and Muslims will always be rejecting it till judgment day comes. Furthermore, shall any Muslim believe in the trinity he will be destined for the hellfire for eternity as he is committing shirk the worst sin in Islam.

There you go the Muslim teaching!

 

[Islam_1995]

Christianity was preached by Jesus on the basis that the people of his religion will seek to worship one god and follow his message , Jesus was not supposed to be worshiped at all. The holy trinity is a man made false doctrine which you the catholics had created in the 3/4th century , and has now till then lasted to this day in the 21st century which has indoctrinated the other major Christian sects into believing it. There is no evidence of the word trinity based in the bible.

 

[Islam_1995]

The Qur’an doesn’t fully explain what “three” means in their text. Muslims believe that the Spirit of Allah impregnated Mary, therefore Muslims accept the Spirit of God as a revealed nature of God. This is the third person of the Trinity, fully God, the Spirit of God.

However, Islam has a false concept of what Christians believed the Trinity was:

Surah 4:171O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

It would seem as if Allah thought either Mary was the third person of the Trinity or he wasn’t sure. If Allah knew his spirit was simply what we mean by the third person of the Trinity then Allah should have no problem with this understanding as a nature of his.

Ok , now your just lying, no wonder, why Evangelicals are deemed liars and crooks by Muslims. Your interpretation of this quote is shockingly abysmal. The brute fact is we clearly do not believe in the trinity , neither do we worship Jesus or Mary , I don’t know where your getting opinions from, but you are probably taking it from your favorite show abn sat which loves to lie about Islam

 

[dronald]

Hey Islam_1995.

I just want to give a quick warning that many of the topics that are made to be between Christians and Muslims are often “hi-jacked” for lack of a better term by the Bahai. Because the questions in the title are not directed explicitly towards Muslims (which I think should be the future strategy) you’ll get opinions that contradict both the teachings of Islam and Christianity.

Secondly, I think you should back away from the “Christianity adopted pagan beliefs and didn’t believe Jesus is God until the fourth century.” I know this is a conspiracy that is prevalent among Muslims, but you’ll quickly come to accept historically the Trinity was always believed in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I’m just saving you the hassle of figuring this out over the next year or so you spend here.

Thirdly, as I pointed out earlier in this thread; the Trinity is never explicitly mentioned in the Qur’an but rather the number, “Three.” When the three is brought up, Mary is usually mentioned which is an error on the Qur’ans part as the three in one never consisted of Mary.

I would like you to comment on who the, “Spirit” in these two passages is:

Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them** with a Spirit from Himself.** And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity.
Qur’an, sura 58 (Al-Mujadila), ayat 22

"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.
Qur’an, sura 21 (Al-Anbiya), ayat 91

"Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the** Holy Spirit**, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity.
Qur’an, sura 5 (Al-Ma’ida), ayat 110

 

[frizzgrig]

Show me where in the Bible, Jesus says that He is part of a Trinity?

John 17:5
“Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began.”

John 17:20-21
“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me."

 

[dronald]

John 17:20-21
“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me."

This one’s no good for argument imo.

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Notice how he’s speaking of everyone being one… That’s like saying the one’s He’s speaking of are a part of the Trinity, and we know that’s not true.

The Baptism formula is a great one though, putting Jesus and the Holy Spirit on the same level as the Father. Also, Revelation 1:17 is excellent. There are hundreds of examples, but the one you’ve given isn’t the strongest imo.

 

[happyme]

As far as meeting God the Father, I met Him in my heart but it wasn’t that He came into my heart, it was that He was already there but revealed Himself to me and I just knew that it was Him.

By the way, I use the male pronoun because pronouns come in handy but God is neither a Male, a Female nor an It even tho God-Incarnate was a Male in His Incarnation.

I have never progressed from believing to knowing, in the way that I define know/knowing, I only know things that have been revealed to me.

I stake absolutely everything on God’s Plan being for ALL, ultimately, to be with God in God’s Kingdom, I do not know the “details” nor do I need to know the “details” but God’s Victory is Total and Absolute in the reconciliation of God and humanity.

There will be those that take a detour or so to the netherworld but God in His Incarnation “won” the “keys” to the netherworld and will use these “keys” in due time, God’s Time.

God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Dear Tom

I find your responses always most kind and loving, I consider you follow the teachings of Jesus very well. You also speak many truths of which I can totally agree.

We differ so very little in the majority of things, this is wonderful, and I would have liked to have you for a neighbour, I am sure we would be good friends.

God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

How true, God created and loves all, so many feel they have all truth, whereas this is God’s domain only.

As far as meeting God the Father, I met Him in my heart but it wasn’t that He came into my heart, it was that He was already there but revealed Himself to me and I just knew that it was Him.

By the way, I use the male pronoun because pronouns come in handy but God is neither a Male, a Female nor an It even tho God-Incarnate was a Male in His Incarnation.

I would feel that many people in the world could relate to what you say here, I for myself have had this meeting of the heart as you say. As for using the male pronoun, I believe as do you, the same. Also I understand that this usage is correct, and that God Himself will reveal in the future why it is so, also though teaching us that He is neither male or female as we understand the word.

I stake absolutely everything on God’s Plan being for ALL, ultimately, to be with God in God’s Kingdom, I do not know the “details” nor do I need to know the “details” but God’s Victory is Total and Absolute in the reconciliation of God and humanity.

I believe absolutely the same my friend. But I see the gradual unfoldment of His (God) plan in the world today. God is slowly bringing His “To be done on earth as it is in Heaven” upon the earth and its peoples, the process will be slow, but sure. Nothing can stand in the Way of His plan.

There will be those that take a detour or so to the netherworld but God in His Incarnation “won” the “keys” to the netherworld and will use these “keys” in due time, God’s Time.

I found this statement rather puzzling, but when I tried thinking about it from your belief, I feel I understand what you are saying.
But for me, every world of creation is owned/created by God, God does not need to win any keys.
When I think of keys I think of the book of revelations and the one who will bring the keys to unlock spiritual teaching that have puzzled many for centuries, with great debates back and forth. I believe that that ONE has come, and done just that. So of course my faith and understanding is slightly different from yours, as you still appear to be waiting.

What you say “in due time, God’s Time.” yes again so true, God work in ways that man has trouble understanding does He not?

Blessings to you my Christian friend

 

[happyme]

That is not the teachings of the Church. Jesus is fully humam fully Divime. Jesus is God the Son.

If I say to you I and the Father are one then we are One. Jesus said they are ONE GOD.

Jesus said he glorified the Father and the Father will mow glority me. If Jesus was not God he would not be glorified by the Father. This shows they are both equal. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit all equal.

God is the word in the O.T.
God is the Son in the N.T.
God is the Holy Spirit now in the RCC.

All equal all Divine. One in being with the Spirit. God from God light from Light True God from true God.

Dear rinnie

Yes I believe that is what your church teaches, and is your belief, and I am sure you are strong in your belief. But that is your belief and not mine, I believe differently and read the passages you place this belief in differently, I believe Jesus never said hinted or otherwise implied that He was God. I do not wish to debate this with you as we both have our different belief.

I am happy to discuss matters we can agree on. Otherwise I do not wish to be in conflict and cause disagreement.

 

[happyme]

John 17:5
“Now glorify me, Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began.”

John 17:20-21
“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me."

Dear friend
The verses you quote are certainly, for me, no evidence of a Trinity. sorry

If you wish for me to explain what I feel is being said in these verses then please ask me.

 

[happyme]

Hey Islam_1995.

I just want to give a quick warning that many of the topics that are made to be between Christians and Muslims are often “hi-jacked” for lack of a better term by the Bahai. Because the questions in the title are not directed explicitly towards Muslims (which I think should be the future strategy) you’ll get opinions that contradict both the teachings of Islam and Christianity.

Dear friend I would like to respond to your comment here.
Is not this part of the Catholic forum for non Catholics to enter into discussion?
I know I keep getting invited back to participate if, I have not posted in a while.

So how do you say “I just want to give a quick warning that many of the topics that are made to be between Christians and Muslims are often “hi-jacked” for lack of a better term by the Bahai.”

I could say the same of Christians who enter the Baha’i forums with there thoughts and ideas and quotes from the Bible. But of course I would not be so rude.
Can we not all consider what an other believes without attack, or considering that the other is trying to Hijack, a very negative response I feel.

Peace to you

 

[dronald]

Dear friend I would like to respond to your comment here.
Is not this part of the Catholic forum for non Catholics to enter into discussion?
I know I keep getting invited back to participate if, I have not posted in a while.

So how do you say “I just want to give a quick warning that many of the topics that are made to be between Christians and Muslims are often “hi-jacked” for lack of a better term by the Bahai.”

I could say the same of Christians who enter the Baha’i forums with there thoughts and ideas and quotes from the Bible. But of course I would not be so rude.
Can we not all consider what an other believes without attack, or considering that the other is trying to Hijack, a very negative response I feel.

Peace to you

I don’t know a better way to put it as these topics were created with Muslims in mind. I respond to a Muslim and four pages later he has lost the train of discussion and anything I say is forgotten.

Also, I use the Qur’an to prove the Bible to Muslims, but the Bahai will quote me and give their new interpretation even though I wasn’t addressing the Bahai.

Fact is, the Muslims on this board have basically disappeared, so it’s not a big deal.

 

[rinnie]

Dear rinnie

Yes I believe that is what your church teaches, and is your belief, and I am sure you are strong in your belief. But that is your belief and not mine, I believe differently and read the passages you place this belief in differently, I believe Jesus never said hinted or otherwise implied that He was God. I do not wish to debate this with you as we both have our different belief.

I am happy to discuss matters we can agree on. Otherwise I do not wish to be in conflict and cause disagreement.

I understand but what would truly be gained? If I say I love God and you Love God.

I pray, you pray. We are not separated by the truth, we are separated by the denial of truths.

I don’t want us to be separated at all! I want us to be ONE as Christ teaches us to be one.

We both have God in us because of our love for one another.

How does only speaking of what we have in common bring People back to Christ, if they refuse to see what we don’t have in common?

What is the point of discussion?

 

[happyme]

I don’t know a better way to put it as these topics were created with Muslims in mind. I respond to a Muslim and four pages later he has lost the train of discussion and anything I say is forgotten.

Also, I use the Qur’an to prove the Bible to Muslims, but the Bahai will quote me and give their new interpretation even though I wasn’t addressing the Bahai.

Fact is, the Muslims on this board have basically disappeared, so it’s not a big deal.

Dear friend, what you say, could also be directed at Christians who do the same. They come into Baha’i forums unasked and not only give their translations and ideas but also often say abusive and disrespectful things. But we accept it is a forum, and try to respond to them as lovingly as possible.
But aside from that I understand your frustration, perhaps if you just politely told the Baha’i that you do not wish to discuss with them, and only with the particular Muslim in the thread.
I know I would accept that and withdraw from the discussion, where you were in. I feel that the majority of Baha’is would respect your asking.(of course we not perfect, and all different levels in between )

But of course the Muslim disappearing as you say may have nothing to do with a Baha’i participating?

Just my thoughts, peace to you my friend

 

[dronald]

Dear friend, what you say, could also be directed at Christians who do the same. They come into Baha’i forums unasked and not only give their translations and ideas but also often say abusive and disrespectful things. But we accept it is a forum, and try to respond to them as lovingly as possible.
But aside from that I understand your frustration, perhaps if you just politely told the Baha’i that you do not wish to discuss with them, and only with the particular Muslim in the thread.
I know I would accept that and withdraw from the discussion, where you were in. I feel that the majority of Baha’is would respect your asking.(of course we not perfect, and all different levels in between )

But of course the Muslim disappearing as you say may have nothing to do with a Baha’i participating?

Just my thoughts, peace to you my friend

Thank you for your understanding. I don’t blame the Bahai for the disappearance of the Muslims, I have a theory that it has to do with our relentless in pointing out historical discrepancies and ambiguity’s in the Islamic faith, but perhaps that’s just me on a high horse.

I don’t mind that you’re participating in these threads because it hasn’t been made clear that the OP wants some Muslim opinions. I could be wrong but, "Is the Quran not anti-Trinitarian and “who is the Prophet Muhammed” I feel are questions directed towards Muslims in order to have discussions with Muslims.

Although, I could be extremely arrogant in saying this and I kinda feel bad typing this because I have no idea what the intention of the OP is, but I just read it like “What do Muslims think” and when I finally do get a chance to talk to a Muslim there’s multiple pages of Bahai.

It’s regretful that you feel Christians do the same thing in other forums, and all I’m saying is that in the future the Christians here should be more clear that they want a discussion with Muslims when posting the thread.

I believe Jesus was crucified, Muslims believe Jesus was taken away, you believe there is a body and a spirit that were separate in the crucifixion. So it’s tough when I respond to a Muslim using history, the Bible, the Qur’an, etc and a Bahai explains “this is what we believe about it.”

Anyways, I’ve gone on too much about this because as I said, I could be completely wrong.

 

[happyme]

I understand but what would truly be gained? If I say I love God and you Love God.

I pray, you pray. We are not separated by the truth, we are separated by the denial of truths.

I don’t want us to be separated at all! I want us to be ONE as Christ teaches us to be one.

We both have God in us because of our love for one another.

How does only speaking of what we have in common bring People back to Christ, if they refuse to see what we don’t have in common?

What is the point of discussion?

Dear rinnie

Yes we both love God, and our service to Him on many levels is the same. correct
Then we both agree that we wish to be one in faith.

Then you say

How does only speaking of what we have in common bring People back to Christ, if they refuse to see what we don’t have in common?

What is the point of discussion?

If our aim is only to convert the other to our way of believing, then no what is the use.
If we could really and honestly consider what the other says, then there may be some wriggle room to seriously discuss those differences, I just feel the first step is to discuss where we are the same, perhaps building a little understanding and respect.

 

[happyme]

Thank you for your understanding. I don’t blame the Bahai for the disappearance of the Muslims, I have a theory that it has to do with our relentless in pointing out historical discrepancies and ambiguity’s in the Islamic faith, but perhaps that’s just me on a high horse.

I don’t mind that you’re participating in these threads because it hasn’t been made clear that the OP wants some Muslim opinions. I could be wrong but, "Is the Quran not anti-Trinitarian and “who is the Prophet Muhammed” I feel are questions directed towards Muslims in order to have discussions with Muslims.

Although, I could be extremely arrogant in saying this and I kinda feel bad typing this because I have no idea what the intention of the OP is, but I just read it like “What do Muslims think” and when I finally do get a chance to talk to a Muslim there’s multiple pages of Bahai.

It’s regretful that you feel Christians do the same thing in other forums, and all I’m saying is that in the future the Christians here should be more clear that they want a discussion with Muslims when posting the thread.

I believe Jesus was crucified, Muslims believe Jesus was taken away, you believe there is a body and a spirit that were separate in the crucifixion. So it’s tough when I respond to a Muslim using history, the Bible, the Qur’an, etc and a Bahai explains “this is what we believe about it.”

Anyways, I’ve gone on too much about this because as I said, I could be completely wrong.

Thank you dear friend for your very kind and understanding response.

Yes I feel if you do not want any one but Muslims to discuss with Catholics then it should be made plain at the start of the thread. I would be offended if any Baha’i then ignored that and tried to participate.
I am wondering if you would stipulate also only Catholic, as I am sure that other Christians, may differ in opinions as well?

Sad is it not that a faith gets divided against itself, I know that within my Faith it is something very seriously frowned upon by Baha’u’llah. But He has given us a Covenant to prevent serious division, of course some have tried as some Christians point out, but if they seriously studied these divisions they would discover how small they are, and will quickly fade and die out.

Anyway back to your points, regarding the belief of Muslims re the Crucifixion, yes many appear to misunderstand their own book, sorry that is my belief, as Baha’u’llah has explained for the Baha’is the true meaning behind what is mentioned in the Quran.
And I know that not all Muslims or indeed all Christians will accept that interpretation, but then He is the messenger of God as I believe and of course God’s knowledge is correct and man can’t really ask why But of course as history shows us they do

And now possibly I have gone on enough from my view.
Anyway dear friend, please no hard feelings, we all have to put up with some things in life.
Best wishes to you.

 

[daler]

Anyway back to your points, regarding the belief of Muslims re the Crucifixion, yes many appear to misunderstand their own book, sorry that is my belief, as Baha’u’llah has explained for the Baha’is the true meaning behind what is mentioned in the Quran.
And I know that not all Muslims or indeed all Christians will accept that interpretation, but then He is the messenger of God as I believe and of course God’s knowledge is correct and man can’t really ask why But of course as history shows us they do

And now possibly I have gone on enough from my view.
Anyway dear friend, please no hard feelings, we all have to put up with some things in life.
Best wishes to you.

. It would seem to me that having (name removed by moderator)ut from those who do accept Muhammad as a Prophet of God, who are not identified as Muslims, and who regard the Quran as authentic Revelation, would have something worth hearing on this particular topic.

. It would also possibly be in the interests of the dialogue to be as detached as possible from the traditional prejudices which hinder objectivity. When people who have, in particular, inherited their beliefs, far too often they have also inherited a restricted mindset towards the beliefs outside of their familiarity. This is pretty much human nature at work.

. I think that we all need to step outside ourselves and review what it is that is going on in the process of examining the beliefs of others, so that there is not a tendency to fall into the rut of “us” and “them”, which further deteriorates into “our beliefs” and “their beliefs”.

. What I mean to say is that psychologically, we fall into these ruts like a skipping record from the old days, scratched by someone previously playing the record, and that we tend to inherit the scratch along with the record.

. I would not want to go to Court where such a scratched record is being played…

.