Could it be true? The Quran is not anti-Trinitarian?

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Hey Islam_1995.

I just want to give a quick warning that many of the topics that are made to be between Christians and Muslims are often “hi-jacked” for lack of a better term by the Bahai. Because the questions in the title are not directed explicitly towards Muslims (which I think should be the future strategy) you’ll get opinions that contradict both the teachings of Islam and Christianity.

Secondly, I think you should back away from the “Christianity adopted pagan beliefs and didn’t believe Jesus is God until the fourth century.” I know this is a conspiracy that is prevalent among Muslims, but you’ll quickly come to accept historically the Trinity was always believed in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I’m just saving you the hassle of figuring this out over the next year or so you spend here.

Thirdly, as I pointed out earlier in this thread; the Trinity is never explicitly mentioned in the Qur’an but rather the number, “Three.” When the three is brought up, Mary is usually mentioned which is an error on the Qur’ans part as the three in one never consisted of Mary.
dronald,
. If my (name removed by moderator)ut is welcome, sir, I did a bit of research into the matter of the inclusion of Mary as part of the Trinity and some may find it of interest as per the specific topic of the thread:

Commenting on verse 4:171, George Sale says:

Namely, God, Jesus and Mary. For the eastern writers mention a sect of Christians which held the Trinity to be composed of those three; but it is allowed that this heresy has been long since extinct. The passage, however, is equally levelled against the Holy Trinity, according to the doctrine of the orthodox Christians, who, as Al Beidawi acknowledges, believe the divine nature to consist of three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; by the Father, understanding God’s essence, by the Son, his knowledge, and by the Holy Ghost, his life.[4]

It is pretty clear that whether the ‘Holy’ Trinity composed of the Father, Jesus(P) and the Mary(P) or the Father, Jesus(P) and the Holy Spirit are equally condemned in the Qur’an. Any association of partners with the God is unacceptable.

Further Edward Gibbon in his book The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire says:

The Christians of the seventh century had insensibly relapsed into a semblance of paganism: their public and private vows were addressed to the relics and images that disgraced the temples of the East: the throne of the Almighty was darkened by the clouds of martyrs, and saints, and angels, the objects of popular veneration; and the Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soil of Arabia, invested the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.[5]

.
 
. It would seem to me that having (name removed by moderator)ut from those who do accept Muhammad as a Prophet of God, who are not identified as Muslims, and who regard the Quran as authentic Revelation, would have something worth hearing on this particular topic.

. It would also possibly be in the interests of the dialogue to be as detached as possible from the traditional prejudices which hinder objectivity. When people who have, in particular, inherited their beliefs, far too often they have also inherited a restricted mindset towards the beliefs outside of their familiarity. This is pretty much human nature at work.

. I think that we all need to step outside ourselves and review what it is that is going on in the process of examining the beliefs of others, so that there is not a tendency to fall into the rut of “us” and “them”, which further deteriorates into “our beliefs” and “their beliefs”.

. What I mean to say is that psychologically, we fall into these ruts like a skipping record from the old days, scratched by someone previously playing the record, and that we tend to inherit the scratch along with the record.

. I would not want to go to Court where such a scratched record is being played…

.
Dear daler, thank you for your comments, re the discussion.
I can fully agree with your statement, about having an open mind and wanting to hear all sides to an argument/discussion, but if a person or persons do not wish to hear, what do our teachings tell us.
Does it not say to respect their decision? to argue/discuss no more to leave them in the hands of God.

As the Master would respond “you walk your path and I will walk mine”

To continue to tell someone of your belief after they have expressed a desire to hear no more is fruitless and certainly not a way of promoting love and understanding.

Loving regards to you
 
happyme

You wrote, “Now I do not know exactly what you mean by saying that you have met God the Father. As God has never revealed Himself to mankind, I believe that if He did actually reveal Himself we would cease to exist. Now you go onto to say that God is love etc, these things I fully know and believe.”

I meant exactly what I wrote, when Who we refer to as God the Father revealed Himself to me in my heart I knew that It was God the Father.

As far as you saying, “Now you go onto to say that God is love etc, these things I fully know and believe.”, I can see how you could believe this but how could you “fully know” unless it was somehow revealed to you since knowing and believing do NOT mean the same thing?

You also wrote, “But as Human beings I believe we only understand God through His Messengers,”

That’s fine that you believe that but God works in ways that you might not believe.
 
Ok I will try to answer your questions.
I can see how you could believe this but how could you “fully know” unless it was somehow revealed to you since knowing and believing do NOT mean the same thing?
How can one explain in a few short sentences, what you ask? I will try.
I have had experiences in my life, where I know God has guided my life, He has shown me things that can’t be explained, I guess in you words would say revealed.

As you say
I meant exactly what I wrote, when Who we refer to as God the Father revealed Himself to me in my heart I knew that It was God the Father.
But for me it was not only in my heart but revealed in my sight, a happening when praying for guidance that many would say was miracle, but I saw as the answer to my prayer.
Now as this was for me, I know many would not believe what I experienced, so would prefer to keep within my own heart and continually praise God for my experience.

You further say
You also wrote, “But as Human beings I believe we only understand God through His Messengers,”
That’s fine that you believe that but God works in ways that you might not believe.
This I can believe, yes God works in ways beyond many peoples understanding, This I believe because of my experience I had mentioned above. But as for the full understanding, of God, what He expects of us as His creation this knowledge only is seen in, and comes from His messengers. As my walk for many years with Jesus as a Christian, we understand the unconditional love of God, but also of course we learn of our obligations towards God. This has increased for me tenfold after discovering the truth the Baha’i faith, and the teachings have increased my love of Jesus, God and all the prophets of God. I consider I have learn’t far more, and have become a far better Christian/Baha’i because of the teachings of Baha’u’llah.

Love and peace my friend
 
happyme

You wrote, “Now I do not know exactly what you mean by saying that you have met God the Father. As God has never revealed Himself to mankind, I believe that if He did actually reveal Himself we would cease to exist. Now you go onto to say that God is love etc, these things I fully know and believe.”

I meant exactly what I wrote, when Who we refer to as God the Father revealed Himself to me in my heart I knew that It was God the Father.

As far as you saying, “Now you go onto to say that God is love etc, these things I fully know and believe.”, I can see how you could believe this but how could you “fully know” unless it was somehow revealed to you since knowing and believing do NOT mean the same thing?

You also wrote, “But as Human beings I believe we only understand God through His Messengers,”

That’s fine that you believe that but God works in ways that you might not believe.
It would seem to me that even as Jesus pre-existed, (Before Abraham was, I am), and finally took on a human identity for our sakes and lived and died amongst us, with His being the station of “The Son”, why is it then impossible to consider that the Father, being also present, and Before Abraham, be incapable of taking on human identity for our sakes, living and dying amongst us?

There are some few who in the course of their lives have become convinced in their own visionary experience that they have briefly been in the presence of One Whom they regarded to be either the “Son” or the “Father”, personified before them, in a vision to which they bore witness, despite accusations.

The Mount of Transfiguration, I believe, held similar visions, with Moses, Jesus, and Elijah, appearing before natural men. How are we so quick to believe such ancient accounts purely on historically recorded accounts yet dismiss credible witnesses (as opposed to the less credible for various reasons) when they give an account when all that we know of them up to this point is most favorable in all assessments of the unblemished character of their lives?

Must one be dead and gone and lived thousands of years ago to have a vision acceptable in modern times? Are we so far removed the hand of God that it has not guided men, and been silent, for 2000 years? Why would certain souls lack the capacity to fulfill the promises: “Your old men will dream dreams, and the young men have visions.”

.
 
daler

You wrote, “The Mount of Transfiguration, I believe, held similar visions, with Moses, Jesus, and Elijah, appearing before natural men. How are we so quick to believe such ancient accounts purely on historically recorded accounts yet dismiss credible witnesses (as opposed to the less credible for various reasons) when they give an account when all that we know of them up to this point is most favorable in all assessments of the unblemished character of their lives?”

As far as " when they give an account when all that we know of them up to this point is most favorable in all assessments of the unblemished character of their lives", if one were to look at those that are referred to as prophets in the bible and others chosen by God, one would see that having an “unblemished character” is NOT a prerequisite for being chosen by God, some had very blemished characters.

Besides meeting Who is referred to as God the Father, I also met Who is referred to as the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

This was/is God’s Way of letting me know, not just believe, that Jesus is not merely a prophet but God-Incarnate.

God did not need to become Incarnate more than once, God did what needed to be done according to God’s Plan in this Incarnation.

God has had this Plan since before creation and it is unfolding before our very eyes and God’s Plan will come to Fruition.
 
Besides meeting Who is referred to as God the Father, I also met Who is referred to as the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

This was/is God’s Way of letting me know, not just believe, that Jesus is not merely a prophet but God-Incarnate.

God has had this Plan since before creation and it is unfolding before our very eyes and God’s Plan will come to Fruition.
Tom,
. Thank you for your intimate post. Back in 1974 I had a most profound vision, a mystical experience, if you will, which was beyond all ordinary human occurrence, at least in my life. I had been deeply praying and fasting for a month, truly seeking the Lord, when on night, late, on the way to my room, something stopped me. I had a certain distinct intimation that something “out of the ordinary” was to happen that night.

. I gave it no further thought, for I was so very tired, and only had four hours to sleep. Having fallen asleep around midnight, I suddenly awakened, perhaps about 2 am. The room in which I slept was illumined. As my eyes were open and I was definitely conscious, I first looked up at the sole light in the ceiling, which was not on. Following the Light to Its Source was the luminous Figure of a Being, radiant in the purest Light, but Whose features I could not describe while I definitely perceived the folds of His garment stretching to the floor, and His feet beneath.
Code:
.   For perhaps 5 or 10 seconds, the vision lasted, and suddenly He was gone.  Needless to say, I was moved to the depths of my soul, arose from my bed, and hoped to find someone suitable to confide in.   The person I spoke to simply expressed the idea that it must have been Jesus, or an Angel, but I did not feel comfortable to put such a label on the One Whom I saw, for I truly did not know.
. This never happened again, although over the years I did have a few recurring dreams of the Figure Whom I believe was my special Visitor. I have shared this with perhaps no more than a dozen people in all this time, yet somehow find myself sharing this with you here and at this time, for the spirit leads me to do so. Perhaps there is some reason for it, or that it be intended for some reason.

. Such things are normally kept private, you know, as they are meant for our own benefit. Yet on some rare occasion, in sharing this with another, I’ve met a few who have had something to share similarly with me which is truly out of the ordinary and has so affected their life as this has mine. It has led me, no doubt, to my current beliefs and understanding of God and has illumined for me a path which has provided me with the answers I needed and the direction for my life and beliefs.

. May God bless and confirm you in your spiritual journey.
. Most sincerely,
. Dale

PS It was nearly 6 years later that I had an encounter in the home of a certain soul, in the corner of his living room was a photograph of a most noble Figure. Upon seeing this photo, I was riveted to the floor where I stood, my eyes transfixed upon His image.
. Finally, I blurted out: “WHO is that?!!?” My host, upon seeing that something was happening with me, studied my eyes for a long moment, and began telling me Who the Person in the photographs was: Abdul Baha, the Son of Baha’u’llah, the Prophet Founder of the Baha’i Faith.
. He then proceeded to tell my of a significant dream he had once had in which Abdul Baha guided him to a certain house in another town, up a side street. The next day, unfamiliar with the town (they were desperate to find a home to live in, as his new job depended upon their moving), they were almost out of time, very frustrated, when suddenly, they drove past the street. Turning, and proceeding down this same street, there was the house in the dream. Low and behold, it was for rent, and suited to their needs.
. Others, he recounted, had similar tales to tell of sacred encounters. Though few in number, over the years, I met 3 or 4 who shared something of the same extraordinary experiences.
.
 
I have had experiences in my life, where I know God has guided my life, He has shown me things that can’t be explained, I guess in you words would say revealed.

But for me it was not only in my heart but revealed in my sight, a happening when praying for guidance that many would say was miracle, but I saw as the answer to my prayer.
There are some few who in the course of their lives have become convinced in their own visionary experience that they have briefly been in the presence of One Whom they regarded to be either the “Son” or the “Father”, personified before them, in a vision to which they bore witness, despite accusations.

The Mount of Transfiguration, I believe, held similar visions, with Moses, Jesus, and Elijah, appearing before natural men. How are we so quick to believe such ancient accounts purely on historically recorded accounts yet dismiss credible witnesses (as opposed to the less credible for various reasons) when they give an account when all that we know of them up to this point is most favorable in all assessments of the unblemished character of their lives?

Must one be dead and gone and lived thousands of years ago to have a vision acceptable in modern times? Are we so far removed the hand of God that it has not guided men, and been silent, for 2000 years? Why would certain souls lack the capacity to fulfill the promises: “Your old men will dream dreams, and the young men have visions.”.
Back in 1974 I had a most profound vision, a mystical experience, if you will, which was beyond all ordinary human occurrence, at least in my life. I had been deeply praying and fasting for a month, truly seeking the Lord, when on night, late, on the way to my room, something stopped me. I had a certain distinct intimation that something “out of the ordinary” was to happen that night. Others, he recounted, had similar tales to tell of sacred encounters. Though few in number, over the years, I met 3 or 4 who shared something of the same extraordinary experiences.
.
All sounds wonderful. You can read these same experiences confirming the Trinity in Catholicism and through the age’s consistently.

Its a known, private revelation-CCC, it occurs frequent enough that its addressed, but thanks for sharing.

Here at CAF, while its nice for others to share their dreams, delusions and mystical experience it does little to further the conversation. There are literally hundreds of links with personal testimony in Christianity. If I had to go with a verdict, the preponderance of evidence would sway in the favor of the Christians. Just saying.
 
Jesus Christ is the objective truth. exactly who He claimed to be. The Living God.

I don’t see where He was lying.

I don’t see where He was delusional.

Don’t see where He was ignorant.

Do you???

Don’t see where two thousand years of confirmation attests to mistaken understanding by followers. Pretty much through history the opposite is indeed true.

Leaves us with door number three…God Almighty!

Thus according to the NT which admittedly we have different opinions from outside source’s as we see above. Let alone that one may truly be ignorant in making assertions with no consideration of objections, which as we say you have contextual pretext. Basically a circular argument with the incorrect application of a valid logical principle. or worse an application of a nonexistent principle:

In other words what one thinks about Jesus not being God, doesn’t make their position correct. Certainly not according to Scripture. Our position isn’t contingent on their misunderstanding in faulty conclusions, denial or delusion.

One truth is certain God is not a God of confusion and chaos who scattered His followers and led them to untruth

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered them, See that no one leads you astray.

Mark 13:5 Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you.

Mark 13:6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many.
 
Well just off the top of my head I would merely suggest Explicit and Implicit becomes an issue.

Simple reason being Allah said He was the greatest deceiver. 😉
 
Who has the authority to interpret the Quran? Do Muslims have the authority to interpret the New Testament?

From my view the Quran itself confirms the validity of the OT/NT

answering-islam.org/Shamoun/bible_authentic1.htm

"The dilemma for the Muslim is quite apparent. To accept the Quran is to accept its testimony that the Holy Bible is the preserved Word of God. And yet to accept the Holy Bible is to reject both the Quran and Muhammad. The first Muslims evidently thought that by appealing to the Holy Bible they would be verifying the prophetic claims of Muhammad. Little did they realize that their appeal to the Holy Scriptures for verification purposes actually proves that Muhammad cannot be a true prophet since he contradicts the message of God’s true prophets and messengers, especially the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ, God’s beloved Son.

On the flip side, to attack the Holy Bible is to discredit the Quran which confirms the authority, availability, and authenticity of the previous scriptures. Either way, Muslims are in a no win situation."

Then it seems to me we have a double standard as suggested from the on-set. Or of course the Quran could not be anti Bible.
 
Well just off the top of my head I would merely suggest Explicit and Implicit becomes an issue.

Simple reason being Allah said He was the greatest deceiver. 😉
Gary,
. I have trouble following the logic inherent in the argument that “Allah was the greatest deceiver” when all Arabic speaking Christians believe in Allah… 😉

. This is like saying: “Sol is not the sun” to Spanish speaking people!
 
Gary,
. I have trouble following the logic inherent in the argument that “Allah was the greatest deceiver” when all Arabic speaking Christians believe in Allah… 😉

. This is like saying: “Sol is not the sun” to Spanish speaking people!
I’m talking about the reality that the Quran is not 1.clear and obvious, thus explicit to begin with. Christians using the term Allah has nothing to do with it. Nor do they follow the Quran.

Revelation

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out upon the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

Deception isn’t consistent with the truth.- 1.practice of misleading somebody: the practice of deliberately making somebody believe things that are not true

There’s nothing explicit being the point. unless the practice of misleading people to believe what is not true is an attribute of God. Certainly not Biblically. Thus I would suggest either the Bible has satan confused with God or the Quran does. To which the Bible warns.

If its not explicit in this area, then its not explicit since the entire context is hinged on a lie.

And since we are talking God and the Trinity, there should be no reason not to see we are discussing completely different concepts It should be no surprise Muslims don’t understand.

Its about the same reading the wizard of oz so I could then discuss God with Christians and insist I believe in the wizard of oz so the Christian understanding must be wrong.

You do not have the authority to interpret the Bible, just like I don’t have the authority to interpret the Quran for muslims.
 
Gary,
. I have trouble following the logic inherent in the argument that “Allah was the greatest deceiver” when all Arabic speaking Christians believe in Allah… 😉

. This is like saying: “Sol is not the sun” to Spanish speaking people!
Arabic Christians also worship Jesus Christ as Allah.
 
Gary,
. I have trouble following the logic inherent in the argument that “Allah was the greatest deceiver” when all Arabic speaking Christians believe in Allah… 😉

. This is like saying: “Sol is not the sun” to Spanish speaking people!
Allah in Arabic simply means God, just like God in English simply means God.

For one who speaks English to say that they believe in God could mean that they believe in any of the myriad of gods or god or God that people have believed in since whenever, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they believe in the God of the bible.

Saying that “all Arabic speaking Christians believe in Allah” does not mean that they believe in the “Allah” of the Quran but that they believe in God.

Allah is a generic Arabic word for God and probably gods also and it is also what the god of the koran is called.

In the bible, God is spoken of as Yahweh or Yhwh or I AM or other variants and sometimes referred to as Lord, God and other ways.

To say that “all Arabic speaking Christians believe in Allah” is very misleading since some would think that it refers only to the god of the koran but the word “Allah” does NOT only mean who is mentioned in the koran.
 
Allah in Arabic simply means God, just like God in English simply means God.

For one who speaks English to say that they believe in God could mean that they believe in any of the myriad of gods or god or God that people have believed in since whenever, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they believe in the God of the bible.

Saying that “all Arabic speaking Christians believe in Allah” does not mean that they believe in the “Allah” of the Quran but that they believe in God.

Allah is a generic Arabic word for God and probably gods also and it is also what the god of the koran is called.

In the bible, God is spoken of as Yahweh or Yhwh or I AM or other variants and sometimes referred to as Lord, God and other ways.

To say that “all Arabic speaking Christians believe in Allah” is very misleading since some would think that it refers only to the god of the koran but the word “Allah” does NOT only mean who is mentioned in the koran.
Tom,
. There is a great tendency both to generalize and demonize others. Its much simpler just to take on a lynch mob approach towards “them”, whoever “they” are. Every single war ever fought succeeds only when “we” are convinced that “they” are inhuman.

. Psychologically, all children apply “gross generalization” to the objects of their world. This is necessary to survive, for no one can function in an overly complex world. People tend to hold to their gross generalizations until such time as they exercise more complex options of discernment in a sophisticated investigation of the world.

. In the world of “beliefs”, this carry over of gross generalization serves to strengthen the herd bond between members of a society where authority figures do the thinking “for us”, so that we don’t have to. Thus, we receive our rewards, accolades, etc, and avoid punishment, ostracism, etc.

. The typical western notion that Muslims worship Allah and Christians worship God, or Gott, is a false notion which really needs to be dispelled. The root of the word Allah is found in the most ancient texts, whether as El, Elah, Elohim, etc.
 
. The typical western notion that Muslims worship Allah and Christians worship God, or Gott, is a false notion which really needs to be dispelled. The root of the word Allah is found in the most ancient texts, whether as El, Elah, Elohim, etc.
It isn’t a false notion, its a true notion. the identity of these Gods contradicts. Christians worship a trinity. Muslims deny the trinity. Therefore we do not have the same God.
 
It isn’t a false notion, its a true notion. the identity of these Gods contradicts. Christians worship a trinity. Muslims deny the trinity. Therefore we do not have the same God.
So why do you think the Catholic Church acknowledges the Islamic God as the same one God as is worshipped in Catholicism?

.
 
So why do you think the Catholic Church acknowledges the Islamic God as the same one God as is worshipped in Catholicism?

.
I think the catholic church has deliberately deceived itself on this issue into believing an impossible thing. For myself I cannot reconcile the islamic God and hte Christian God and say they are one in the same God for the God of the quran says he has no son whereas the gospel of Jesus Christ demands we recognise God have a son.
 
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