Could Jack Chick be Right???

[Caramel]

I have found that you seem to have a lot of restraint, actually. It is difficult to react with anything but anger when the Church founded by Christ, Himself, is called “The Whore.” In all the tracts I have read, that phrase makes me the angriest. And I happen to know you are participating in another thread which brings out all sorts of negative emotions (at least in me).

Peace to you in Christ,
Christina

 

[Caramel]

To Everyone:

Yesterday I stated that I would be posting errors from another Chick track today. Unfortunately, although my notes are ready I can’t post them tonight. It’s very difficult to take something out of comic book format, put it in regular writing, and then point out the errors.

I believe I will be able to post it tomorrow. The tract I will be posting about is called “Last Rites” and can be easily accessed via googling “Jack Chick tracts,” then clicking on “tracts,” then clicking on “Last Rites.”

 

[Mosacked]

First you ask me to tell you why I think the above is wrong.

In the next sentence you tell me not to tell you my opinion.

Perhaps you should be a bit more clear about what you want me to do.

Caramel, you did not tell us why the above is wrong, you merely quoted. Ralph’s answer in post #157 would be considered an objective view of the issues. And that is how we should be discussing, not giving mere ‘opinions’ and ‘views’.

 

[Mosacked]

I will try to help here. I numbered the points so that I can better answer.

1. The Bible never mentions alter calls, bathrooms, or church socials, either. Monks and nuns are people who dedicate their lives to prayer or service to the church. The Pope is a bishop. Bishops are in the Bible.
2. This was never Church teaching. Christ is not re-crucified. Christ is not “pulled” from heaven or anywhere else. There is no magic involved. The mass is the fulfillment of Christ’s command at the Last Supper.
3. Again, this is just junk. Catholics do not worship anything like it is God or else, we are to worship God and God alone. Catholics do believe (based on the Bible) that Jesus is present in what looks like bread and wine, but if we are correct, and the bible says we are, we are worshiping God.
4. Mass is not sacrificing Jesus again. I do not know where he gets his info. Jesus was sacrificed once and for all.
5. I am not sure what he was saying, so I will not respond. The Church does consider all faithful on earth to be the Church Militant, as we are in a fight for our souls.
6. First, there are seven sacraments, not six. Second, Confirmation, per the Bible, and baptism are the incoming of the Holy Spirit into the faithful. To deny that is to deny the Bible.
7. The Church has never said that the Pope is the highest and closest thing to God on earth. The Church does teach that it has never been in error on matters of faith and morals, but that is not what he is implying
8. Perhaps. She could go to heaven or hell, too.
9. Again, not sure what he is talking about
10. That is incorrect. People are “released” from Purgatory when they are ready for heaven. Masses being said for them or anything else are not required.
11. Again, not sure of the context
12. Incorrect. The Church did not invent Purgatory. Purgatory was part of the Jewish faith of the early Church. We held on to it because the Bible supports its teaching

Firstly, lets not get carried away by the amount of unqualified accusations there and let’s try to balance the views here.

1. To you, these are mere terminologies. The roles are simple and sincere in their nature, just the names are different/added on. But to others, these (including the rosary, candles, costumes, statues etc) comprise an entire system of ‘practices’ which are not known in the Bible. – Which is undeniably correct. Because there are truly no such ‘practices’ in the Bible, unless you can show us otherwise.
2. You can call it Mass, you can call it Ceremony etc etc. I believe the concern is not the terminology but what is done and practiced during the session. You believe in the Trans-substantiation? The others don’t…they only believe the Holy Communion is merely symbolic. This is the root of the difference.
3. Again, a result of above point 2.
4. Do you offer animal sacrifices? If you don’t I don’t understand why there is point 4 either.
5. I think he/she refers to the crusades and/or Inquisition.
6. The Bible has an instance in the book of Acts where a man was baptized but not in the name of Jesus and subsequently baptized AGAIN by Peter in the name of Jesus. AFTER which, something happened and the apostles exclaimed….”Holy Ghost!”. Look for that story and you will see that the Holy Spirit was poured out on these people and the apostles SAW . Now, can you SEE the Holy Spirit being poured during/after baptism??? You cannot. So what’s missing?..think.
7. I am not here to judge if the Catholic Church has been in error…we are here merely to show the deviations from what is written in the Bible and put them up for mutual understanding, so I refrain from making a comment here.
8. Purgatory?..has always been to me, an interesting idea. But I’ve never been convinced by it. Where in the Canonised Bible is this taught?
9. He/she is saying that Helen was deceived into thinking that the sacraments could save her. You can challenge her if you think she is wrong on this matter.
10. Point taken, I suppose he/she is not informed enough of the concept of Catholic purgatory.
11. Too broad a statement, not qualified. Unable to pursue further.
12. Ok…please show us where purgatory is taught. I would be interested to know too.

 

[greggy53]

Firstly, lets not get carried away by the amount of unqualified accusations there and let’s try to balance the views here.

1. To you, these are mere terminologies. The roles are simple and sincere in their nature, just the names are different/added on. But to others, these (including the rosary, candles, costumes, statues etc) comprise an entire system of ‘practices’ which are not known in the Bible. – Which is undeniably correct. Because there are truly no such ‘practices’ in the Bible, unless you can show us otherwise. .

They are rituals, both Protestant and Catholic. I get a kick out of your term “costume”. Costumes like choir robes? Iv’e seen many a Protestant minister decked out in what could be called a “costume”. Didn’t the ancient Hebrew priest wear specific robes, and ornaments?, and perform certain rituals? It is in the Bible, at least it’s in the real Bible. I don’t know what you are reading.

1. You can call it Mass, you can call it Ceremony etc etc. I believe the concern is not the terminology but what is done and practiced during the session. You believe in the Trans-substantiation? The others don’t…they only believe the Holy Communion is merely symbolic. This is the root of the difference. .

Well if they put it that way then we wouldn’t get so upset….But they don’t, they use derogatory terms like “wafer God” to describe it. And we get upset when non-Christians like Jack Chick blaspheme our Lord.

. I am not here to judge if the Catholic Church has been in error…we are here merely to show the deviations from what is written in the Bible and put them up for mutual understanding, so I refrain from making a comment here .

There is an instance in the Book of Acts where the Church rules against what the Bible says. So, you tell me who has more authority the Church or the Bible? …think.

1. Purgatory?..has always been to me, an interesting idea. But I’ve never been convinced by it. Where in the Canonised Bible is this taught? .

Macabees for one, and Jesus spoke of it as well. The old testament Jews believed in it.
The heresy that disavowed it’s existence did not appear until the so-called reformation.

1. He/she is saying that Helen was deceived into thinking that the sacraments could save her. You can challenge her if you think she is wrong on this matter. .

She was not deceived by the Sacraments. The Sacraments are vehicles of God’s grace and the Bible says we are saved by God’s grace. Therefore the Sacraments provide us an avenue to salvation. It’s in the Bible, at least the real one. Again I don’t know what you are reading. Some heavily edited version no doubt.

 

[ralphinal]

Firstly, lets not get carried away by the amount of unqualified accusations there and let’s try to balance the views here.

1. To you, these are mere terminologies. The roles are simple and sincere in their nature, just the names are different/added on. But to others, these (including the rosary, candles, costumes, statues etc) comprise an entire system of ‘practices’ which are not known in the Bible. – Which is undeniably correct. Because there are truly no such ‘practices’ in the Bible, unless you can show us otherwise.

If you are basing your faith system on that which is expressly shown in the Bible, you have no ritual at all. Catholic mass is based on the Didache, among other things, which dates from the time of the Apostles.

1. You can call it Mass, you can call it Ceremony etc etc. I believe the concern is not the terminology but what is done and practiced during the session. You believe in the Trans-substantiation? The others don’t…they only believe the Holy Communion is merely symbolic. This is the root of the difference.

The support for the Real Presence is clear in Scriptures. What you point to is a difference in understanding of the Bible. You cannot prove to me that my point is invalid because yours disagrees. In fact, your point of view is NOT consistent with the early Church

1. Again, a result of above point 2.

1. Do you offer animal sacrifices? If you don’t I don’t understand why there is point 4 either.

Jack Chick claims it. It is a lie that he printed

1. I think he/she refers to the crusades and/or Inquisition.

1. The Bible has an instance in the book of Acts where a man was baptized but not in the name of Jesus and subsequently baptized AGAIN by Peter in the name of Jesus. AFTER which, something happened and the apostles exclaimed….”Holy Ghost!”. Look for that story and you will see that the Holy Spirit was poured out on these people and the apostles SAW . Now, can you SEE the Holy Spirit being poured during/after baptism??? You cannot. So what’s missing?..think.

Someone said blessed are those who do not see yet believe. I can’t recall who it was

1. I am not here to judge if the Catholic Church has been in error…we are here merely to show the deviations from what is written in the Bible and put them up for mutual understanding, so I refrain from making a comment here

Which came first, the Bible or the Church?

1. Purgatory?..has always been to me, an interesting idea. But I’ve never been convinced by it. Where in the Canonised Bible is this taught?

1. He/she is saying that Helen was deceived into thinking that the sacraments could save her. You can challenge her if you think she is wrong on this matter.

1. Point taken, I suppose he/she is not informed enough of the concept of Catholic purgatory.

1. Too broad a statement, not qualified. Unable to pursue further.

1. Ok…please show us where purgatory is taught. I would be interested to know too.

Others will discuss Purgatory

 

[Hiskid1973]

“There is an instance in the Book of Acts where the Church rules against what the Bible says. So, you tell me who has more authority the Church or the Bible? …think.”

I’ve heard a lot about the church and the bible in my time but I’ve never heard this…Would you please give the scriptures your referring to so we all can see what going on…Thanks…God Bless…

 

[ralphinal]

“There is an instance in the Book of Acts where the Church rules against what the Bible says. So, you tell me who has more authority the Church or the Bible? …think.”

I’ve heard a lot about the church and the bible in my time but I’ve never heard this…Would you please give the scriptures your referring to so we all can see what going on…Thanks…God Bless…

My guess is that they are referring to the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 about if a Gentile had to follow the Mosaic law to be a Christian. There were no NT scriptures at this time, so everything would be based on the OT.

 

[greggy53]

“There is an instance in the Book of Acts where the Church rules against what the Bible says. So, you tell me who has more authority the Church or the Bible? …think.”

I’ve heard a lot about the church and the bible in my time but I’ve never heard this…Would you please give the scriptures your referring to so we all can see what going on…Thanks…God Bless…

The council of Jerusalem Acts 15…St Peter declared that Jewish converts did not have to be circumcised even though the scriptures said they did…By what authority was the scripture and commandment overruled? St Peter declared in verse 28:
“For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us, to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things:”

Who is us??? The Church, and the Holy Spirit that guides the Church… The Bible declares that: “The Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth”.
That same Church is the one, holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of today.!

I’n not suprised you never heard of it. Protestants only preach on and believe what they want to believe from the Bible.

 

[Hiskid1973]

My guess is that they are referring to the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 about if a Gentile had to follow the Mosaic law to be a Christian. There were no NT scriptures at this time, so everything would be based on the OT.

Ok , I understand if that’s the case…It just sounded “weird”. Definite change between oc and nc…That really doesn’t fit with the case he is trying to make…peace to you!

 

[greggy53]

Ok , I understand if that’s the case…It just sounded “weird”. Definite change between oc and nc…That really doesn’t fit with the case he is trying to make…peace to you!

Really? so you are saying the old testament isn’t scripture?..

 

[Hiskid1973]

Really? so you are saying the old testament isn’t scripture?..

No never said that…Just doesn’t fit with the comment and the point you were trying to make…Sure there is a differance between the OC and NC…Thew whole covenant concept changed…The church started in the NT…The jewish mindset in the converts had to adjust to it…Just let it go, I don’t think your seeing what I’m trying to say…

 

[mcbob]

No problem Estelle. Also, nothing wrong with being in the treches defending your faith.
I hope to learn more about :thumbsup:Catholicism from this site. I realized how little I really knew about your faith when I began reading Church History at seminary.

 

[mcbob]

I read two books that were very helpful for me, (someone from an evangelical protestant background), to understand Catholicism. I may not have the following titles correct:

Born Evangelical Born Again Catholic

• Catholic and christian*

One of the great mind opening experiences for me was something the author said from the first title I listed.

" The bible is not a ‘how to book’ "
“The book comes with a church”

A benefit I received from reading the above two books was the ability to see a continuity between the Gospels, Acts, the Epistles, and the writings of Clement and the other church Fathers.

Unfortunately, I have never read any cartoons that were as fair minded as the above two books reference Catholicism. To reach the audience that Chick reaches both of the above books should be put in cartoon form and distibuted everywhere.

 

[Caramel]

To All Thread Participants:

I received a PM from another forum member this morning. She told me that somebody has hacked into CAF and is posting pornography.

I don’t know if this means that a virus could go from CAF to any member’s computer. It’s up to you if you want to take that chance.

It may be gone now. I haven’t seen any pornography but I just now logged in.

It might be a good idea to logout when you leave, other than to just close CAF on your screen.

 

[greggy53]

No never said that…Just doesn’t fit with the comment and the point you were trying to make…Sure there is a differance between the OC and NC…Thew whole covenant concept changed…The church started in the NT…The jewish mindset in the converts had to adjust to it…Just let it go, I don’t think your seeing what I’m trying to say…

I understand what you are trying to do…skirt the issue…The comment was about the accusation that the Church does not follow, or does things that are not found in scripture. My point, and my scripture to back it up was that the Church has the authority to do what it does just like the Church did in Acts 15. The scriptures I quoted were from the NT, so trying to muddy the waters between the old and new testament won’t work. The old testament is just as much the word of God as the New… If you don’t believe that then you need to go back to Bible school. The problem you have as a Protestant is you are not being fed the whole truth contained in the scriptures. You are getting some, but without the guidance of the Church, and the Holy Spirit that guides it you will not receive the fullness of truth. Remember: “The Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth” Not the Bible!

 

[greggy53]

I read two books that were very helpful for me, (someone from an evangelical protestant background), to understand Catholicism. I may not have the following titles correct:

Born Evangelical Born Again Catholic

• Catholic and christian*

One of the great mind opening experiences for me was something the author said from the first title I listed.

" The bible is not a ‘how to book’ "
“The book comes with a church”

A benefit I received from reading the above two books was the ability to see a continuity between the Gospels, Acts, the Epistles, and the writings of Clement and the other church Fathers.

Unfortunately, I have never read any cartoons that were as fair minded as the above two books reference Catholicism. To reach the audience that Chick reaches both of the above books should be put in cartoon form and distibuted everywhere.

Well I have to disagree with at least one thing your author said:
“The book comes with a Church”

The author has it backwards:
“The Church comes with a book”

 

[Hiskid1973]

I understand what you are trying to do…skirt the issue…

Hey if that’s what you think, fine with me…

 

[sambos671]

I wonder what the Jesuit stance on Jack Chick is especially since they are the ones most attacked by him.

 

[mcbob]

I understand your point.