Could Jesus have sinned and if not

  • Thread starter Thread starter VeritasLuxMea
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
V

VeritasLuxMea

Guest
I recently read the following regarding the cursing of the fig tree,

christiancourier.com/articles/646-why-did-jesus-curse-the-fig-tree
Third, it must be emphasized that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He himself possesses the nature of deity (Jn. 1:1; 10:30; 20:28). As deity, therefore, the earth and its fullness are his (Psa. 24:1). He has the sovereign right to use the elements of creation to accomplish those higher goals which man, limited in his knowledge, may not perceive at a given moment in time. And that includes the destruction of a tree, or even a herd of swine (cf. Mk. 5:13). No man has the right to say of him, “What doest thou?” (Dan. 4:35; cf. Rom. 11:33-36).
I don’t believe this is a Catholic author, but I just wanted to use that as a starting off point.

So this leads me to ask,
  1. Is it possible for Jesus (or God) to sin?
For example, let’s pretend that when Jesus met Peter, he lied. Let’s pretend he said, “Hello, Peter. My name is Malachi. I was born sixty five years ago. I am a map maker.”

Since that is not true and Jesus knows it is not true, it is a lie. If Jesus had done that, would it have been a sin?

However, the author seems to imply something about “ownership”, so let me try a different example. I know this sounds blasphemous, I apologize, I’m just using the scenario to try to understand the concept. So if Jesus had broken into someone’s home in the middle of the night and strangled an innocent newborn to death… would that be a sin?
  1. If Jesus (and God) cannot sin, even when doing something that would be sinful for a man to do, then what do we mean when we say that God is “good”? In other words, if God can do something evil without it being called evil, why would we call him “good”?
 
  1. No. Never.
  2. We tend to think as man does, not as God does. God has absolute dominion over all of creation. He can take our lives at His pleasure. He gave us life at His pleasure! To attempt to exert control over creation that God has not specifically given us is to usurp His authority. It is to make ourselves as gods. God is free to give us whatever He pleases, bur we are not free to take it of our own accord. It must be received from Him.
 
Jesus never sinned, because He was always in God’s perfect will,
To ask whether he would have killed a child or lied is just silly. Look at the actions he did while on earth - he healed people, rescued them, forgave them, loved them into holiness.
If he had lied or killed, he wouldn’t have been Jesus.

God does things that we don’t understand, such as allowing murder, letting people die of illnesses, and other difficult events. But He is looking at our lives from the perspective of heaven; death is not the worst thing that can happen to us. He doesn’t do evil things, He allows us free will and we sometimes choose to do evil things, but that’s what happens when you allow people to have free will.
He works everything for good for those who are called according to his will.
 
  1. No. Never.
  2. We tend to think as man does, not as God does. God has absolute dominion over all of creation. He can take our lives at His pleasure. He gave us life at His pleasure! To attempt to exert control over creation that God has not specifically given us is to usurp His authority. It is to make ourselves as gods. God is free to give us whatever He pleases, bur we are not free to take it of our own accord. It must be received from Him.
…but wouldn’t that mean that God does not have the quality called “goodness”? I mean if God can do literally anything he wants without it being evil, then there is no way to judge Him as “good.” He would then simply be God, a dictator with all the power in the world but no claim to “goodness.”
 
Jesus never sinned, because He was always in God’s perfect will,
To ask whether he would have killed a child or lied is just silly. Look at the actions he did while on earth - he healed people, rescued them, forgave them, loved them into holiness.
If he had lied or killed, he wouldn’t have been Jesus.
Well, but if Jesus is God, then Jesus did kill many people… because God killed many people. So I guess I could have skipped that question.

But anyway, that’s where it gets confusing. How can God kill people and yet be “good”? The word seems to lose it’s meaning at that point. It would be like if I said, “Viki is good, no matter what he/she does.” What does “good” mean in that sentence?
 
…but wouldn’t that mean that God does not have the quality called “goodness”? I mean if God can do literally anything he wants without it being evil, then there is no way to judge Him as “good.” He would then simply be God, a dictator with all the power in the world but no claim to “goodness.”
God’s definition of goodness is not man’s definition. The only reason that we have the ten commandments is because we must live under that law, being lawbreakers by nature. God, being perfect, is not bound to them, as they apply solely to man. Our thinking, including our concept and definition of “goodness” is based upon our fallen, corrupted nature - thus we cannot understand the true goodness that is God.
 
…but wouldn’t that mean that God does not have the quality called “goodness”? I mean if God can do literally anything he wants without it being evil, then there is no way to judge Him as “good.” He would then simply be God, a dictator with all the power in the world but no claim to “goodness.”
This is my approach to this issue, which I’m sure has been thought up a thousand times, but which I have not seen confirmed or denied explicitly. That is, I am not claiming to present Church teaching or anything, but just presenting the ideas I’ve come up with because they make sense to me. Some of what I say I know is true, but I’m not quiet awake enough at the moment to be able to indicate which. The key statement that I’m not absolutely certain about (but which I do think is probably true) is that it doesn’t make sense to say that God could be in any way other than how He is.

I think part of the problem is that you’re looking at goodness as something that exists apart from God, as though there is some external standard by which we can judge Him. There simply isn’t.

You could say that this makes good arbitrary, but this is not so because God is not arbitrary and what goodness is is tied up in what God is. That is, you could claim that God could somehow be otherwise and thus what we call good would be otherwise and so that goodness is just the rules of how God happens to be. This fails though because God must be exactly how He is - there is no otherwise. So while Goodness does depend on how God is, that’s pretty much the same thing as saying that Goodness depends on what Goodness is and doesn’t necessarily indicate that it is arbitrary - and we know (if I’m right) that it is not arbitrary because Goodness could not be any other possible way (because God couldn’t be any other possible way).

So - it is not that whatever God chooses to do is good casually because He chose to do it (or command it), but that there is very little difference between saying that an action is good and that God wills it at all. Our perception of good is in fact a partial perception of the nature of God. In those cases where, assuming our perceptions are accurate we would perceive something to be bad, this thing is something that God does not will and so something that God would not do.

Hence, Jesus simply would not sneak into someone’s house and murder a child for absolutely no reason, not because He doesn’t have the right to, but because God does not desire such things to happen. (Though He does desire that we be able to act contrary to His desires if we so choose which is why they can, but any more on that would be a bit off topic I think.)

That said, God does in fact have the right to end our lives (or, if you prefer to think of it this way, to move us to the next stage of our eternal lives earlier than we otherwise might), and so if there was something God wished to accomplish by ending one of our lives He could do so. Since we only continue to exist because of God’s continued desire that we do so, it could hardly be said that God has no right to just stop desiring our existence at all and for us to completely cease to exist - God is actively maintaining our existence and so we can have no claims against Him at all because all that we have is from Him and is His.

He doesn’t do that - this would be depriving us of existence, the fundamental good and God desires good for all of us - however since it is clear that there is no external standard that would make it wrong for Him to stop willing our existence entirely if He wanted to, it is clear that there cannot be such a standard that would prevent Him from changing our mode of existence from alive to dead. I say “external” to emphasize that the mere fact that He does not do so means that there is a standard, it’s just that the standard is Him - He “prevents” Himself from doing so if you want to think of it that way, but there is no way in which we could say, without referencing His own nature, that to do so would be unjust because we have no claims on Him; all of what would be good or bad for Him (or, indeed, us) to do is bound up in what He is.

Or, in short, God could kill us all if He wanted in such a way that the action was moral, but since we know that He desires the best for us, we can be justified in believing that if in someway God did decide that it was time for someone to die then that would be, in the grand scheme of things (which includes the little scheme of things, just to be clear) the best possible time for that person to die. But again, this is not to say that in such case we would have God arbitrarily deciding to kill someone at a specific time and so that time becoming the best time for the person to die, but that God’s Godness, or good’s goodness (which is pretty much the same thing), make that the best time for the person to die and furthermore for it to be best that God directly cause it to occur, and so God’s will that God directly cause the death, and so God’s action of killing. Furthermore, all three of those things (best time, God’s will, God’s action) happen at the same time (casually, that is - time does not apply) in the same way because all three are more or less the same thing.

That’s my take on things anyway, hopefully it’s at least somewhat decipherable. (And if it’s not, I’m blaming it on the fact that it’s 3 am and for some unknown reason I’m just now trying to explain it.)
 
I recently read the following regarding the cursing of the fig tree,

christiancourier.com/articles/646-why-did-jesus-curse-the-fig-tree

I don’t believe this is a Catholic author, but I just wanted to use that as a starting off point.

So this leads me to ask,
  1. Is it possible for Jesus (or God) to sin?
For example, let’s pretend that when Jesus met Peter, he lied. Let’s pretend he said, “Hello, Peter. My name is Malachi. I was born sixty five years ago. I am a map maker.”

Since that is not true and Jesus knows it is not true, it is a lie. If Jesus had done that, would it have been a sin?

However, the author seems to imply something about “ownership”, so let me try a different example. I know this sounds blasphemous, I apologize, I’m just using the scenario to try to understand the concept. So if Jesus had broken into someone’s home in the middle of the night and strangled an innocent newborn to death… would that be a sin?
  1. If Jesus (and God) cannot sin, even when doing something that would be sinful for a man to do, then what do we mean when we say that God is “good”? In other words, if God can do something evil without it being called evil, why would we call him “good”?
Jesus was FULLY human so of course he “could” have sinned he just never did. He lived his entire life in union with the will of his father. Its irrelevant to ask if he had lied would it have been a sin because he never did. He freely always did the father’s will and not his own.

In order for Jesus to be the “perfect” sacrifice he had to be free of sin and voluntarily surrender himself. Sin is a willful act in opposition to the will of God. Jesus had to freely and with full capacity to accept or deny death on the cross be crucified. The agony in the garden is our view of the struggle Jesus experienced in deciding to turn away from death (a willful act in opposition to God’s will) or accpet the will of God. Make no mistake he HAD to be fully free and capable of saying “No” to be that perfect unblemished sacrifice
 
Jesus was FULLY human so of course he “could” have sinned he just never did. He lived his entire life in union with the will of his father. Its irrelevant to ask if he had lied would it have been a sin because he never did. He freely always did the father’s will and not his own.

In order for Jesus to be the “perfect” sacrifice he had to be free of sin and voluntarily surrender himself. Sin is a willful act in opposition to the will of God. Jesus had to freely and with full capacity to accept or deny death on the cross be crucified. The agony in the garden is our view of the struggle Jesus experienced in deciding to turn away from death (a willful act in opposition to God’s will) or accpet the will of God. Make no mistake he HAD to be fully free and capable of saying “No” to be that perfect unblemished sacrifice
Yet, He was also fully God, whose nature is all good. You sure about that?
 
Well, but if Jesus is God, then Jesus did kill many people… because God killed many people. So I guess I could have skipped that question.

But anyway, that’s where it gets confusing. How can God kill people and yet be “good”? The word seems to lose it’s meaning at that point. It would be like if I said, “Viki is good, no matter what he/she does.” What does “good” mean in that sentence?
God has dominion over life and death, it is wrong for us to kill because it is His dominion not ours,
saying that it’s not good for God to take a life is like saying death is bad, but death is only going from this life to the next, and for those who go to heaven, it is a very good thing,
this life is by no means our home, we belong with God in heaven, and God longs to be with us, and is it so bad when He calls a soul home to Him?

all God does is always with our best interest at heart, He does not deal with us the way we would want or desire, because He understands love perfectly, and we do not, He understands perfectly how we can reach salvation and what we need in order to overcome ourselves and to love God and our neighbor, but we do not understand those things perfectly and certainly not without proper religious education.
if we want to understand those things, we must first pray, and secondly, seek the answers from trustworthy Catholic sources, such as these -
z13.invisionfree.com/DominamStellaMaris/index.php?showtopic=55
audiosancto.org/
keepthefaith.org/
fultonsheen.com/Fulton-Sheen-MP3.cfm
pamphlets.org.au/
tanbooks.com/index.php
catholic-books.blogspot.com/

but as for the original question, no Jesus could not have sinned, because Jesus is also fully God, and sin is a lack of God, and God cannot commit a lack of Himself,
but could God will in Himself to do what would be a sin for us to do? no. because God is goodness itself, He does not lack what we lack which is the cause of sin in the first place, we sin because we lack God in us, we sin by choosing ourselves or the world over God,
sin is simply the other choice, it is one of the proofs of our free will, if there were no sin then we would only be able to choose God, and then we would have no choice, no free will,

you’re basically asking if God did something such as lie or steal or whatever else, would it be a sin for Him? well…honestly i can’t say i know for sure, i am inclined to say no, because God cannot defy Himself, but God also cannot and would not do those things, so it is really altogether irrelevant.
i’m sure you have good reason to ask this question, but i am curious what that may be?

well anyways, i hope this helps, take care 🙂
 
I don’t believe this is a Catholic author, but I just wanted to use that as a starting off point.

So this leads me to ask,
  1. Is it possible for Jesus (or God) to sin?
  2. If Jesus (and God) cannot sin, even when doing something that would be sinful for a man to do, then what do we mean when we say that God is “good”? In other words, if God can do something evil without it being called evil, why would we call him “good”?
  1. Yes absolutely…remember we are talking about God here. God who was not a man, came down as both Man and God in the form of Jesus. God can do everything and anything, including sinning. The only difference is, God does not sin. Jesus never sinned…He was tempted, but never sinned…otherwise Jesus would be nothing more than a great prophet.
 
I recently read the following regarding the cursing of the fig tree,

christiancourier.com/articles/646-why-did-jesus-curse-the-fig-tree

I don’t believe this is a Catholic author, but I just wanted to use that as a starting off point.

So this leads me to ask,
  1. Is it possible for Jesus (or God) to sin?
For example, let’s pretend that when Jesus met Peter, he lied. Let’s pretend he said, “Hello, Peter. My name is Malachi. I was born sixty five years ago. I am a map maker.”

Since that is not true and Jesus knows it is not true, it is a lie. If Jesus had done that, would it have been a sin?

However, the author seems to imply something about “ownership”, so let me try a different example. I know this sounds blasphemous, I apologize, I’m just using the scenario to try to understand the concept. So if Jesus had broken into someone’s home in the middle of the night and strangled an innocent newborn to death… would that be a sin?
  1. If Jesus (and God) cannot sin, even when doing something that would be sinful for a man to do, then what do we mean when we say that God is “good”? In other words, if God can do something evil without it being called evil, why would we call him “good”?
CCC 475 and 2824 tell us that Jesus’ human will completely submits to the Divine Will of the Father. This tells us that he does not sin, but as to whether or not he could sin, I would have to say no, and that is because of the nature of God. God is perfect, and sin is an imperfection. For instance, true love is ordered but lust is disordered. God, who is love, which is ordered toward the good of the other, cannot be disordered toward abuse of the other. Love is also ordered toward the good of the self, and cannot be disordered toward self-abuse. It is not in the nature of God to sin because of this. Also, as has been said above, God, who is one, cannot be divided against himself, and therefore Jesus could not sin because then he would be set against the Father.

God cannot do evil because there is no evil in him.
 
CCC 475 and 2824 tell us that Jesus’ human will completely submits to the Divine Will of the Father. This tells us that he does not sin, but as to whether or not he could sin, I would have to say no, and that is because of the nature of God. God is perfect, and sin is an imperfection. For instance, true love is ordered but lust is disordered. God, who is love, which is ordered toward the good of the other, cannot be disordered toward abuse of the other. Love is also ordered toward the good of the self, and cannot be disordered toward self-abuse. It is not in the nature of God to sin because of this. Also, as has been said above, God, who is one, cannot be divided against himself, and therefore Jesus could not sin because then he would be set against the Father.

God cannot do evil because there is no evil in him.
Jesus possessed a human nature, but a perfect, non-fallen human nature. His human will, as you say, is perfectly united to that of the Father. I wonder why so many folks are trying to make Him into just another cool guy?
 
Or, in short, God could kill us all if He wanted in such a way that the action was moral, but since we know that He desires the best for us, we can be justified in believing that if in someway God did decide that it was time for someone to die then that would be, in the grand scheme of things (which includes the little scheme of things, just to be clear) the best possible time for that person to die. But again, this is not to say that in such case we would have God arbitrarily deciding to kill someone at a specific time and so that time becoming the best time for the person to die, but that God’s Godness, or good’s goodness (which is pretty much the same thing), make that the best time for the person to die and furthermore for it to be best that God directly cause it to occur, and so God’s will that God directly cause the death, and so God’s action of killing. Furthermore, all three of those things (best time, God’s will, God’s action) happen at the same time (casually, that is - time does not apply) in the same way because all three are more or less the same thing.

)
I like your explanation, Iron Donkey. Pretty good for 3 AM thinking. Only one thing I might disagree with: the part above about God choosing the best time for us to die.
Since we have free will, my neighbor can decide to kill me.(very unlikely). That might not be God’s perfect will, but He allows us to commit such sins. BUT, I think that if such should happen, He could turn it into a good by whatever means He chose. He might not be able to, say if my family became very bitter and angry and turned away from God. But if human hearts chose to respond in a holy way, He could use my death for His ends, perhaps to bring people closer to Him.
He is good at turning defeat into victory, exactly what He did on Calvary. I think He does it often. He is a very creative artist, using the raw materials of human hearts and minds, and circumstances . . .Shakespeare is a pale imitation of Him.
 
Jesus possessed a human nature, but a perfect, non-fallen human nature. His human will, as you say, is perfectly united to that of the Father. I wonder why so many folks are trying to make Him into just another cool guy?
While I think some people genuinely want Jesus to be palatable and more appealing to everyone, there are some who just want to tear him down. If Jesus is just another cool guy, or just a guru with secret knowledge, or whatever, then the majesty and wonder disappear, and reverence for him ends. Why would anyone revere him if he was just another guy, right? Why would anyone actually worship just another guy? Why would they choose to believe that the Way of Jesus is the one and only true path and all others are not equal to it? Why would they trust in anything he said or believe in the salvation he offers us? The Enemy must laugh extra hard when someone falls into that trap because they close themselves off from salvation.

I think we walk a dangerous path if we begin to think along the lines of some of the supposition in this thread. Better to maintain that reverence and meditate upon what we actually know of God thanks to his revelation.

†God Bless!
 
I like your explanation, Iron Donkey. Pretty good for 3 AM thinking. Only one thing I might disagree with: the part above about God choosing the best time for us to die.
Since we have free will, my neighbor can decide to kill me.(very unlikely). That might not be God’s perfect will, but He allows us to commit such sins. BUT, I think that if such should happen, He could turn it into a good by whatever means He chose. He might not be able to, say if my family became very bitter and angry and turned away from God. But if human hearts chose to respond in a holy way, He could use my death for His ends, perhaps to bring people closer to Him.
He is good at turning defeat into victory, exactly what He did on Calvary. I think He does it often. He is a very creative artist, using the raw materials of human hearts and minds, and circumstances . . .Shakespeare is a pale imitation of Him.
True, what I meant was that if God decided directly to kill us at any give time, then it would be because the absolute best thing is that we die at that time and that we die by God’s direct action. If our neighbor murders us then God allows it to happen because it is the absolute best thing that He allow it to occur (as opposed to remove neighbor’s free will or directly preventing it by some other means), but not necessarily that it is the absolute best thing that our neighbor could have decided to do or the absolute best thing that could have happened if we take our neighbor’s choice as variable.

However, I would still argue that God does cause the absolute best thing to happen considering the poor choices we can make, and that taking these poor choices into consideration instead of simply overriding them is part of the absolute best thing. Not so much that this is the best of all possible worlds, but that this is the best way to have made the world, and that world operates in the best way that it could.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top