Could Jesus make a mistake? (A new thread)

[JDaniel]

Yesterday, I arrived early for Mass. While standing in the narthex about 30 minutes before Mass time, I was conversing with two people: one a Deacon and the other, a friend of mine who is just finishing up his 5-year study to become a Deacon. I, trouble-maker that I am, brought up this question. To my surprise, the answers I got were anything but settling! My friend, the not-yet-deacon told me that, during his studies, he read many writings, some Gnostic, some not, about the life of our young Jesus Christ. There are a couple of supposedly corroborated stories that Jesus, when teased by other children, would kill them. His Mom, the Holy Mother, would scold Him, and Jesus would bring the other kids back to life. Of course, these stories are excluded from our accepted compendium of writings.

About that time, the young man who is a Deacon, walked up and entered into the conversation, since he wanted to meet us. He said that he had read of times when Jesus would pick up clay statues of pigeons and breathe life into them. I could see that these stories were expected not to be taken too seriously. But, I could also see that that was like a judge telling a jury to disregard an incriminating prior statement from a witness. They were unable to disregard those stories - despite the non-acceptance of such writings by the Church.

Now, one could simply dismiss them, as we are wont to do. But, there are many such writings, not just a few. And these men, who I have no reason to suspect of dishonesty or chicanery, were very forthright. Still, I/we have no idea whether the writings are true. Also, the re-telling of these stories is second-hand. I did not first-hand see the documents.

How would knowledge like this affect your Faith? I’ll tell you how it affects mine, but you first!

God bless,
jd

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yesterday, I arrived early for Mass. While standing in the narthex about 30 minutes before Mass time, I was conversing with two people: one a Deacon and the other, a friend of mine who is just finishing up his 5-year study to become a Deacon. I, trouble-maker that I am, brought up this question. To my surprise, the answers I got were anything but settling! My friend, the not-yet-deacon told me that, during his studies, he read many writings, some Gnostic, some not, about the life of our young Jesus Christ.** There are a couple of supposedly corroborated stories that Jesus, when teased by other children, would kill them. His Mom, the Holy Mother, would scold Him, and Jesus would bring the other kids back to life.** Of course, these stories are excluded from our accepted compendium of writings.

About that time, the young man who is a Deacon, walked up and entered into the conversation, since he wanted to meet us. He said that he had read of times when Jesus would pick up clay statues of pigeons and breathe life into them. I could see that these stories were expected not to be taken too seriously. But, I could also see that that was like a judge telling a jury to disregard an incriminating prior statement from a witness. They were unable to disregard those stories - despite the non-acceptance of such writings by the Church.

Now, one could simply dismiss them, as we are wont to do. But, there are many such writings, not just a few. And these men, who I have no reason to suspect of dishonesty or chicanery, were very forthright. Still, I/we have no idea whether the writings are true. Also, the re-telling of these stories is second-hand. I did not first-hand see the documents.

How would knowledge like this affect your Faith? I’ll tell you how it affects mine, but you first!

God bless,
jd

Ridiculous! If I had heard anyone state such an absurd statement aloud, well, it would be all I could do not to slap him very hard, immediately! That is akin to blasphemy! Suggesting that Jesus would cause someone to DIE because he had been teased! Oh my gosh. That’s simply AWFUL. There are no such documents to see!

Your deacon is reading Gnostic “gospels?” Well, there’s your problem!!!

:banghead:

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yesterday, I arrived early for Mass. While standing in the narthex about 30 minutes before Mass time, I was conversing with two people: one a Deacon and the other, a friend of mine who is just finishing up his 5-year study to become a Deacon. I, trouble-maker that I am, brought up this question. To my surprise, the answers I got were anything but settling! My friend, the not-yet-deacon told me that, during his studies, he read many writings, some Gnostic, some not, about the life of our young Jesus Christ. There are a couple of supposedly corroborated stories that Jesus, when teased by other children, would kill them. His Mom, the Holy Mother, would scold Him, and Jesus would bring the other kids back to life. Of course, these stories are excluded from our accepted compendium of writings.

About that time, the young man who is a Deacon, walked up and entered into the conversation, since he wanted to meet us. He said that he had read of times when Jesus would pick up clay statues of pigeons and breathe life into them. I could see that these stories were expected not to be taken too seriously. But, I could also see that that was like a judge telling a jury to disregard an incriminating prior statement from a witness. They were unable to disregard those stories - despite the non-acceptance of such writings by the Church.

Now, one could simply dismiss them, as we are wont to do. But, there are many such writings, not just a few. And these men, who I have no reason to suspect of dishonesty or chicanery, were very forthright. Still, I/we have no idea whether the writings are true. Also, the re-telling of these stories is second-hand. I did not first-hand see the documents.

How would knowledge like this affect your Faith? I’ll tell you how it affects mine, but you first!

God bless,
jd

It doesn’t affect mine at all. I am not a fan of the Jesus Seminar crowd (not that I am dismissing them personally, or SOME of the research they have done, but the majority of the conclusions that they draw are not really all that logical.)

Jesus has two natures --human and divine.

The human nature did not ‘contravene’ the divine one at any time. The idea that a ‘human’ Jesus would somehow be ‘unaware’ of His divinity, especially as a young child (and we’re talking about an era when the average life span was much shorter and children were not ‘babied’ and were expected to ‘behave as adults’ much earlier than today), and thus 'acted like not just A human, but like a NAUGHTY human. . .are simply unbelievable.

I could certainly understand say a 2 year old Jesus throwing a toy over and over, because that is how 2 year olds learn concepts such as being ‘separate’ from a parent, and also ‘cause and effect’, etc. But the idea that a 2 year old Jesus would not just throw a toy, but would throw it in a TEMPER and maim or kill another child is simply grotesque.

IOW, the proponents of such theories are out, consciously or not, to turn Jesus into SIMPLY a ‘good man’. IF He is given god-like attributes from this crowd at ALL, it is either explained away as His ‘encouraging’ people to share (not actually miraculously creating food on His own), or He is permitted to ‘take a god-like body’ provided He throws the human one away, or is simply ‘given’ that body as part of the Passover plot to take over the world. . .

I would pray for that deacon. I hope that as he continues exploring the faith he comes to realize that these theories are like ‘Dead Sea fruit’. . .they might look appetizing at first but after away they make one ill.

JMO.

 

[sllhouette]

Oh wow… your deacon is reading Gnostic texts… ok…

The Church does not just simply dismiss these writings, it outright calls them hearsay. They were not written by Christians. Gnostic texts have no more Truth in them than the book of Mormon… That is to say, we cannot trust the authority writing the text therefore we cannot trust the text itself.

 

[coachkfan1]

Ridiculous! If I had heard anyone state such an absurd statement aloud, well, it would be all I could do not to slap him very hard, immediately! That is akin to blasphemy! Suggesting that Jesus would cause someone to DIE because he had been teased! Oh my gosh. That’s simply AWFUL. There are no such documents to see!

Your deacon is reading Gnostic “gospels?” Well, there’s your problem!!!

:banghead:

I am sorry to say that such stories of Jesus’ childhood do exist. But that is just what they are- stories that were made up to try and fill in the missing details of what was probably an ordinary Jewish peasant family life. These stories, while very old, were never seriously considered for canonization, therefore the Holy Spirit prevented them from becoming part of Sacred Scripture. I would not give them any creedance and I certainly wouldn’t let it get me upset. People are still “creating” stories about Jesus today, i.e. The DaVinci Code. Of course they go against our beliefs, but please don’t let it shake your faith. And no, Jesus never made a mistake.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I am sorry to say that such stories of Jesus’ childhood do exist. But that is just what they are- stories that were made up to try and fill in the missing details of what was probably an ordinary Jewish peasant family life. These stories, while very old, were never seriously considered for canonization, therefore the Holy Spirit prevented them from becoming part of Sacred Scripture. I would not give them any creedance and I certainly wouldn’t let it get me upset. People are still “creating” stories about Jesus today, i.e. The DaVinci Code. Of course they go against our beliefs, but please don’t let it shake your faith. And no, Jesus never made a mistake.

Oh it won’t shake my faith in any way, and I am only sorry that ANY Catholic would waste his or her time reading such garbage. Rather surprised that a Deacon candidate would spend one minute of time with the Gnostic writings (not going to honor them with the title “gospel”). Bad catechesis and bad formation of conscience = not a great start to a deaconate…

 

[JDaniel]

Let me just ask some of you to re-read what I wrote. Some of you are “reacting” without thinking. A few corrections: (1) I intimated that, of the writings, “some were Gnostic and some were not,” (2) there were two fellows, one a Deacon and the other almost a Deacon, (3) their faiths were not shaken in the least, (4) I am not so sure that they might have been allowed to read some of the correlative literature of the time, (5) I’m not sure how a Child who could terminate and restore life would be regarded as just part “of another Jewish family.”

I can fully appreciate the reactions that some of you philosophers had to this, but… Nope, not yet!

God bless,
jd

 

[po18guy]

“If you are Son of God, command that these stones be made into bread”

The evil one hates all that is good and holy.

Such nonsense stories affect my faith no more than does the existence of the devil. Actually, they only strengthen it, as through them, the evil one’s influence is made manifest.

 

[SonCatcher]

Let me just ask some of you to re-read what I wrote. Some of you are “reacting” without thinking. A few corrections: (1) I intimated that, of the writings, “some were Gnostic and some were not,” (2) there were two fellows, one a Deacon and the other almost a Deacon, (3) their faiths were not shaken in the least, (4) I am not so sure that they might have been allowed to read some of the correlative literature of the time, (5) I’m not sure how a Child who could terminate and restore life would be regarded as just part “of another Jewish family.”

I can fully appreciate the reactions that some of you philosophers had to this, but… Nope, not yet!

God bless,
jd

It is possible they were exposed to such writings so they could be aware of the nonsense that is out there. As ordained clergy, deacons probably are confronted periodically with such texts.

 

[Neofight]

Yesterday, I arrived early for Mass. While standing in the narthex about 30 minutes before Mass time, I was conversing with two people: one a Deacon and the other, a friend of mine who is just finishing up his 5-year study to become a Deacon. I, trouble-maker that I am, brought up this question. To my surprise, the answers I got were anything but settling! My friend, the not-yet-deacon told me that, during his studies, he read many writings, some Gnostic, some not, about the life of our young Jesus Christ. There are a couple of supposedly corroborated stories that Jesus, when teased by other children, would kill them. His Mom, the Holy Mother, would scold Him, and Jesus would bring the other kids back to life. Of course, these stories are excluded from our accepted compendium of writings.

About that time, the young man who is a Deacon, walked up and entered into the conversation, since he wanted to meet us. He said that he had read of times when Jesus would pick up clay statues of pigeons and breathe life into them. I could see that these stories were expected not to be taken too seriously. But, I could also see that that was like a judge telling a jury to disregard an incriminating prior statement from a witness. They were unable to disregard those stories - despite the non-acceptance of such writings by the Church.

Now, one could simply dismiss them, as we are wont to do. But, there are many such writings, not just a few. And these men, who I have no reason to suspect of dishonesty or chicanery, were very forthright. Still, I/we have no idea whether the writings are true. Also, the re-telling of these stories is second-hand. I did not first-hand see the documents.

How would knowledge like this affect your Faith? I’ll tell you how it affects mine, but you first!

God bless,
jd

Nice posting, giving cause for thought.

I’m fascinated by the responses, especially the most outraged. Faith and doubt are funny things. Doubt is not a sign of weak faith, but a sign of a healthy faith.

However, in my experience, those outraged by statements that are contrary to their spirtual paradigm, are the ones with frail faith.

Pax

 

[SaintPatrick333]

Let’s not get too ahead of ourselves. We don’t truly know the story with the Deacon. It’s quite possible even the OP mistook things out of context. My Godfather (who is also my Parish Deacon) knows the gnostic gospels and he is a highly devout and pious man. He gives no credence to the gnostic gospels of course, but all I wanna say is that just because someone reads writings that are contrary to the faith and comments about them, does not necessarily mean they believe or support them. Maybe the Deacon and Deacon-to-be were speaking generally of the belief system that accompanies the gnostic writings? Sure it’s possible the Deacon was simply poorly catechized or kind of dabbling into personal interpretation with this situation but since we don’t know the full story, we shouldn’t really pass judgement and say how the Deacon’s off to a bad start or other uncharitable things.

 

[JDaniel]

Nice posting, giving cause for thought.

I’m fascinated by the responses, especially the most outraged. Faith and doubt are funny things. Doubt is not a sign of weak faith, but a sign of a healthy faith.

However, in my experience, those outraged by statements that are contrary to their spiritual paradigm, are the ones with frail faith.

Pax

Neo:

I agree; thanks for the compliment.

God bless,
jd

 

[po18guy]

Doubt is not a sign of weak faith, but a sign of a healthy faith.

Our Lord seems to disagree:

Matthew 14:31
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
31 And immediately Jesus stretching forth his hand took hold of him, and said to him: O thou of little faith, why didst thou doubt?

Was it Peter’s “healthy faith” that allowed him to sink in the water? Did Jesus commend Peter for having faith, or rebuke him for his doubt?

Genesis 3:4-5. Doubt is the weapon of the evil one.

 

[Neofight]

Our Lord seems to disagree:

Matthew 14:31
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
31 And immediately Jesus stretching forth his hand took hold of him, and said to him: O thou of little faith, why didst thou doubt?

Was it Peter’s “healthy faith” that allowed him to sink in the water? Did Jesus commend Peter for having faith, or rebuke him for his doubt?

Genesis 3:4-5. Doubt is the weapon of the evil one.

Doubt is not the sin, dispair is. Dispair is when one gives into doubt. Peter and Thomas both doubted, but their doubt gave cause for reexamination and strengthening of their faith.

Pax

 

[po18guy]

Doubt is not the sin, dispair is. Dispair is when one gives into doubt. Peter and Thomas both doubted, but their doubt gave cause for reexamination and strengthening of their faith.

Pax

Doubt is a sin against faith. From the catechism:

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

 

[shoe]

There are a couple of supposedly corroborated stories that Jesus, when teased by other children, would kill them. His Mom, the Holy Mother, would scold Him, and Jesus would bring the other kids back to life.

How would knowledge like this affect your Faith? I’ll tell you how it affects mine, but you first!

That someone may say in a discussion, “that Jesus, when teased by other children, would kill them. His Mom, the Holy Mother, would scold Him, and Jesus would bring the other kids back to life” would not affect my faith at all; since killing bullies on the spot (even for a limited time) would violate Jesus’ profound nature of Holy Love, which is a thing that simply cannot happen. Jesus says in the Book of Luke 10:27: “He replied, ‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.’” And in the Book of Matthew 5:44 Jesus says, “But I say this to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

 

[JDaniel]

That someone may say in a discussion, “that Jesus, when teased by other children, would kill them. His Mom, the Holy Mother, would scold Him, and Jesus would bring the other kids back to life” would not affect my faith at all; since killing bullies on the spot (even for a limited time) would violate Jesus’ profound nature of Holy Love, which is a thing that simply cannot happen. Jesus says in the Book of Luke 10:27: “He replied, ‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.’” And in the Book of Matthew 5:44 Jesus says, “But I say this to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

Shoe:

But even as a child? Not a man yet, a child, a time period about which our Scripture tells us little. Or, did not His human knowledge literally “grow” over time? Unlike His Beatific and infused knowledges. What do you think, could Jesus - even at 2 years of age - make a mistake?

God bless,
jd

 

[po18guy]

How can Jesus be our perfect example if He made simple, avoidable mistakes? How could He makes if Peter said to Him, “You know all things”? If He made simple mistakes, that allows that He could have made more complex ones as well. He who is faithful in small things will be faithful in large things. He came and did and taught only what the Father instructed Him to do. If Jesus made a mistake, this traces directly to God.

Nonsense, is what it is.

 

[shoe]

Shoe:

But even as a child? Not a man yet, a child, a time period about which our Scripture tells us little. Or, did not His human knowledge literally “grow” over time? Unlike His Beatific and infused knowledges. What do you think, could Jesus - even at 2 years of age - make a mistake?

God bless,
jd

But Jesus from eternity past always has been God the Son: He didn’t turn into God at a certain age. And we read in Luke 2:40 that as a child Jesus - God the Son “…grew, and waxed strong, full of wisdom; and the grace of God was in him.” To me, the temporarily killing of bullies does not indicate either God’s wisdom or His grace. We also know that during the Feast of the Passover when Mother Mary and Joseph finely found the 12-year old Jesus, they did not find Him playing with other 12-year-old children, or even like other 12-year-old children for that matter; rather, they found Jesus deeply engaged in deep spiritual discussions with the learned leaders of the Temple, actually astonishing them with His great wisdom and understanding. I personally believe that Jesus never made mistakes at any age, basically because I don’t see how any year in the life of Jesus could logically affect His perfect divinity and His perfect humanity in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Neofight]

Doubt is a sin against faith. From the catechism:

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

Legalism can be dangerous…ask the Pharisees…In this thread the doubt discussed seemed to be more along the lines of the precise definition of involuntary doubt 2088 discusses. Granted, “If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spirtual blindness,” but in your haste to condemn the deacon and candidate, you seem to assume their doubt WILL BE (not IF) cultivate.

I prefer to give others the benefit of the doubt, and let God sort it out.