Could Mary have sinned?

[graceandglory]

the Bible tells us “all” have sinned

True.

and that includes Mary and everyone else.

your addition, AND your tradition.

 

[graceandglory]

Do you think that Mary could have sinned?

If God is omnipotent, don’t you think it’s possible that He could have wanted to create a clean vessel for Himself? For His own Son? For the Word of God made flesh?

I ask you, isn’t God, Who has created all things, powerful enough, and wise enough to create a person who was without sin? (Just like He did with Adam and Eve.) To be set apart and used to bring forth God Himself???

God who can do ALL things.

Or is that something He can’t do?

 

[NotWorthy]

Then I take it that’s a No!.. Not that I expected anything else. If you can’t do it, you just can’t do it. But that seems to be the norm here. Just wistful hope and thinking.

Have you read any of the previous pages on this thread? If you choose not to read them, then so be it, but don’t go chastising anyone more not posting it for the umpteenth time, please.

The teachings on Mary’s sinlessness are every bit as clear as the teachings on the Trinity, and no more explicit.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Read through many of the #668 posts before yours.
Also, IF you are sincerely interested in Catholic teachings on Mary, do read this book:

Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God by Scott Hahn
amazon.com/Hail-Holy-Queen-Mother-Word/dp/0385501692/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202917024&sr=8-1

Scott Hahn will definitely be more scholarly than we can be in the forums. He has done the research and has all the scriptural references to back up the Church’s claims. He is EXTREMELY faithful to Scripture. Although he can be on the punny side.

Thanks for the reference but I have read several of Scott Hahn’s books and I find him entertaining but short on facts, and his analogical and anecdotal style is designed simply to entertain and his work is not authentic. One scholar described his work thus:

Certain dogmas of the Church, such as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, can be great obstacles for those who are converting to the Catholic faith from another Christian denomination. For Protestants who believe that the Bible is the only authority, neither of these assertions can be proven because they are not found in Scripture. Hahn admits that even after his conversion, proving the Assumption to his Protestant friends was no easy task. Yet here he shows in an extremely simple manner the logic of these dogmas

Perhaps his manner is a little too simple. As the early church fathers taught, if it can’t be supported by Scripture then it must be considered false and Hahn falls very short.

 

[Tomster]

**Absolutely…the Bible tells us “all” have sinned and that includes Mary and everyone else. **

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Now it’s pretty hard to misinterpret these verses. We are told that everyone needs salvation. Jesus is the only one perfect, without sin and unblemished. To believe otherwise is to not believe the Bible…

Your concept of the transmission of original sin is at best weak, at worst, non-existant. Do you think that Mary could have transmitted original sin to Jesus, her only begotten Son?

 

[NotWorthy]

**Absolutely…the Bible tells us “all” have sinned and that includes Mary and everyone else. **

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Now it’s pretty hard to misinterpret these verses. We are told that everyone needs salvation. Jesus is the only one perfect, without sin and unblemished. To believe otherwise is to not believe the Bible…

Mary needed Salvation just as all of us do. Jesus did save Mary, immediately from Conception (Hey, I wonder if that’s why it’s called the Immaculate Conception!!!) and kept her without sin and unblemished.

To make dogmatic statements on others belief in the Bible makes one as arrogant as they accuse the Catholic Church of being. That’s rather hypoctritical…

 

[Old_Scholar]

If God is omnipotent, don’t you think it’s possible that He could have wanted to create a clean vessel for Himself? For His own Son? For the Word of God made flesh?

I ask you, isn’t God, Who has created all things, powerful enough, and wise enough to create a person who was without sin? (Just like He did with Adam and Eve.) To be set apart and used to bring forth God Himself???

God who can do ALL things.

Or is that something He can’t do?

**Of course God could have done all those things but in stead He chose a small, young virgin who was betrothed to be married to use as a vessel for our Lord. Had He wanted her to be completely pure and immaculate, He would have told us so. Instead He used a common person, just like the sinners Jesus came to save. He could have had her taken to Bethelhem in a chariot or carried by servants, dressed as a Queen but that was not God’s plan. He wanted a simple girl, one of the common people for this purpose. To think otherwise is missing the whole point of His birth…

It’s great to believe all those things you believe but it is merely speculation and without fact or reason. It just sounds nice. Wouldn’t it be better to know the truth? Christ says the truth will set you free…**

 

[guanophore]

**Absolutely…the Bible tells us “all” have sinned and that includes Mary and everyone else. **

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Now it’s pretty hard to misinterpret these verses. We are told that everyone needs salvation. Jesus is the only one perfect, without sin and unblemished. To believe otherwise is to not believe the Bible…

I think you are taking these verses out of context. If one looks at the passage, it is clear that Paul is trying to show that unbelieving Jews are not having any advantage over unbelieving Gentiles. He is quoting the Psalm. If you look back where he indicates “it is written” then it is clear that the Psalm refers to “the fool (who ) has said in his heart there is no God”. These verses do not refer to believers, or the those who are righteous by faith.

If you take them out of context (as you have done) then it is necessary to find a way to dispatch all the other passages that indicate there are righteous people. Not the least of the problems is that Jesus Himself says that he has not come to call the righteous. If they don’t exist, why does he make reference to them? Perhaps this should go on another thread?

However, I agree with you that Mary could have sinned. She was created with free will, just like Eve. She made different choices than Eve, and had the opposite outcome.

 

[guanophore]

**Of course God could have done all those things but in stead He chose a small, young virgin who was betrothed to be married to use as a vessel for our Lord. Had He wanted her to be completely pure and immaculate, He would have told us so. Instead He used a common person, just like the sinners Jesus came to save. He could have had her taken to Bethelhem in a chariot or carried by servants, dressed as a Queen but that was not God’s plan. He wanted a simple girl, one of the common people for this purpose. To think otherwise is missing the whole point of His birth…
**

All that you have said here is perfectly consistent with Catholic Teaching.

 

[Old_Scholar]

I think you are taking these verses out of context. If one looks at the passage, it is clear that Paul is trying to show that unbelieving Jews are not having any advantage over unbelieving Gentiles. He is quoting the Psalm. If you look back where he indicates “it is written” then it is clear that the Psalm refers to “the fool (who ) has said in his heart there is no God”. These verses do not refer to believers, or the those who are righteous by faith.

If you take them out of context (as you have done) then it is necessary to find a way to dispatch all the other passages that indicate there are righteous people. Not the least of the problems is that Jesus Himself says that he has not come to call the righteous. If they don’t exist, why does he make reference to them? Perhaps this should go on another thread?

However, I agree with you that Mary could have sinned. She was created with free will, just like Eve. She made different choices than Eve, and had the opposite outcome.

**I don’t believe this was taken out of context but instead it applies to all.

Paul is trying to show that all mankind is under the guilt of sin. It is a burden because of the government and dominion of sin. Man is enslaved to it and will work wickedness. The Old Testament often describes the corrupt and depraved state of all men until grace restrains them or changes them. He is describing multitudes who call themselves Christians. They didn’t fear God and where there is no fear of God, no good works can be found.

When Paul says “all have sinned” he means that until they receive Grace and become righteous then they are doomed. After they receive Grace and become righteous, they have free will and whether they sin or not is up to them but it is highly unlikely that man can live without sin. It is in his nature.

After all, Christ came to save sinners, not the righteous.

As far as Mary not sinning after the birth of Jesus, I feel certain she was filled with grace and sinned no more than anyone else in her position. But to say she lived the rest of her life without sin would be a speculation as we have no indication that anyone but Christ was able to do that. Even evil thoughts were considered sin. In the same situation, it is inconceivable that Mary had not sinned when selected to bear our Lord. How many young girls live to be her age without sinning? Had this been true, the Scriptures would have told us. To believe such a thing is putting a great deal of faith in people and not paying attention to Scripture when it says otherwise.**

 

[Lampo]

The Catholic perception of God’s creation and Christ’s redemptive act has formed us into a community of believers who understand God in a unique way. This understanding is what we call the sacramental principle. It states that God is present in the world, disclosing God’s very Self in and through creation.

Those who criticize us Catholics for our devotion to Mary and the saints apparently cannot accept the sacramental principle. They see Mary and the saints as obstacles that get between us and Jesus. Their questions, “Why pray to Mary? Why not go directly to Jesus?” imply that people *hinder *our efforts to follow Christ. We who are Catholic believe instead that the goodness in people directs us to God, the Source of all good.

The Bible is God’s inspired Word and one of God’s greatest gifts to humanity. But we should not put the Bible before Christ’s own Body, The Church, which under God’s inspiration produced the Bible. Again, what is the pillar and bullwark of truth? There is no passage in the Bible which says that the Bible is the only source of divine revelation. Anyone who asserts that the Bible is the only source of revelation is claiming something that is not in the Bible.

(Christ’s Mother & Ours, Fr. Oscar Lukefahr, C.M.)

 

[Old_Scholar]

All that you have said here is perfectly consistent with Catholic Teaching.

Are you saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that there was an immaculate conception? That Mary remained a virgin while Jesus exited her womb in an unnatural manner and that Mary remained sinless for her entire life?

 

[NotWorthy]

**When Paul says “all have sinned” he means that until they receive Grace and become righteous then they are doomed. After they receive Grace and become righteous, they have free will and whether they sin or not is up to them but it is highly unlikely that man can live without sin. It is in his nature.**Two points:

Your first part is right. Until they receive Grace they are doomed. Mary, Kecharitome, received this Grace at her conception.

Your second part is called Concupiscence. It comes with Original Sin. Since Mary was prevented from having Original Sin, it’s not in her nature. She could have, but it’s not naturual.

 

[graceandglory]

For Protestants who believe that the Bible is the only authority, **neither of these assertions can be proven because they are not found in Scripture. **
You rely on proof and scientific evidence. That is not faith.
***“Faith is …the evidence of things not seen.” ***
Hebrews 11:1
Just because something is not in the Bible specifically, doesn’t mean it’s not true.

 

[NotWorthy]

Are you saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that there was an immaculate conception? That Mary remained a virgin while Jesus exited her womb in an unnatural manner and that Mary remained sinless for her entire life?

No, he is agreeing with you when you said, “If God wanted her to remain sinless, He would have told us so…”.

God did tell us so.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Lampo

Anyone who asserts that the Bible is the only source of revelation** is claiming something that is not in the Bible**.

Can you imagine someone claimging something that is not in the
Bible? Would you do that?

 

[Old_Scholar]

No, he is agreeing with you when you said, “If God wanted her to remain sinless, He would have told us so…”.

God did tell us so.

Then I am sure it would be a simple matter for you to quote the Scripture where God said so???

 

[guanophore]

** I don’t believe this was taken out of context but instead it applies to all.

Paul is trying to show that all mankind is under the guilt of sin. **

How do you get that from this passage? You can read several times that he refers “to the Jew, and also to the Greek”. He is talking about unbelievers.

** It is a burden because of the government and dominion of sin. Man is enslaved to it and will work wickedness. The Old Testament often describes the corrupt and depraved state of all men until grace restrains them or changes them. He is describing multitudes who call themselves Christians. They didn’t fear God and where there is no fear of God, no good works can be found.**

There is a difference between original sin and personal sin. You can read about these who are made righteous by faith in Heb. ch. 11. They are not among those who “say in their heart, there is no God”. These are the righteous that Jesus refers to, who have already come to repentance.

** When Paul says “all have sinned” he means that until they receive Grace and become righteous then they are doomed. After they receive Grace and become righteous, they have free will and whether they sin or not is up to them but it is highly unlikely that man can live without sin. It is in his nature.**

I have no arguement with this. My point is that some have already done this, and those that have are not included in the “all”. Mary is one.

**
After all, Christ came to save sinners, not the righteous.

As far as Mary not sinning after the birth of Jesus, I feel certain she was filled with grace and sinned no more than anyone else in her position. But to say she lived the rest of her life without sin would be a speculation as we have no indication that anyone but Christ was able to do that. Even evil thoughts were considered sin. In the same situation, it is inconceivable that Mary had not sinned when selected to bear our Lord. How many young girls live to be her age without sinning? Had this been true, the Scriptures would have told us. To believe such a thing is putting a great deal of faith in people and not paying attention to Scripture when it says otherwise.**

Well, we read it differently! And, since we are not limited to scripture, we have other testimony to this doctrine.

 

[graceandglory]

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Now it’s pretty hard to misinterpret these verses.

Nope. They’ve been misinterpreted for at least 500 years.
Look up all the scriptural references in your concordance for the word, “ALL.”

You are assuming that in every scriptural reference, the word “All” means “every single one, without exception.”
That’s not the case with other scriptures. Look a little further in the book of Romans, where Paul states that "All Israel will be saved." Romans 11:26.

You really think that is to be taken literally? You think that Paul meant, “every single person in Israel and of Jewish descent will definitely be saved without exception, whether they accept Jesus as Savior or not?” That doesn’t make sense when you compare it to the rest of the Bible. Paul used the word, “All” at least twice in the same letter to the Romans.

Isn’t it possible that Paul had the same meaning for both of them, and they are not what protestants think of when they read “All?”

 

[Lampo]

The dogma of the IC proclaims that what we receive throught baptism, Mary received at the first moment of her conception. With the help of God’s grace, she remained free of all personal sin as well.

The Bible does not use the words, “Immaculate Conception,” but it does show that Mary was uniquely blessed by God because she was the Mother of Jesus. Some modern Scripture scholars assert that the popular translation of Gabriel’s words to Mary in Luke 1:28, “Hail, full of grace,” is more accurate than recent renderings like “Greeting, favored one.” The Greek *kecharitomene *implies a plenitude of grace that is both singular and permanent. This understanding that Mary was “full of grace” led early Christians to realize that Mary had been conceived without sin.

As early as the fourth century, theologians began to teach that Mary had been kept free of all sin by God because she was to be the Mother of Jesus Christ. by the seventh century, there was a liturgical observance proclaiming Mary’s freedom from sin. However, there was much debate among theologians about how mMary could be free of original sin since the Bible teaches that salvation comes from Christ. Int he thirteenth century, the Franciscan theologian Duns Scotus taught that Mary was preserved from all sin by the foreseen merits of Christ. God is not limited by time, and so Mary could be preserved from original sin by Christ just as those who lived and died in Old Testament times were, in the final analysis, redeemed by him.

Jesus is truly God, and is uniquely holy by reason of his divinity. Mary is human, and is holy by the grace and merits of her son. Jesus is free of original sin because he is God. Mary was kept free of original sin by the grace of Jesus. She was conceived by her parents in the normal way, but from the moment of her conception she existed in a state of union with God. She was granted the dind of grace and holiness which would have belonged to all human beings had there been no original sin.

It is also Catholic dogma that Mary remained free from personal sin throughout her life (CCC 493). She was not immune to the problems of living in a world touched by sin. She had to cooperate with God’s grace, and she had to cope with evil, above all the unjust murder of her son on the cross. Mary was tempted as we are. But she did not sin. She dooperated with God’s grace, and in this she is a model for us. When we are tempted to think that sin cannot be defeated, Mary witnesses to the fact that the grace of Christ can conquer the powers of hell.

The doctrine of the IC is not found explicitly in the Bible, but it is consistent with Bible teaching. Matthew, Luke, and John, guided by the Holy Spirit, saw Mary as the first among believers and as one specially blessed by God. The Holy Spirit led these authors to develop a direction toward a better appreciation of Mary and of her role in God’s plan. The Church followed the lines of development set by the NT when it proclaimed the dogma of the IC. We can be confident, therefore, that the Church was guided by the same Holy Spirit who led the evangelists. We have every reason for believing that it is God’s will that Christ’s Mother be honored as Mary, conceived without sin.

(Christ’s Mother & Ours, Fr. Oscar Lukefahr, C.M.)