Could Mary have sinned?

[guanophore]

Pretty persuptuous of you to determine who I trust.

I trust Christ and His body the Church.

Note to all:

There is no separation between Christ and His Church, and no separation between the Church and the scripture. If it seems that they are not in agreement, then the individual is lacking in understanding.

And I trust God and His promises as revealed in His Word.

Jesus said Heaven and earth would pass away, but His words will not pass away. Jesus said it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the Hebrew equivalent of our grammar marks to fail from the Old Testament Law. All through the New Testament it is said such and such things had to be done so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. Jesus said it is those who hear His words and keep them that love Him.

Not only were God’s words divinely inspired, but they were divinely preserved.

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

You are making an assumption that all of this Holy Word is contained in scripture, but it is not. God revealed His Word orally to the Apostles, and they passed on this Sacred Tradition to others before a word of the NT was ever written. These passages apply to both the Sacred Writing,a nd the Sacred Tradition.

 

[Jzyehoshua]

Note to all:

There is no separation between Christ and His Church, and no separation between the Church and the scripture. If it seems that they are not in agreement, then the individual is lacking in understanding.

You are making an assumption that all of this Holy Word is contained in scripture, but it is not. God revealed His Word orally to the Apostles, and they passed on this Sacred Tradition to others before a word of the NT was ever written. These passages apply to both the Sacred Writing,a nd the Sacred Tradition.

Yeah, I always thought it odd that the Catholic Church would copy the Pharisees in claiming an oral law as the foundation of their authority which only they were privy too. Why copy the Jewish leaders in something so clearly one of their inventions, leaders who were the most criticized of all by Jesus?

Yet Jesus focused on the commandments written in the Scriptures that all could confirm and focus on as the basis for His teachings, as well as using logically based conclusions that anyone could think through for themselves. Not to mention parables that would relate Kingdom truths in a meaningful, simplified way that the listeners could relate to.

 

[guanophore]

Yeah, I always thought it odd that the Catholic Church would copy the Pharisees in claiming an oral law as the foundation of their authority which only they were privy too. Why copy the Jewish leaders in something so clearly one of their inventions, leaders who were the most criticized of all by Jesus?

This accusation is offensive. In addition to being off topic,
It constitutes a baseless anti-Catholic bigotry.

The Church gets her Teachings from Jesus, and Jesus did not write any books while on earth. God has always communicated through spoken and then later, written word. The fact that the Pharisees corrupted the Teaching does not invalidate that God’s word came to them.

Rom 3:2-4
To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every man be false,

The Pharisees did not claim oral law as their authority, but their position on the Seat of Moses.

The Head of the Catholic Church is Jesus, and He transferred the Seat of Moses to Peter.

 

[Jzyehoshua]

This accusation is offensive. In addition to being off topic,
It constitutes a baseless anti-Catholic bigotry.

The Church gets her Teachings from Jesus, and Jesus did not write any books while on earth. God has always communicated through spoken and then later, written word. The fact that the Pharisees corrupted the Teaching does not invalidate that God’s word came to them.

Rom 3:2-4
To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every man be false,

The Pharisees did not claim oral law as their authority, but their position on the Seat of Moses.

The Head of the Catholic Church is Jesus, and He transferred the Seat of Moses to Peter.

Hmm… I don’t see how the Oral Law the Pharisees claimed had been passed down to them from Moses which only they knew could be used non-authoritatively by them.

However, it is off-topic, so I will start a new topic on the issue.

 

[Good_Fella]

That same word charitoo from the Greek is used also in Ephesians to refer to all Christian believers, who as said in 1:7 are stated to have “forgiveness of sins”. I take it that applies to Mary too, then?

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace , wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved .
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood , the forgiveness of sins , according to the riches of his grace ;

Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her , and said , Hail , thou that art highly favoured , the Lord is with thee : blessed art thou among women .

Why do you keep digging up a rotting corpse? That’s what the Ephesians 1, 6 argument is. You believe that the use of the verb ‘charitoo’ in Luke 1, 28 says nothing unique about the Virgin Mary, since the same verb is used in Ephesians 1, 6 referring to all Christians. But the form of the verb is different here. Luke uses a special conjugated form of ‘charitoo’. In his gospel we have “kecharitomene” whereas in Paul’s epistle we have “echaritosen”. :yup: ‘Echaritosen’ means “He graced” (bestowed grace). It signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. [Blass and DeBrunner, ‘Greek Grammar of the New Testament’, p.166.] On the otherhand, ‘kecharitomene’, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. ‘Kecharitomene’ signifies a completed action with a permanent result. [H.W. Smythe, 'Greek Grammar, pp. 108-109; Blass and DeBrunner, p.175] Verse 7 refers to us who are inclined to commit transgressions, for our state of grace is not constant and permanent, but momentary and brought to pass, predisposed to change by our own volition. We have inherited original sin, but according to Luke, Mary was not subject to the fall from grace being preserved from original sin. She did not inherit the tendency to sin. Once she was born, Mary heard the word of God and kept it.

“The Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.”
{Origen, ‘Homily 1’ (A.D. 244)}

Unfortunately, in the last two or three centuries non-Catholic Christians have noticeably lost the Scriptural sense of Mary, who was venerated and praised in Christendom through the centuries even among the Protestant reformers of the 16th century. Modern Protestants tend to ignore the interpretation of Scripture of the historic Christian faithful, and replace it with their own biased private interpretation just for the sake of justifying their own existence apart from the historic Christian faith embodied in the Catholic Church. They suffer from “collective amnesia”.

The Catholic Church is the early Church!

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[sodak]

This accusation is offensive. In addition to being off topic,
It constitutes a baseless anti-Catholic bigotry.

Agreed. Duly noted and reported.

I’m really getting tired of this forum. It seems like rather than coming to exchange views and learn, we are constantly seeing combative non-Catholics trying to sow dissent and division. There is no attempt to learn, and when questions are explored, the real reasons (anti-Catholic bigotry) come roaring to the fore front.

For those who feel as I do, the Traditional and Orthodox forums are a wonderful place to hang out and learn. While there are disagreements there, it is more like adults discussing topics. Here, it’s more like children covering their ears and having a temper tantrum. I don’t have much patience anymore when people are shown the truth and choose not to listen.

One of the many things that I love about the Catholic Church is that when I hear a position or read the Catechism, if something comes up that sounds odd, or I don’t initially agree with it, I can research both the early Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church, and get very clear, lucid reasoning behind the decision or position. I have learned that in the last 2000 years, there have been dozens, if not hundreds, (or more) people who have devoted their lives to this research. I also found out (surprise, surprise), that most, if not all of them, were a WHOLE LOT smarter than me! This is a hobby for me, for them it was their life.

This not only helps to keep me humble about the amount of my knowledge, but it also gives me a whole lot of confidence and adds to my faith. When Christ talked about the Church prevailing, he certainly gave us very practical means for this by calling all of these people to study, learn, and teach us. I’m thankful for that!

Saul definitely thought he was doing the right thing by attacking the early Church. Saul had his conversion while persecuting the Church, and Jesus took it personally. All of you that are on the attack in this forum would do well to remember that.

 

[Jzyehoshua]

Agreed. Duly noted and reported.

I’m really getting tired of this forum. It seems like rather than coming to exchange views and learn, we are constantly seeing combative non-Catholics trying to sow dissent and division. There is no attempt to learn, and when questions are explored, the real reasons (anti-Catholic bigotry) come roaring to the fore front.

For those who feel as I do, the Traditional and Orthodox forums are a wonderful place to hang out and learn. While there are disagreements there, it is more like adults discussing topics. Here, it’s more like children covering their ears and having a temper tantrum. I don’t have much patience anymore when people are shown the truth and choose not to listen.

One of the many things that I love about the Catholic Church is that when I hear a position or read the Catechism, if something comes up that sounds odd, or I don’t initially agree with it, I can research both the early Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church, and get very clear, lucid reasoning behind the decision or position. I have learned that in the last 2000 years, there have been dozens, if not hundreds, (or more) people who have devoted their lives to this research. I also found out (surprise, surprise), that most, if not all of them, were a WHOLE LOT smarter than me! This is a hobby for me, for them it was their life.

This not only helps to keep me humble about the amount of my knowledge, but it also gives me a whole lot of confidence and adds to my faith. When Christ talked about the Church prevailing, he certainly gave us very practical means for this by calling all of these people to study, learn, and teach us. I’m thankful for that!

Saul definitely thought he was doing the right thing by attacking the early Church. Saul had his conversion while persecuting the Church, and Jesus took it personally. All of you that are on the attack in this forum would do well to remember that.

Attack? Hey, I simply asked why the Catholic Church would imitate the Pharisees (and the Pharisees did this long before the Catholic Church existed) in claiming oral traditions passed down gave exclusive knowledge. No one has yet answered me, but have simply claimed my question to be offensive bigotry.

 

[guanophore]

Attack? Hey, I simply asked why the Catholic Church would imitate the Pharisees (and the Pharisees did this long before the Catholic Church existed) in claiming oral traditions passed down gave exclusive knowledge. No one has yet answered me, but have simply claimed my question to be offensive bigotry.

Perhaps it is ignorance, and not from a desire to be insulting.
It really belongs on another thread.

 

[qui_est_ce]

sodak:

This not only helps to keep me humble about the amount of my knowledge, but it also gives me a whole lot of confidence and adds to my faith. When Christ talked about the Church prevailing, he certainly gave us very practical means for this by calling all of these people to study, learn, and teach us. I’m thankful for that!

Hi Sodak, I really like what you say about keeping humble about the amount of your knowledge. We could all use a bit of humble pie in this area. Some would accuse Catholics of “blindly” falling in step with the Magesterium when we bow down before an Authority greater than our puny little minds.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Attack? Hey, I simply asked why the Catholic Church would imitate the Pharisees (and the Pharisees did this long before the Catholic Church existed) in claiming oral traditions passed down gave exclusive knowledge. No one has yet answered me, but have simply claimed my question to be offensive bigotry.

If someone compared your methods to Hitler’s, would you be offended? Would you even dignify the attack with a response?

 

[NotWorthy]

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace , wherein he hath made <charitoo> us accepted <charitoo> in the beloved .

What does “charitoo” mean in this sentence?

“He hath made” or "acceppted?

 

[NotWorthy]

What you’re trying to do is draw out from nothing something through the use of Hebrew grammar rules so obscure that most readers won’t know for sure whether you’re right or wrong even if an expert were to refute you.

But these rules were not obscure to the writers and the original Church. Just because we are numerous languages separated from the Koine Greek doesn’t mean we have to lose the intent of the original authors.

 

[NotWorthy]

Note to all:

There is no separation between Christ and His Church, and no separation between the Church and the scripture. If it seems that they are not in agreement, then the individual is lacking in understanding.

You don’t mean… In marriage, the Two have become One!!!

You can’t love the Church without loving Christ!

 

[justasking4]

Note to all:

There is no separation between Christ and His Church, and no separation between the Church and the scripture. If it seems that they are not in agreement, then the individual is lacking in understanding.

You are making an assumption that all of this Holy Word is contained in scripture, but it is not. God revealed His Word orally to the Apostles, and they passed on this Sacred Tradition to others before a word of the NT was ever written. These passages apply to both the Sacred Writing,a nd the Sacred Tradition.

Your statement “this Sacred Tradition to others before a word of the NT was ever written” needs some clarification. Are you claiming that there is some kind of “Sacred Tradition” that was the oral teachings of the aposltes that was not recored in the Scriptures but was somehow passed on to others?

 

[justasking4]

Note to all:

There is no separation between Christ and His Church, and no separation between the Church and the scripture. If it seems that they are not in agreement, then the individual is lacking in understanding.

You are making an assumption that all of this Holy Word is contained in scripture, but it is not. God revealed His Word orally to the Apostles, and they passed on this Sacred Tradition to others before a word of the NT was ever written. These passages apply to both the Sacred Writing,a nd the Sacred Tradition.

Aren’t you off topic here?

 

[Jzyehoshua]

If someone compared your methods to Hitler’s, would you be offended? Would you even dignify the attack with a response?

I would respond because I believe in being accountable. As long as they’re presenting the case reasonably apart from ad hominem tactics, then why not answer it?

If the accusation is completely false, then the logic will unravel as their questions are approached in the light of reason. Besides, I have no concern for those who present questions calmly and rationally, even if the questions at first seem ridiculous.

I find the ones with truly evil motives who truly mean harm are not content to simply reason logically in such a way, but inevitably resort to base methods of character assassination; attacking a person’s character when they can not beat the logic and reasoning.

I would greatly prefer a person instead who came with the most horrible accusations against me but was willing to discuss them in a calm, logical, and honest manner.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yeah, I always thought it odd that the Catholic Church would copy the Pharisees in claiming an oral law as the foundation of their authority which only they were privy too. Why copy the Jewish leaders in something so clearly one of their inventions, leaders who were the most criticized of all by Jesus?

But Jesus never questioned the authority of the Pharisees. Just the prudence in which they exerted it (“prudence” being a little mild compared to Jesus’ words).

The Authority that Jesus gave the Church is real. The power to bind and loose. The traditions that Paul told his audience to hold on to.

Let me ask you this:

If Jesus gave the Church this authority, who are you to deny it! That is anti-biblical.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hmm… I don’t see how the Oral Law the Pharisees claimed had been passed down to them from Moses which only they knew could be used non-authoritatively by them.

However, it is off-topic, so I will start a new topic on the issue.

Didn’t they sit on the Seat of Moses?

 

[Michael_Francis]

This thread has been pruned of offensive and off topic posts.
Please remain on topic and the highest level of Christian charity.
MF

 

[guanophore]

Your statement “this Sacred Tradition to others before a word of the NT was ever written” needs some clarification. Are you claiming that there is some kind of “Sacred Tradition” that was the oral teachings of the aposltes that was not recored in the Scriptures but was somehow passed on to others?

How can you possibly ask me that, ja4, after all the rounds we have done. I know that you reject the notion that “everything” didn’t get into the Bible. The fact is that it did not. Your refusal to accept the validity of Sacred Tradition will not make it go away.

Aren’t you off topic here?

Probably. It is impossible to have a discussion about Mary without getting into Sacred Tradition.