Could Mary have sinned?

[Old_Scholar]

Since Sacred Tradition consists of the oral teachings of the apostles, then it should be very easy to prove.

All those who lived during the time of the apostles certainly wrote a lot and I feel certain that they would have written down what the apostles had to say or else we would not know what the Sacred Tradition was.

So why doesn’t someone point us to the writings of those who lived in the first century, such as: Ignatius, Polycarp, Barnabas, Clement and Justin Martyr.

They all left many writings so it should be an easy task to settle the “Sacred Tradition” thing for once and for all.

I don’t suppose anyone is saying that Ignatius and Barnabas told Clement and Theophilus who told Tertullian who told Origen and Hippolytus and Cyprian who then told Julius Africanus and Dinysius and that takes us up to the third and fourth centuries.

All those men left many writings so all we have to do is go to them and we can see what Sacred Tradition really tell us.

Would someone please list these writings so those of us who are questioning some of the RCC teachings can be quieted??? Surely these Sacred Traditions are written down???

 

[NotWorthy]

Since Sacred Tradition consists of the oral teachings of the apostles, then it should be very easy to prove.

All those who lived during the time of the apostles certainly wrote a lot and I feel certain that they would have written down what the apostles had to say or else we would not know what the Sacred Tradition was.

So why doesn’t someone point us to the writings of those who lived in the first century, such as: Ignatius, Polycarp, Barnabas, Clement and Justin Martyr.

They all left many writings so it should be an easy task to settle the “Sacred Tradition” thing for once and for all.

I don’t suppose anyone is saying that Ignatius and Barnabas told Clement and Theophilus who told Tertullian who told Origen and Hippolytus and Cyprian who then told Julius Africanus and Dinysius and that takes us up to the third and fourth centuries.

All those men left many writings so all we have to do is go to them and we can see what Sacred Tradition really tell us.

Would someone please list these writings so those of us who are questioning some of the RCC teachings can be quieted??? Surely these Sacred Traditions are written down???

How long did it take the Jews to write down their Sacred Traditions?

 

[NotWorthy]

Since Sacred Tradition consists of the oral teachings of the apostles, then it should be very easy to prove.

All those who lived during the time of the apostles certainly wrote a lot and I feel certain that they would have written down what the apostles had to say or else we would not know what the Sacred Tradition was.

So why doesn’t someone point us to the writings of those who lived in the first century, such as: Ignatius, Polycarp, Barnabas, Clement and Justin Martyr.

They all left many writings so it should be an easy task to settle the “Sacred Tradition” thing for once and for all.

I don’t suppose anyone is saying that Ignatius and Barnabas told Clement and Theophilus who told Tertullian who told Origen and Hippolytus and Cyprian who then told Julius Africanus and Dinysius and that takes us up to the third and fourth centuries.

All those men left many writings so all we have to do is go to them and we can see what Sacred Tradition really tell us.

Would someone please list these writings so those of us who are questioning some of the RCC teachings can be quieted??? Surely these Sacred Traditions are written down???

Here’s one Sacred Tradition they talked about. Let’s see if you’ve held fast to is, Old Scholar.

================================================== ======
**DIDACHE or TEACHING OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES (c. 70-90 A.D.) **
On the Lord’s Day of the Lord gather together, break bread and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions SO THAT YOUR SACRIFICE MAY BE PURE. Let no one who has a quarrel with his neighbor join you until he is reconciled by the Lord: “In every place and time let there be OFFERED TO ME A CLEAN SACRIFICE. For I am a Great King,” says the Lord, “and My name is wonderful among the Gentiles.” (14:1-2)
================================================== ======
ST. CLEMENT OF ROME (c. 80 A.D.)
Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have OFFERED ITS SACRIFICES [or ***offered the gifts, *

referring to the Eucharist]. (Letter to Corinthians 44:4)
================================================== ======
ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (c. 110 A.D.) **
I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the Bread of God, WHICH IS THE FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I DESIRE HIS BLOOD, which is love incorruptible. (Letter to Romans 7:3)
Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: FOR THERE IS ONE FLESH OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and one cup IN THE UNION OF HIS BLOOD; one ALTAR, as there is one bishop with the presbytery… (Letter to Philadelphians 4:1)
They * abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrn 7:1)
================================================== ======
ST. JUSTIN THE MARTYR (c. 100 - 165 A.D.) **
We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [Baptism], and is thereby living as Christ has enjoined.
For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, AND BY THE CHANGE OF WHICH our blood and flesh is nourished, IS BOTH THE FLESH AND THE BLOOD OF THAT INCARNATED JESUS. (First Apology 66)
Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachi [1:10-12]…It is of the SACRIFICES OFFERED TO HIM IN EVERY PLACE BY US, the Gentiles, that is, OF THE BREAD OF THE EUCHARIST AND LIKEWISE OF THE CUP OF THE EUCHARIST, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it. **(Dialogue with Trypho 41)***When was the last time you had an Altar in your church, OS? When was the last time your whole congregation shared in the One Pure Sacrfice?

 

[Old_Scholar]

Here’s one Sacred Tradition they talked about. Let’s see if you’ve held fast to is, Old Scholar.
When was the last time you had an Altar in your church, OS? When was the last time your whole congregation shared in the One Pure Sacrfice?

I see you did the right thing—deflect the issue by asking another question. Give us the quotes from those same fathers about Mary’s perpetual virginity please…

And my church celebrates Communion quite often, and we certainly do believe Christ is present.

 

[guanophore]

Since Sacred Tradition consists of the oral teachings of the apostles, then it should be very easy to prove.

All those who lived during the time of the apostles certainly wrote a lot and I feel certain that they would have written down what the apostles had to say or else we would not know what the Sacred Tradition was.

You are reaching a false conclusion becuase you are starting with a faulty premise. Sacred Tradition is comprised of much more than Oral teaching of the Apostles. To say that “All those who lived during the time of the Apostles certainly…” No. Jesus apparently only wrote ever in the sand…We don’t have any Apostolic writings from the majority of the Apostles. The fact is that there is much of the Teaching that did not get written. It is more likely to find it later, because there are no Sacred Traditions that are not at this time referred to somewhere in writing.

So why doesn’t someone point us to the writings of those who lived in the first century, such as: Ignatius, Polycarp, Barnabas, Clement and Justin Martyr.

They all left many writings so it should be an easy task to settle the “Sacred Tradition” thing for once and for all.

Clearly not, OS.

I don’t suppose anyone is saying that Ignatius and Barnabas told Clement and Theophilus who told Tertullian who told Origen and Hippolytus and Cyprian who then told Julius Africanus and Dinysius and that takes us up to the third and fourth centuries.

Is this not how the canon developed?

All those men left many writings so all we have to do is go to them and we can see what Sacred Tradition really tell us.

Would someone please list these writings so those of us who are questioning some of the RCC teachings can be quieted??? Surely these Sacred Traditions are written down???

Most of them were writing against heresies and persectutions, and since the Marian doctrines were not considered heresy, they focused attention of the false teachings instead.

Don’t be disingenuous, OS. You will not be quieted. You have already rejected Sacred Tradition as authentic and authoritive, therefore, any “list” would be of no avail!

 

[Old_Scholar]

notworthy

By the way—does the Didache support your belief of the Eucharist?

 

[Old_Scholar]

You are reaching a false conclusion becuase you are starting with a faulty premise. Sacred Tradition is comprised of much more than Oral teaching of the Apostles. To say that “All those who lived during the time of the Apostles certainly…” No. Jesus apparently only wrote ever in the sand…We don’t have any Apostolic writings from the majority of the Apostles. The fact is that there is much of the Teaching that did not get written. It is more likely to find it later, because there are no Sacred Traditions that are not at this time referred to somewhere in writing.

Clearly not, OS.

Is this not how the canon developed?

Most of them were writing against heresies and persectutions, and since the Marian doctrines were not considered heresy, they focused attention of the false teachings instead.

Don’t be disingenuous, OS. You will not be quieted. You have already rejected Sacred Tradition as authentic and authoritive, therefore, any “list” would be of no avail!

So then, tell me how you determine what Sacred Tradition is?

 

[guanophore]

So then, tell me how you determine what Sacred Tradition is?

It is the Teaching of the Church. 2 Tim 2:1-2
2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

It is what the believers heard and saw of the Apostles that has been continuously entrusted to faithful men since that time.

Old_Scholar:

So what do they use as a teaching guide?

Who are “they”? You mean, the bishops? Scripture is a major guide, and the Magesterium. The catechism is an easily accessible reference. There are, of course, countless resources available in person and in writing.

 

[Old_Scholar]

It is the Teaching of the Church.

So what do they use as a teaching guide?

 

[Church_Militant]

So what do they use as a teaching guide?

Why the revelation of God as found in the Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the Teaching of the magisterium of the church. scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c3a1.htm#142

 

[NotWorthy]

I see you did the right thing—deflect the issue by asking another question. Give us the quotes from those same fathers about Mary’s perpetual virginity please…

And my church celebrates Communion quite often, and we certainly do believe Christ is present.

You asked for a list of Sacred Traditions. I sent you one, and showed you that it has been taught in our Church since Apostolic times.

Your Church can celebrate communion all it wants. Does your Church believe that it is a Sacrifice that you are offering up. My quotes all referenced a Sacrfice. Notice the Altar in many of the quotes.

Where is your Altar? Where is your Sacrifice?

 

[NotWorthy]

notworthy

By the way—does the Didache support your belief of the Eucharist?

Why, I’d say yes it does!

Chapter 9.—The Thanksgiving (Eucharist)

1. Now concerning the Thanksgiving (Eucharist), thus give thanks. 2. First, concerning the cup: We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of David Your servant, which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. 3. And concerning the broken bread : We thank You, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. 4. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Your kingdom; for Yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever. 5. But let no one eat or drink of your Thanksgiving (Eucharist), but they who have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, Give not that which is holy to the dogs. Matthew 7:6
   Chapter 10.—Prayer After Communion

1. But after you are filled, thus give thanks: 2. We thank You, holy Father, for Your holy name which You caused to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever. 3. You, Master almighty, created all things for Your name’s sake; You gave food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to You; but to us You freely gave spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Your Servant. 4. Before all things we thank You that You are mighty; to You be the glory for ever. 5. Remember, Lord, Your Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Your love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Your kingdom which You have prepared for it; for Yours is the power and the glory for ever. 6. Let grace come, and let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God (Son) of David! If any one is holy, let him come; if any one is not so, let him repent. Maran atha. Amen. 7. But permit the prophets to make Thanksgiving as much as they desire.

 

[Tomster]

I see you did the right thing—deflect the issue by asking another question. Give us the quotes from those same fathers about Mary’s perpetual virginity please…

And my church celebrates Communion quite often, and we certainly do believe Christ is present.

Good grief:

St. Irenaeus - Adversus haereses
St. Justin - Dialogus cum Tryphone
St. Jerome - ADVERSUS HELVIDIUM
St. Hilary of Poitiers - Commentary on St. Matthew
St. Epiphanius - Haereses
St. Ambrose - Adversus Jovinianum & De Institiutione Virginis

And around and around we go.

 

[Tomster]

So then, tell me how you determine what Sacred Tradition is?

Tradition is the dynamic fulfillment of the Church’s obligation to preach the Gospel, the collective consciousness which the Church has of the deposit of faith. The handing on of the faith is done by the continuous preaching of the magistery, by the belief of the Church, by the Holy Spirit speaking through the living Church. Tradition is the only means by which the primitive revelation could have been transmitted. Even when revelation began to be written down in the time of Moses, oral tradition continued. It is a doctrine of faith that the Christian revelation is handed on by this means.

2 Thessalonians 2:14
Galatians 1:9

As there is one object of belief and that is the revelation of God, deposited in Scriptures and Tradition, so there is one proximate rule of faith and that is the living voice of the Church Teaching.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Why the revelation of God as found in the Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and the Teaching of the magisterium of the church. scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c3a1.htm#142

Are you saying that this is the oral testimony given by the apostles? Have you read it? Are you aware of the many, many changes made to it by the Pope II in 1997?

This isn’t Sacred Tradition passed down, it is a collection of rules made by humans, many years after the apostles had died.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Good grief:

St. Irenaeus - Adversus haereses
St. Justin - Dialogus cum Tryphone
St. Jerome - ADVERSUS HELVIDIUM
St. Hilary of Poitiers - Commentary on St. Matthew
St. Epiphanius - Haereses
St. Ambrose - Adversus Jovinianum & De Institiutione Virginis

And around and around we go.

So you don’t have the quotes about Mary’s perpetual virginity from the fathers?

 

[Old_Scholar]

Tradition is the dynamic fulfillment of the Church’s obligation to preach the Gospel, the collective consciousness which the Church has of the deposit of faith. The handing on of the faith is done by the continuous preaching of the magistery, by the belief of the Church, by the Holy Spirit speaking through the living Church. Tradition is the only means by which the primitive revelation could have been transmitted. Even when revelation began to be written down in the time of Moses, oral tradition continued. It is a doctrine of faith that the Christian revelation is handed on by this means.

2 Thessalonians 2:14
Galatians 1:9

As there is one object of belief and that is the revelation of God, deposited in Scriptures and Tradition, so there is one proximate rule of faith and that is the living voice of the Church Teaching.

How does your magesterium know what the oral tradition was?

 

[Old_Scholar]

Why, I’d say yes it does!

Sorry but I don’t see anything there about transubstantiation. Just the same things all Christians believe, that we are drinking the blook of Christ and eating His flesh symbolically.

 

[davidv]

Sorry but I don’t see anything there about transubstantiation. Just the same things all Christians believe, that we are drinking the blook of Christ and eating His flesh symbolically.

How could you see it? You are not looking for it.

 

[davidv]

How does your magesterium know what the oral tradition was?

It was taught to them by their predecessors.