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- Status
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MissyB786
Guest
Same could be said about Moses, or Jesus (PBUT) that their life and revelations and Moses speak to burning bush and Jesus talking to ‘Father’ were all hallucinations.
This sounds like an atheist response. If someone had epilepsy and mental health concerns, why did he do so many amazing things such as abolishing paganism, giving women’s rights of inheritance and status when none existed, not even in the Christian faith at the time, giving Slaves rights and freedom, he owned slave whose family came to claim him, he set him free and asked him where he wud like to go and the the Slave chose to stay with him and was adopted as a son.(Zayd Ibn Harithah) and all sorts of amazing things that came to be. I don’t think people with mental health concerns would be bothered about other people n their rights?
M
MissyB786
Guest
in.reuters.com/article/2007/08/24/idINIndia-29140020070824
also so r u saying there r Muslims out there that can’t do amazing things, unfortunately due to media bias u will never see the good that Muslims do.
guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/22/religion.socialexclusion
**
Just cos one person did amazing things, don’t discredit that no one else can do nething of any good.
**
Muslims dont believe in abstinence, they believe in a balance in life between family and life obligations as well has charity, good deeds and worship. You don’t need to become a nun to do good things. If anything abstinence is not encoruaged as people have desires and it better to get married rather to fall into sin, I don’t want to bring up the issue of Catholic priests and child abuse, those who have dedicated their life to God. So enforcing abstinence is not a good thing. You need a balanced life else you can take the extremes to either end.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Epilepsy is simply a sickness. When an epileptic person does not have a seizure he is quite normal with good reasoning faculty. I would not go into the line the Mohammad was epileptic, though people who say so feel that by his behavior it was consistent with epilepsy. Do not feel too bad about it. Even Moses was not completely normal. It was said he had an impediment in speech. And as you can see, yet he could still be a prophet.
F
FireFromHeaven
Guest
If you look at the link I posted on the conquest of Sicily it says that Christians had to:
- they had to bring identification marks on their suits and on their houses;
- they had to pay more taxes (Jaziya);
– they could not occupy positions that entailed authority over the Muslims;
– they could not marry a Muslim (but a Muslim could marry a Christian);
– they could not build new churches;
– they could not ring Church bells;
– they could not organize processions;
– they could not read the Bible within the earshot of a Muslim;
– they could not drink wine;
– they had to get up when a Muslim entered the room; - they had to let the Muslims pass first in the public road;
- they could not bear weapons;
– they could not ride horses;
– they could not saddle their mules;
– they could not build great houses as those of the Muslims.
-The Christian women could not have access to the baths.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Of course there are many Muslims who do good work of charity. And this good.
Actually it is not just one person. Mother Teresa is a good example because she is contemporary and perhaps most people know or have heard of her. There are thousands upon thousands of Christian saints who were inspired bah the teaching of Jesus that they simply gave up their worldly lives and worked for the glory and goodness of God.
Both states of lives are acceptable to God. One can be a married person, bring up a family according to the way of God. On the other hand, if one is called and can live a life of not being married, that is better. Not many people are called in such a way though but those who are called will focus their lives completely for the work, good and glory of God.
For is not it true, that when you are married, your responsibility is to your wife and children? And you have to attend to them and perhaps listen to your wife too. But if you are not married, you are relieved of such responsibility that sky is the limit for you to do the work of God on earth.
N
nmgauss
Guest
Is this post intended to refute my statement of requiring Christians to become Muslims?
It is true that many restrictions were placed on non-Muslims, but these people were not forced to convert. It is similar to what happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany before the Holocaust. They were repressed and abused only.
These points you brought up were in Sicily. Who was in power at this time? Were they also true for the entire Islamic Empire? When the Umayyads were in power, they instituted policies that departed from the Koran and the examples set by Muhannad. When Imam Hussain refused to swear allegiance to Yazid I, the third Umayyad caliph, he was assassinated. So there were caliphs who thought that following the patterns established by their predecessors were not in their best interests.
F
FireFromHeaven
Guest
I was not trying to refute merely pointing out exactly what proveliges were lost.
On this being done throughout the empire, yes it was. It got so bad for the Zoroastrians of Persia that they fled to India. The invasion of Sicily was done by the Umayyad caliphate but the conquest of Persia was by the Rashidun caliphs. Here is a quote from Wikipedia.
Until the Arab invasion, in the mid 7th century Persia (modern-day Iran) was a politically independent state, spanning from the Aegean Sea to the Indus River[3] and dominated by a Zoroastrian majority.[3][4][5][6] Zoroastrianism was the state religion of four pre-Islamic Persian empires,[7] the last being the Sassanian empire that passed a decree in 224 CE.[5][8][8] The Arab invasion brought abrutly to an end the religious domination of Zoroastrianism in Persia and instituted Islam as the official religion of the state.[9][10][11] When asked by Yazdegerd, about the reasons for the unwarranted Arab aggression against Persians, an Arab soldier replied, “Allah commanded us, by the mouth of His Prophet, to extend the dominion of Islam over all nations.” [12]
After the Muslim conquest of Persia, Zoroastrians were given dhimmi status and subjected to persecutions; discrimination and harassment began in the form of sparse violence.[3][13] Zoroastrians were made to pay an extra tax called Jizya, failing which they were either killed, enslaved or imprisoned. Those paying Jizya were subjected to insults and humiliation by the tax collectors.[14][15][16] Zoroastrians who were captured as slaves in wars were given their freedom if they converted to Islam.[14][17]
Zoroastrian places of worship were desecrated,shrines were destroyed[citation needed] and mosques built in their place.[18] Many fire temples, with their four axial arch openings, were usually turned into mosques simply by setting a mihrab (prayer niche) on the place of the arch nearest to qibla (the direction of Mecca). Zoroastrian temples converted into mosques in such a manner could be found in Bukhara, as well as in and near Istakhr and other Persian cities.[19] Urban cities where Arab governors made their quarters were most vulnerable to such religious persecution, great fire temples were turned into mosques, and the citizens were forced to conform or flee.[20] Many libraries were burnt and much cultural heritage was lost.[21]
Gradually there were increased number of laws regulating Zoroastrian behavior, limiting their ability to participate in society, and make life difficult for the Zoroastrians in the hope that they would convert to Islam.[21] Any political, military, or economic resistance by Zoroastrians was unfeasible or violently suppressed by the government.[17][22][23]
Over time, persecution of Zoroastrians became more common and widespread, and the number of believers decreased significantly. Many converted, some superficially, to escape the systematic abuse and discrimination by the law of the land.[14] Others accepted Islam because their employment in industrial and artisan work would, according to Zoroastrian dogma, make them impure as their work involved defiling fire.[24] According to Thomas Walker Arnold, Muslim missionaries did not encounter difficulty in explaining Islamic tenants to Zoroastrians, as there were many similarities between the faiths. According to Arnold, for the Persian, he would meet Ahura Mazda and Ahriman under the names of Allah and Iblis.[24]
Once a Zoroastrian family converted to Islam, the children had to go to Muslim religion school and learn Arabic and the teachings of the Quran and these children lost their Zoroastrian identity.[14] Those who had converted just for the convenience could not revert to Zoroastrianism because the penalty for renouncing Islam was death.[17] These factors continued to contribute to increasing rates of conversion from Zoroastrianism to Islam.[25] A Persian scholar commented, “Why so many had to die or suffer? Because one side was determined to impose his religion upon the other who could not understand.".[26]
In the following centuries, Zoroastrians faced much religious discrimination and persecution, harassments, as well as being identified as najis (polluted) and impure to Muslims, making them unfit to live alongside Muslims therefore forcing them to evacuate from cities and face major sanctions in all spheres of life. Zoroastrians have been subject to public humiliation through dress regulations, to being labeled as najis and to exclusion in the fields of society, education and work.[2]
Cont.
On this being done throughout the empire, yes it was. It got so bad for the Zoroastrians of Persia that they fled to India. The invasion of Sicily was done by the Umayyad caliphate but the conquest of Persia was by the Rashidun caliphs. Here is a quote from Wikipedia.
Until the Arab invasion, in the mid 7th century Persia (modern-day Iran) was a politically independent state, spanning from the Aegean Sea to the Indus River[3] and dominated by a Zoroastrian majority.[3][4][5][6] Zoroastrianism was the state religion of four pre-Islamic Persian empires,[7] the last being the Sassanian empire that passed a decree in 224 CE.[5][8][8] The Arab invasion brought abrutly to an end the religious domination of Zoroastrianism in Persia and instituted Islam as the official religion of the state.[9][10][11] When asked by Yazdegerd, about the reasons for the unwarranted Arab aggression against Persians, an Arab soldier replied, “Allah commanded us, by the mouth of His Prophet, to extend the dominion of Islam over all nations.” [12]
After the Muslim conquest of Persia, Zoroastrians were given dhimmi status and subjected to persecutions; discrimination and harassment began in the form of sparse violence.[3][13] Zoroastrians were made to pay an extra tax called Jizya, failing which they were either killed, enslaved or imprisoned. Those paying Jizya were subjected to insults and humiliation by the tax collectors.[14][15][16] Zoroastrians who were captured as slaves in wars were given their freedom if they converted to Islam.[14][17]
Zoroastrian places of worship were desecrated,shrines were destroyed[citation needed] and mosques built in their place.[18] Many fire temples, with their four axial arch openings, were usually turned into mosques simply by setting a mihrab (prayer niche) on the place of the arch nearest to qibla (the direction of Mecca). Zoroastrian temples converted into mosques in such a manner could be found in Bukhara, as well as in and near Istakhr and other Persian cities.[19] Urban cities where Arab governors made their quarters were most vulnerable to such religious persecution, great fire temples were turned into mosques, and the citizens were forced to conform or flee.[20] Many libraries were burnt and much cultural heritage was lost.[21]
Gradually there were increased number of laws regulating Zoroastrian behavior, limiting their ability to participate in society, and make life difficult for the Zoroastrians in the hope that they would convert to Islam.[21] Any political, military, or economic resistance by Zoroastrians was unfeasible or violently suppressed by the government.[17][22][23]
Over time, persecution of Zoroastrians became more common and widespread, and the number of believers decreased significantly. Many converted, some superficially, to escape the systematic abuse and discrimination by the law of the land.[14] Others accepted Islam because their employment in industrial and artisan work would, according to Zoroastrian dogma, make them impure as their work involved defiling fire.[24] According to Thomas Walker Arnold, Muslim missionaries did not encounter difficulty in explaining Islamic tenants to Zoroastrians, as there were many similarities between the faiths. According to Arnold, for the Persian, he would meet Ahura Mazda and Ahriman under the names of Allah and Iblis.[24]
Once a Zoroastrian family converted to Islam, the children had to go to Muslim religion school and learn Arabic and the teachings of the Quran and these children lost their Zoroastrian identity.[14] Those who had converted just for the convenience could not revert to Zoroastrianism because the penalty for renouncing Islam was death.[17] These factors continued to contribute to increasing rates of conversion from Zoroastrianism to Islam.[25] A Persian scholar commented, “Why so many had to die or suffer? Because one side was determined to impose his religion upon the other who could not understand.".[26]
In the following centuries, Zoroastrians faced much religious discrimination and persecution, harassments, as well as being identified as najis (polluted) and impure to Muslims, making them unfit to live alongside Muslims therefore forcing them to evacuate from cities and face major sanctions in all spheres of life. Zoroastrians have been subject to public humiliation through dress regulations, to being labeled as najis and to exclusion in the fields of society, education and work.[2]
Cont.
F
FireFromHeaven
Guest
The Caliphs (642–661 CE)
Under the first four Caliphs, Persia remained predominantly Zoroastrian. Zoroastrians were awarded the status of People of the Book or dhimmi status by the Caliph Umar, although some practices contrary to Islam were prohibited.[21][27] Before this took place, however, thousands of Zoroastrian priests were executed, hundreds of temples destroyed, and religious texts burned, and the use of the ancient Avestan as well as Persian languages was prohibited.[28] Umar did not take the jizya from the “Magian infidels” (Zoroastrians) until he heard a testimony that Muhammad had taken the jizya from the Magians of Hajar.[29]
When the Persian capital of Ctesiphon in province of Khvârvarân (today known as Iraq) fell to the Muslims during the Islamic conquest of Persia in 637 under the military command of Sa’ad ibn Abi Waqqas during the caliphate of Umar, the palaces and their archives were burned. According to an account in Tarikh al-Tabari by Al-Tabari, the Arab Commander Sa’ad ibn Abi Waqqas wrote to Caliph Umar ibn al-Khatta-b asking what should be done with the books at Ctesiphon. Umar wrote back: “If the books contradict the Qur’an, they are blasphemous. On the other hand, if they are in agreement, they are not needed, as for us Qur’an is sufficient.”[30] Thus, the huge library was destroyed and the books, the product of the generations of Persian scientists and scholars were thrown into fire or the Euphrates.[31] Nearly 40,000 captured Persian noblemen were taken as slaves and sold in Arabia.[32] The Arabs called the Persians ‘Ajam’ meaning mute. The first voice of protest came from Firooz, an enslaved Persian artisan, who assassinated Umar.[33]
Muslim chronicles state that, in the Battle of Ullais seeing no opening, no weakening of the Persian resistance, the Arab commander in chief Khalid ibn al-Walid, tired, angry, and frustrated prayed to Allah: “O Lord! If You give us victory, I shall see that no enemy warrior is left alive until their river runs with their blood!”. After the battle, Khalid ibn al-Walid ordered all the prisoners of war be decapitated.[34] In the river Khaseef the blood was still not flowing, as Khalid had pledged, until on the advice of Qa’qa ibn Amr one of the commanders of the Muslim army, Khalid ordered the dam on the river to be opened. The river then flowed with blood, and it became known as the River of Blood.[35] When the city of Estakhr in the south, a Zoroastrian religious center,[36][37] put up stiff resistance against the Arab invaders, 40,000 residents were slaughtered or hanged.[38]
Especially interesting is the Zoroastrian scholars quote and the Muslim soldiers quote.
Here is from another link. factsanddetails.com/world.php?itemid=1921&catid=55&subcatid=350
Zoroastrianism remained a major religion until the Arab invasion in the 7th century when most Persians converted to Islam. Under Muslim rule, Zoroastrians were persecuted and subjected to forced conversion. During this period many emigrated to India, where they became known as the Parsis. Some also moved to China but that community was suppressed in the 11th century.
The Zoroastrians that remained in Iran endured severe poverty and discrimination. By the 13th century they had disappeared from the historical record. It wasn’t until European began exploring Iran in the 17th century that the Zoroastrians were rediscovered.
Also around this time the Jews and Christians were forced out of arabia.
Quote: In year 20 of the Muslim era, or the year 641 AD, Muhammad’s successor the Caliph 'Umar decreed that Jews and Christians should be removed from all but the southern and eastern fringes of Arabia—a decree based on the (sometimes disputed) uttering of the Prophet: “Let there not be two religions in Arabia”. The two populations in question were the Jews of the Khaybar oasis in the north and the Christians of Najran.[6] Other sources report the forced deportation of Jews and Christians occurring in 634 AD, with the last remnants of these two monotheistic religions being removed from the Arabian peninsula by the year 650.[7] From this point onwards the Holy Land of the Hijaz was forbidden to non-Muslims.[8] Only the Red Sea port of Jedda was permitted as a “religious quarantine area” and continued to have a small complement of Jewish merchants.
Wikipedia
Palestine was conquered by the Islamic Empire, beginning in 634 CE. In 636 CE, the Battle of Yarmouk during the Muslim conquest of Syria symbolized the complete Muslim takeover of the region, which was regarded as Bilad a-Sham (Greater Syria). The word ‘Arab’ at the time referred to Bedouin nomads with an Arabian ancestry. The local population engaged in farming, which was considered demeaning, were called Nabaț, referring to Aramaic-speaking villagers. A ḥadīth, brought in the name of a Muslim freedman who settled in Palestine ordered them not to settle in the villages, for he who abides in villages it is as if he abides in graves.’[37] In 661 CE, with the assassination of Ali, Muawiyah I became the uncontested Caliph of the Islamic World after being crowned in Jerusalem. The Dome of the Rock, completed in 691, was the world’s first great work of Islamic architecture
Wikipedia.
However Jews we’re given greater freedom.
Finally here is a list of non Arab sources on the Arab invasions. christianorigins.com/islamrefs.html
However it doesn’t matter to me whether early Islam spread by the sword, by the word or both. What matter to me is that it contradicts Jesus’ gospel.
Under the first four Caliphs, Persia remained predominantly Zoroastrian. Zoroastrians were awarded the status of People of the Book or dhimmi status by the Caliph Umar, although some practices contrary to Islam were prohibited.[21][27] Before this took place, however, thousands of Zoroastrian priests were executed, hundreds of temples destroyed, and religious texts burned, and the use of the ancient Avestan as well as Persian languages was prohibited.[28] Umar did not take the jizya from the “Magian infidels” (Zoroastrians) until he heard a testimony that Muhammad had taken the jizya from the Magians of Hajar.[29]
When the Persian capital of Ctesiphon in province of Khvârvarân (today known as Iraq) fell to the Muslims during the Islamic conquest of Persia in 637 under the military command of Sa’ad ibn Abi Waqqas during the caliphate of Umar, the palaces and their archives were burned. According to an account in Tarikh al-Tabari by Al-Tabari, the Arab Commander Sa’ad ibn Abi Waqqas wrote to Caliph Umar ibn al-Khatta-b asking what should be done with the books at Ctesiphon. Umar wrote back: “If the books contradict the Qur’an, they are blasphemous. On the other hand, if they are in agreement, they are not needed, as for us Qur’an is sufficient.”[30] Thus, the huge library was destroyed and the books, the product of the generations of Persian scientists and scholars were thrown into fire or the Euphrates.[31] Nearly 40,000 captured Persian noblemen were taken as slaves and sold in Arabia.[32] The Arabs called the Persians ‘Ajam’ meaning mute. The first voice of protest came from Firooz, an enslaved Persian artisan, who assassinated Umar.[33]
Muslim chronicles state that, in the Battle of Ullais seeing no opening, no weakening of the Persian resistance, the Arab commander in chief Khalid ibn al-Walid, tired, angry, and frustrated prayed to Allah: “O Lord! If You give us victory, I shall see that no enemy warrior is left alive until their river runs with their blood!”. After the battle, Khalid ibn al-Walid ordered all the prisoners of war be decapitated.[34] In the river Khaseef the blood was still not flowing, as Khalid had pledged, until on the advice of Qa’qa ibn Amr one of the commanders of the Muslim army, Khalid ordered the dam on the river to be opened. The river then flowed with blood, and it became known as the River of Blood.[35] When the city of Estakhr in the south, a Zoroastrian religious center,[36][37] put up stiff resistance against the Arab invaders, 40,000 residents were slaughtered or hanged.[38]
Especially interesting is the Zoroastrian scholars quote and the Muslim soldiers quote.
Here is from another link. factsanddetails.com/world.php?itemid=1921&catid=55&subcatid=350
Zoroastrianism remained a major religion until the Arab invasion in the 7th century when most Persians converted to Islam. Under Muslim rule, Zoroastrians were persecuted and subjected to forced conversion. During this period many emigrated to India, where they became known as the Parsis. Some also moved to China but that community was suppressed in the 11th century.
The Zoroastrians that remained in Iran endured severe poverty and discrimination. By the 13th century they had disappeared from the historical record. It wasn’t until European began exploring Iran in the 17th century that the Zoroastrians were rediscovered.
Also around this time the Jews and Christians were forced out of arabia.
Quote: In year 20 of the Muslim era, or the year 641 AD, Muhammad’s successor the Caliph 'Umar decreed that Jews and Christians should be removed from all but the southern and eastern fringes of Arabia—a decree based on the (sometimes disputed) uttering of the Prophet: “Let there not be two religions in Arabia”. The two populations in question were the Jews of the Khaybar oasis in the north and the Christians of Najran.[6] Other sources report the forced deportation of Jews and Christians occurring in 634 AD, with the last remnants of these two monotheistic religions being removed from the Arabian peninsula by the year 650.[7] From this point onwards the Holy Land of the Hijaz was forbidden to non-Muslims.[8] Only the Red Sea port of Jedda was permitted as a “religious quarantine area” and continued to have a small complement of Jewish merchants.
Wikipedia
Palestine was conquered by the Islamic Empire, beginning in 634 CE. In 636 CE, the Battle of Yarmouk during the Muslim conquest of Syria symbolized the complete Muslim takeover of the region, which was regarded as Bilad a-Sham (Greater Syria). The word ‘Arab’ at the time referred to Bedouin nomads with an Arabian ancestry. The local population engaged in farming, which was considered demeaning, were called Nabaț, referring to Aramaic-speaking villagers. A ḥadīth, brought in the name of a Muslim freedman who settled in Palestine ordered them not to settle in the villages, for he who abides in villages it is as if he abides in graves.’[37] In 661 CE, with the assassination of Ali, Muawiyah I became the uncontested Caliph of the Islamic World after being crowned in Jerusalem. The Dome of the Rock, completed in 691, was the world’s first great work of Islamic architecture
Wikipedia.
However Jews we’re given greater freedom.
Finally here is a list of non Arab sources on the Arab invasions. christianorigins.com/islamrefs.html
However it doesn’t matter to me whether early Islam spread by the sword, by the word or both. What matter to me is that it contradicts Jesus’ gospel.
M
MissyB786
Guest
Crusades, KKK, Hitler I could also name a few but again why look at the people to represent the religion look at the scriptures and guidance God has provided.
You can perceive Islam as an aggressive religion, but if I had to give an example. Jewish people were persecuted and put to death during the history of Christianity, when Islam came they were given protection and rights to practice their own religion, provided they pay a tax. I was trying to find an article written in the guardian written somewhere called the Revival of Judaism in Islamic history, but still looking for the link written by a Non-Muslim, I am assuming Jewish, and says as a result of Islam Judaism managed to flourish.
If we r looking at history there is 2 sides to a story, and a lot of religous parties did wrong, Jewish people killing and persecuting prophets etc…
Hence I do not look at history but at the actual scriptures and founders of the religion, it’s like something I mentioned before **if I do something wrong blame me not my religion. **
You can perceive Islam as an aggressive religion, but if I had to give an example. Jewish people were persecuted and put to death during the history of Christianity, when Islam came they were given protection and rights to practice their own religion, provided they pay a tax. I was trying to find an article written in the guardian written somewhere called the Revival of Judaism in Islamic history, but still looking for the link written by a Non-Muslim, I am assuming Jewish, and says as a result of Islam Judaism managed to flourish.
If we r looking at history there is 2 sides to a story, and a lot of religous parties did wrong, Jewish people killing and persecuting prophets etc…
Hence I do not look at history but at the actual scriptures and founders of the religion, it’s like something I mentioned before **if I do something wrong blame me not my religion. **
F
FireFromHeaven
Guest
Exactly. Which is why I don’t think Muhammad is a prophet. His revelation just doesn’t hold water. For example he says he is prophesied in the OT and NT but only two verses are ever put forward and both are easily refuted.
N
nmgauss
Guest
Is it OK with you if Muslims believe that Muhammad was a prophet? If Christians believing in the Trinity are tolerated by Muslims, why can’t Christians tolerate Muslims believing that Muhammad was a prophet?
A
arabic_catholic
Guest
if you mean the islamic prophet muhammad , he is a myth that was created later ; 200 years - 300 after his death.
if you mean the historical muhammad , we don’t know a lot about him
therefore the answer would be : No
I discussed this matter with another fellow former muslim if you are interested
youtube.com/watch?v=0loJsDp2l0g
if you mean the historical muhammad , we don’t know a lot about him
therefore the answer would be : No
I discussed this matter with another fellow former muslim if you are interested
youtube.com/watch?v=0loJsDp2l0g
N
nmgauss
Guest
A lot more is known about Muhammad than about Jesus. A whole biography has been written about Muhammad. Evidence about Jesus is so fragmentary and was not written until 40 years after his death, that it is not reliable. The four Gospels differ so much that one is really not sure which is the most accurate. What’s more, the Jewish Wars against the Romans were happening at the same time the Gospels were written. That puts a slant on them.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Not so if you are considering the millions of biography on Jesus today.
What is a biography and how it is done anyway other than from the bits and pieces that are available to the biographists.
This accusation has been rebutted many times and what seems to be a contradiction actually is not. The Gospels were written from a personal witness or view of the author not very difference from a report according to what the authors saw and experienced.
The Jews as a nation was fighting with the Romans. The disciples had nothing to do with this. In fact some of them mistakenly thought that Jesus was a savior in the sense that he would save them from the Romans.
If you must use this line of argument, I think it is more appropriate applied to Mohammad who was indeed fighting to set up Islam.
A
arabic_catholic
Guest
It always amaze me how left wing people always bring elements to the discussion which are not talked about in my original post such as Jesus , gospels, and bla bla bla …
your statement is deadly Wrong !! Patricia Crone , from Oxford , an islamcist and historian stated the opposite . for in Jesus Case you have evidence from eyewitness , or at least short period of time … you stated 40 years
well the first biography about Muhammad was written 150 years after his death , and it was lost and saved in a redaction in 200 years after his death.
so the writings about jesus were what ? 40 years later, according to you ? the writings about muhammad were 150 to 200 years later … As crone observed , rightly , that its like writing the gospel of Mark by Justin maryer , and that work was edited and saved by Clement of alexandria … that is how reliable the Islamic prophet biography according to your standard
Moreover , a recent book by Oregonian Scholar stated the same fact
here is my summery of the book youtube.com/watch?v=kqVOoFUS7mU
now defend your position sir
A
arabic_catholic
Guest
it interesting that he brought the issue of the 4 gospels different accounts … this is very good for a historical studies since you have more than one source here, which help you to reconstruct Jesus life and distinguish what he said about what the community thought about him and so on… yet in islam … you have one source which was written 200 years later( and edited to remove non good stories that was mention by the original author) with what you should compare it ? yet this is , we are told by our friend , far more better from a historical point view.
K
KyivAndrew
Guest
I haven’t read the whole thread, yet, sorry, but the above claim is ridiculous. St. Paul’s Letters were already being written within some 18 years of the Crucifixion and when many eyewitnesses to Jesus’ life, like Peter for one and the apostles and the leaders of the Church in Jerusalem, were still quite alive and with whom St. Paul was in contact obviously. This was sometime before the Jewish War against Rome, which I’m not sure is important to the debate at hand.
Gospel of Mark - 50s A.D. I believe - again within the lifetime of witnesses to Jesus.
M
MartinJordan
Guest
If Islamic writers of bygone days, Mohammed or the Quran ever mentioned about the Jewish War against Rome then maybe it would be something to talk about.
MJ
R
Reuben_J
Guest
A good point there, arabic catholic.
The Gospels were written by the apostles/their disciples, only a single generation and who were eye-witnesses to Jesus. Their biographies, if we can count them as such, is more plausible.- Status