Could Muhammad of been a prophet?

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Ok, I’ve highlighted above, the first handful of quotes/references that you gave me, Judas, and not one of them says that Jesus is God.
Did I say “The quotes above clearly show that Jesus is God”? No, I expected you to know
that, but if you can’t find anything, I’ll at least give you John Chapter One. If you were read-
ing, I said that the verses I gave indicated the interaction between the Father, Son, & Holy
Spirit, showing how they interact with one another. I was responding to your challenge:
Hi Judas, can you tell me exactly where in the Bible you feel God is represented as 3 persons please.
All of them refer to Jesus having been sent from by the Father and having been instructed by the Father and is the mediator to the Father.
And I don’t think you looked at all of them, check all of them again.
Compare this to Islamic teaching on what a Prophet is:
…and what the Holy Spirit is:
…then I see no contradictions between the New Testament and the Quran at all 🙂
.
That doesn’t address the issue of 4:171 & 5:73, which contradict the revelation of the Bible.

Let me also add:
Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist,
who denieth the Father, and the Son.Whosoever denieth the Son, the same
hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also.
  • (1 John 2:22-23)
 
Did I say “The quotes above clearly show that Jesus is God”? No, I expected you to know
that, but if you can’t find anything, I’ll at least give you John Chapter One. If you were read-
ing, I said that the verses I gave indicated the interaction between the Father, Son, & Holy
Spirit, showing how they interact with one another. I was responding to your challenge:
Hi Judas, can you tell me exactly where in the Bible you feel God is represented as 3 persons please.

And I don’t think you looked at all of them, check all of them again.

That doesn’t address the issue of 4:171 & 5:73, which contradict the revelation of the Bible.

Let me also add:
Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist,
who denieth the Father, and the Son.Whosoever denieth the Son, the same
hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also.
  • (1 John 2:22-23)
Where in the Quran does it deny Jesus?

As I have already mentioned, the Quran says that Jesus was a Messenger, so did Jesus.

Jesus, says “I am a Messenger of the Father”
Muhammad says “Jesus was a Messenger of Allah”

Where is the denial of Jesus?
 
Servant 19 - Jesus also said “I and the Father are one”, and before Abraham was, I AM - the same way that God identified Himself to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

Jesus recognised Satan when he came to tempt, and Jesus sent him packing with Divine authority.

Muhammad was more easily fooled by Satan, hence the later ‘abrogated’ ‘Satanic Verses’ when Muhammad felt politically stronger and realised such a stance recognising and approving of certain polytheist deities [including ‘goddesses’] and their practices, no longer suited his purpose or agenda.
 
You ignored everything… honestly TheSufi, you’re not fair in discussions. I made many points, not just John 1 and that’s all you come up with?
How am I not fair?

Jesus never said he was God. Every quote that is used to prove that Jesus is/was God, there is an explanation for those verses.

The Thomas argument is weak, because the Greek is a translation of what was said, so we don’t know exactly what was said between Jesus and Thomas. There are many words for God in Hebrew. And these many words for God are translated as one word in Greek and English, El, Eloh, ,Elohim, all translated as God or Theos.
 
How am I not fair?

Jesus never said he was God. Every quote that is used to prove that Jesus is/was God, there is an explanation for those verses.

The Thomas argument is weak, because the Greek is a translation of what was said, so we don’t know exactly what was said between Jesus and Thomas. There are many words for God in Hebrew. And these many words for God are translated as one word in Greek and English, El, Eloh, ,Elohim, all translated as God or Theos.
So you’re saying Greek people who speak Greek can’t understand what is written? The Greek Orthodox Churches would have to be illiterate if this is true.

Thomas says, “The Lord of me and the God of me.” If Thomas was wrong, Jesus would not have followed with:

29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. "

Regardless, this was after Jesus resurrected and proved it which Muslims disregard anyways. So keeping this in mind this argument is a waste of time on Jesus’s divinity with Muslims. They’re mad to use John.
 
So you’re saying Greek people who speak Greek can’t understand what is written? The Greek Orthodox Churches are would have to be illiterate if this is true.

Thomas says, “The Lord of me and the God of me.” If Thomas was wrong, Jesus would not have followed with:

29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. "

Regardless, this was after Jesus resurrected and proved it which Muslims disregard anyways. So keeping this in mind this argument is a waste of time on Jesus’s divinity with Muslims. They’re mad to use John.
I studied with the Greek Orthodox, and I have taken many things into considerations.

But I don’t see those verses saying Jesus is God (El) or Thomas acknowledging Jesus as God (El).

I see those verses as Jesus saying he is Elohim (god) and Thomas acknowledging Jesus as Elohim (god).

This is completely consistent with Jewish belief.
So you’re saying Greek people who speak Greek can’t understand what is written? The Greek Orthodox Churches are would have to be illiterate if this is true.
I personally believe what lead the early church into believing Jesus was God, was their ignorance of Hebrew and Jewish Theology.

A combination of gentile converts to Christianity and ignorant Jewish converts of their own theology and the Hebrew language.
 
I studied with the Greek Orthodox, and I have taken many things into considerations.

But I don’t see those verses saying Jesus is God (El) or Thomas acknowledging Jesus as God (El).

I see those verses as Jesus saying he is Elohim (god) and Thomas acknowledging Jesus as Elohim (god).

This is completely consistent with Jewish belief.

I personally believe what lead the early church into believing Jesus was God, was their ignorance of Hebrew and Jewish Theology.

A combination of gentile converts to Christianity and ignorant Jewish converts of their own theology and the Hebrew language.
But you still must admit as a Muslim that the event never happened anyways.
 
But you still must admit as a Muslim that the event never happened anyways.
It is obvious that cruxificition means a lot to you. For me it is not a point worth discussing, nor do I see the importance of it. It not something I am going to convert to Christianity over.
 
It is obvious that cruxificition means a lot to you. For me it is not a point worth discussing, nor do I see the importance of it. It not something I am going to convert to Christianity over.
Well yes, it means a lot to all Christians. I understand your will to not discuss the crucifixion as Scripture cannot be used to deny it. It’s easy to twist and re-interpret Scripture to claim Jesus isn’t God. It’s also easy to believe conspiracy theories of the early Church Apostles and Church Father’s. What can’t be done is denial of the crucifixion.

1 corin 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

Of course it’s important to me. 🙂
 
How about both are true Tom 🙂

…an objective observation of what the purpose of religion is will testify to this fact.

God only reveals according to the capacity of the audience He reveals to…
They can’t both be true, either Jesus Is God-Incarnate or He isn’t.

I am not talking about religion or the purpose of religion, I am talking about whether or not God became One of us in the Person of Jesus.

Christianity is about God becoming One of us and doing what He did, islam is about coming along about 600 years later and saying it isn’t true but we claim Jesus as a prophet but not that God became Incarnate.

The Incarnation of Jesus is NOT the only thing concerning Jesus that the koran changes.
 
How am I not fair?

Jesus never said he was God. Every quote that is used to prove that Jesus is/was God, there is an explanation for those verses.

The Thomas argument is weak, because the Greek is a translation of what was said, so we don’t know exactly what was said between Jesus and Thomas. There are many words for God in Hebrew. And these many words for God are translated as one word in Greek and English, El, Eloh, ,Elohim, all translated as God or Theos.
What name does the father son and holy spirit have by which people are to be baptised? What is the name under which someone should be baptised?
 
…and what does the Bible say to be true about a true Prophet, Judas?
Well besides not standing
in opposition to Scripture,
try this on for size:
Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet fore-
telleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that
thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it
by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.
 
4:171 talks about Jesus being a Messenger of God.
Jesus says He was a Messenger of God in nearly all of the Bible references you gave.
A Messenger does the will of His Master:
“For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.”
A Messenger is SENT by His Master:
"I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”
Now 5:73 does not say anything about there NOT being a Holy Spirit, an Allah, and a Prophet, all separate entities, with Allah, the Father being the Head Honcho, which is what we were talking about, which you bizarrely denied, and somehow thought 5:73 was proof that your denial was justified…
Great, you recognize that 4:171 described Jesus as being a Messenger of God.
The some of the Bible verses I gave did say something similar, but we were not
talking quite about the samething, but forget that now, and let’s move on to the
biblical references to Jesus, though not being the Father, is the same God:
http://bibleprobe.com/jesus-is-God.htm
When surahs were brought up, we were
talking about how the Qur’an contradicts
the Bible. When the Biblical verses were
brought up, we were then talking about
how the Bible described the Trinity. I
hope we are on the same page now.
So you read how Jesus came to testify of the Father, that he
does what his Father who sent him wills, now hopefully if you
went to that link, you see how though being different persons,
Jesus and the Father are the same God.

Do you understand how 4:171 contradicts the true nature of Jesus now?

Let’s continue on to Qur’an 5:73…Ask any Muslim what it’s talking about and they will tell you
the same thing. It is urging people to deny the Triune Nature
of the One God. How did you miss that? Go back to when I
first gave those Quranic verses and you willl be reminded of
why I brought them up in the first place.
 
Where in the Quran does it deny Jesus?
As I have already mentioned, the Quran says that Jesus was a Messenger, so did Jesus.
Jesus, says “I am a Messenger of the Father”
Muhammad says “Jesus was a Messenger of Allah”
Where is the denial of Jesus?
But the Qur’an denies that Jesus is the Son of God and God himself, and that is what the
Apostle John demands of all who profess to believe in Jesus, Son of Mary, that he is also
of the same nature as his Father, God, thereby being God himself, as the Son of God.

Acknowledge Jesus? Super! Recognize him as the Son of the Father?
You have to accept the nature of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible.

It’s not about denying Jesus, it’s about denying WHO and WHAT Jesus is.
 
I studied with the Greek Orthodox, and I have taken many things into considerations.

But I don’t see those verses saying Jesus is God (El) or Thomas acknowledging Jesus as God (El).

I see those verses as Jesus saying he is Elohim (god) and Thomas acknowledging Jesus as Elohim (god).

This is completely consistent with Jewish belief.

**I personally believe what lead the early church into believing Jesus was God, was their ignorance of Hebrew and Jewish Theology.

A combination of gentile converts to Christianity and ignorant Jewish converts of their own theology and the Hebrew language.**
With all due respect, this argument lacks any objective merit. Jesus was a devout Jew. The twelve Apostles He chose–who accompanied Him throughout His public ministry, who personally witnessed the miracles he performed, his resurrection, and his ascension, and who authored ten books* of the New Testament, including two of the Gospels–were devout Jews. St. Paul, the author of 2/3 of the New Testament, was such a devout Jew that he originally approved of the execution of the first Christians (see Acts 8:1) and sought to destroy the Church (Acts 8:3) because he believed what they were preaching to be blasphemy. Also, it is widely agreed that Jesus, a devout Jew, taught and instructed the Apostles, all devout Jews, in Aramaic, a Semitic language closely related to Hebrew.

These Apostles–personal witnesses to Jesus’ ministry, resurrection, and ascension–were the ones who traveled the ancient world and founded the first churches. They then appointed as their successors to lead the churches when they left, men whom they had personally taught and instructed. Furthermore, they not only founded churches among gentile communities, they debated with rabbis and scholars of the Mosaic law in the synagogues to teach the truth of the Gospel to their Jewish brethren (see, e.g. Acts 17:1-4). Thus, of necessity they had to be learned in Hebrew and Jewish theology to effectively participate in such debates. Universally, the Apostles and their successors taught that Jesus was God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, who came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Blessed Virgin Mary; that for our salvation he suffered death on the cross and was buried; that he rose from the dead on the third day, ascended into heaven, and will come again in glory at the end of time to judge the living and the dead.

By way of example, Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of the Apostle John (the Apostle who was closest to Jesus while He was alive, and whom Jesus appointed to care for His mother Mary upon His death), wrote in 110 A.D., “For our God, Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb of Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Spirit.” (Letter to the Ephesians, 18) Ignatius explicitly identifies Jesus as God, yet distinguishes him from both God the Father and the Holy Spirit. This unequivocally shows a belief in the Trinity among the earliest Christians, who were taught by the Apostles themselves. By the way, Ignatius wrote the foregoing while on his way to Rome to be violently executed for these beliefs. Do you think that he (or any of the Apostles and the countless others martyred in Christianity’s first years) would willingly march to his death, a death he knew would be extremely violent and painful, if the idea that Jesus was God had come from his own ignorant and flawed understanding of Jewish theology? I know I don’t. Belief like that comes from something outside of yourself, something that gives you reason to have 100% certainty that you are right in your belief. I don’t know of any man that would be willing to die for something he is only 95% or even 99% sure is true.

Yes, there were a lot of gentile converts in the early church, but the foundational belief that Jesus is God came from men who were devout Jews, familiar with the Scriptures and Jewish theology.

*The ten books being the Gospels of Matthew (1) and John (2); the First (3) and Second (4) Epistles of Peter; the First (5), Second (6), and Third (7) Epistles of John; the Epistle of James (8); the Epistle of Jude (9); and the Revelation to John (10).
 
Servant 19 - Jesus also said “I and the Father are one”, and before Abraham was, I AM - the same way that God identified Himself to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

Jesus recognised Satan when he came to tempt, and Jesus sent him packing with Divine authority.

Muhammad was more easily fooled by Satan, hence the later ‘abrogated’ ‘Satanic Verses’ when Muhammad felt politically stronger and realised such a stance recognising and approving of certain polytheist deities [including ‘goddesses’] and their practices, no longer suited his purpose or agenda.
Yes this is correct Carmel, Jesus did say those things. When you are the most devout, loyal and perfect Messenger, giving us the Words of your Master without a letter out of place, then everyone who hears your Words see it as being the Words of your Master.

They are one, in the sense that He represented His Masters Message and Qualities perfectly, not that He is the Same Person literally…

Now in regards to existing before Abraham. What makes you think that an Almighty God could not create Beings that are timeless and eternal Beings?

.
 
They can’t both be true, either Jesus Is God-Incarnate or He isn’t.

I am not talking about religion or the purpose of religion, I am talking about whether or not God became One of us in the Person of Jesus.

Christianity is about God becoming One of us and doing what He did, islam is about coming along about 600 years later and saying it isn’t true but we claim Jesus as a prophet but not that God became Incarnate.

The Incarnation of Jesus is NOT the only thing concerning Jesus that the koran changes.
Hi Tom, when the purpose of religion is seen as to GUIDE a population out of the lethargic depths of ignorance, it is important that the Message of that religion strikes a fine balance between:
  1. catering for the needs a capacities of understanding of that population, and
  2. Providing small seeds of guidance, enabling the grace thus showered forth, to mature that small seed into a tree so it may reap goodly fruits.
So not too much, not too little, in terms of Gods guidance. So with this in mind, if you were God, how would you bring, the Jews in one era, and the Arabs in another era, given the climate of their thoughts and spiritual condition, out of their spiritual lethargy towards recognizing the one God?

Ponder and meditate on it a while, dear friend 🙂
 
…Now in regards to existing before Abraham. What makes you think that an Almighty God could not create Beings that are timeless and eternal Beings?
.
. . . ? :confused:
HUH?!

That cannot make any sense in any way. God alone is timeless. God alone is eternal.
Anything that is created is NOT eternal, NOT timeless, for that having been CREATED
exists AFTER its ETERNAL/TIMELESS Creator.

Now Jesus is eternal, mind you, as indicated in John 1:1, where in the Beginning,
the Word (later identified as Jesus) WAS, which in the Greek is a continual verb,
meaning that however far back you wish to push the Beginning, the Word had al-
ready existed. So Jesus existed before time, before creation, with God, AND the
Jesus the Word was God (or was Deity in nature, as better expressed in Greek).

All things were created by the Word (Jesus) and without him, nothing came to be
that has come to be, still talking about the Word, which if you read the Gospel of
John, is later called Jesus.

This is why we have the Bible, so we don’t run into these confusing issues.
 
How am I not fair?

Jesus never said he was God. Every quote that is used to prove that Jesus is/was God, there is an explanation for those verses.

The Thomas argument is weak, because the Greek is a translation of what was said, so we don’t know exactly what was said between Jesus and Thomas. There are many words for God in Hebrew. And these many words for God are translated as one word in Greek and English, El, Eloh, ,Elohim, all translated as God or Theos.
Ok, how about the ones I posted in post #671? What is your response/explanation to my argument there? Here it is again for your convenience:
40.png
SoMissCatholic:
40.png
TheSufi:
Jesus never said he was God
, nor were the Jews looking for God incarnate, nor do they believe God would incarnate.

John 10:30-34 In which the Jews specifically were against the idea of God being a man, during the time of Jesus.

God being a man is against the Old Testament (Number 23:19)

If you back up four verses from the ones you cite and read, it is clear that Jesus indeed indicates his divinity:
John 10:26-30:
But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life
, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.

Jesus first explicitly claims that he gives eternal life. He then further clarifies his divinity by showing that he and the Father are the same (“No one can take them out of my hand . . . . no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.”). He then explicitly declares that he and the Father are one. This is just one of many examples in the Gospels where Jesus proclaims his divinity. So it is not correct to claim that Jesus never said he was God, because in fact he did make this claim, and more than once.
 
Well besides not standing
in opposition to Scripture,
try this on for size:
Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet fore-
telleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that
thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it
by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him.
LOL!!

Come on Judas, be fair, for the sake of your love for God, a very basic study of the Bahai Faith will reveal that:

Abdu’l- Baha was not a Prophet!!!
Whatever compelled you to think that? Going to people’s blogs who do some research for you and cause you to stray from the path God wants you to go is not the best way to find God…

Look up prophecies of Baha’u’llah and get back to us all…

So, what else does the Bible say is true about true Prophets?
 
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