Could Muhammad of been a prophet?

  • Thread starter Thread starter YosefYosep
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Servant19 said:
Nope, no mention that Jesus is God here either brother 🙂
Click to expand...
What does Jesus say, and what do you think it means?

Qur’an 57:3 He who gives life and death; and he has power over all things. He is the first and the last, the evident and the hidden: and he has full knowledge of all things.

Isaiah 44:6"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Rev 1:17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18*and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive
 
Servant19 said:
Yes this is correct Carmel, Jesus did say those things. When you are the most devout, loyal and perfect Messenger, giving us the Words of your Master without a letter out of place, then everyone who hears your Words see it as being the Words of your Master.

They are one, in the sense that He represented His Masters Message and Qualities perfectly, not that He is the Same Person literally…

Now in regards to existing before Abraham. What makes you think that an Almighty God could not create Beings that are timeless and eternal Beings?

.
Click to expand...
Servant19, Christianity does not claim, nor has it ever claimed, that God the Father and God the Son, i.e. Jesus Christ, are literally the same person. In fact, Christianity teaches the opposite, that is, God the Father and Jesus are two separate and distinct persons. What Christianity does teach, however, is that Jesus is con-substantial (of the same substance) with the Father. In other words, Jesus and the Father are two different and distinct persons (with the Holy Spirit being a third separate and distinct person) but in their substance/their essence they are one and the same God. Christianity affirms that there is only ONE God, but that one God exists in three separate, co-eternal and co-equal persons. An image called the “Shield of the Trinity” has often been used to help visualize the relationship between the three persons of the Trinity:



Does this seem confusing? Irrational? Contradictory? Impossible? You be it does! That is why there have been numerous heresies regarding this issue that have cropped up from time to time throughout the history of the Church. The Trinity is practically inconceivable to our limited human minds. Therefore, in order to make sense of it, different people have come along at different times and tried to define the nature of/relationship between, or other aspect of one or more of the Persons of the Trinity in a way that makes more logical sense to us. This definition invariably reduces God to something less than he is: One God eternally and everywhere existing in three separate, distinct persons, each of which is fully God.

The question I ask though–and I ask you to ask yourself this question also–is this: is the fact that the triune nature of God is very hard for us to understand surprising? Should we expect God, who is infinitely far above us, to be easy for our lowly human minds to grasp? I answer No, a thousand times No! Indeed, we should expect there to be mysteries–things we could never logically or rationally conclude relying on our own reasoning and that can only be divinely revealed to us–when it comes to God, the Creator of all things, the First and the Last.
 
dronald said:
What does Jesus say, and what do you think it means?

Qur’an 57:3 He who gives life and death; and he has power over all things. He is the first and the last, the evident and the hidden: and he has full knowledge of all things.

Isaiah 44:6"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Rev 1:17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18*and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive
Click to expand...
What do I think all this means?

Whoever Jesus was, we have His Word that the Father is greater. Who is the Father?
“This is the Day whereon human ears have been privileged to hear what He Who conversed with God (Moses) heard upon Sinai, what He Who is the Friend of God (Muhammad) heard when lifted up towards Him, what He Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus) heard as He ascended unto Him, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Baha’u’llah
Click to expand...
"He, verily, is come with His Kingdom, and all the atoms cry aloud: “Lo! The Lord is come in His great majesty!” He Who is the Father is come, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: “Here am I, here am I, O Lord, My God!”, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: “The All-Bounteous is come mounted upon the clouds! Blessed is he that draweth nigh unto Him, and woe betide them that are far away.” - Baha’u’llah -Tablet to Czar Alexander
Click to expand...
"This is the day whereon the Rock crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!” - Baha’u’llah - Tablet to Pope Pius IX
Click to expand...
“He it is (Baha’u’llah)…Who in the Old Testament hath been named Jehovah, Who in the Gospel hath been designated as the Spirit of Truth, and in the Qur’án acclaimed as the Great Announcement…But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the robe of prophethood, nor would any of the sacred scriptures have been revealed. To this bear witness all created things.”
Click to expand...
Thats what I think this means…🙂
 
Servant19 said:
It was Jesus’s job to SAY everything, and if He was God, He would’ve said it, AND He would’ve been quoted

.
Click to expand...
The Apostle John wrote it, therefore it is likely that Jesus taught it, but even
if he didn’t verbally whilst still upon the Earth, remember the words of Jesus
WHICH WERE QUOTED:
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my
name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind,
whatsoever I shall have said to you.
  • (John 14:26)
    (Also another clue to Trinity)
    ​
    What is Truth? How do we tell what Truth is? We have a measuring rod, you do not.
 
Servant19 said:
Baptism is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I would give up my life for all of those things, but nowhere does it say that Jesus is God
Click to expand...
Alright, let’s try this:Thus saith the YHWH the King of Israel, and his Redeemer
the YHWH of hosts: I am the First, and I am the Last, and
besides me there is no God.
  • (Isaiah 44:6)
    Isaiah is talking about God here, Allah, The God, whose name is YHWH.
    Now let’s see see what the Book of the Revelation of Saint John says:When I saw him (speaking of Jesus), I fell at his feet as though dead.
    But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the First
    and the Last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forev-
    ermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
  • (Revelation 1:17-18)
    Jesus speaks again as John writes:I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First
    and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
  • (Revelation 22:13)
    DO YOU GET IT NOW?! JESUS IS THE CREATOR, GOD HIMSELF!
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
I already told you: bibleprobe.com/jesus-is-God.htm

What justification? THE BIBLE
The Word of God

Patripassionism? When did Christianity ever fully accept Patripassionism?
That was a heresy which developed in Early Christianity
and was condemned as heresy BY Early Christianity. :ehh:
Click to expand...
So bibleprobe.com is the same as the Bible itself now???

There is not a single quote from the Bible in that web link that says Jesus is God
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Alright, let’s try this:Thus saith the YHWH the King of Israel, and his Redeemer
the YHWH of hosts: I am the First, and I am the Last, and
besides me there is no God.
  • (Isaiah 44:6)
    Isaiah is talking about God here, Allah, The God, whose name is YHWH.
    Now let’s see see what the Book of the Revelation of Saint John says:When I saw him (speaking of Jesus), I fell at his feet as though dead.
    But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the First
    and the Last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forev-
    ermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
  • (Revelation 1:17-18)
    Jesus speaks again as John writes:I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First
    and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
  • (Revelation 22:13)
    DO YOU GET IT NOW?! JESUS IS THE CREATOR, GOD HIMSELF!
Click to expand...
Yes, as I say, how do you know that it is not YHWH speaking THROUGH Jesus. Jesus as the Mediator, as the Messenger as He Himself declared on so many occasions.

YHWH, the Father is the First and the Last. Jesus does not speak His own Words, but the Words of His Father, who sent Him

Why is this so complicated friend?
 
Servant19 said:
What do I think all this means?

Whoever Jesus was, we have His Word that the Father is greater. Who is the Father?

Thats what I think this means…🙂
Click to expand...
Can you put that in your words please? I quoted the Qur’an, the Tanakh and Revelation showing that Jesus gives Himself a title that only can belong to God. Please answer how you reconcile these things in your words.
 
dronald said:
Can you put that in your words please? I quoted the Qur’an, the Tanakh and Revelation showing that Jesus gives Himself a title that only can belong to God. Please answer how you reconcile these things in your words.
Click to expand...
Ok 🙂

My humble understanding is that the Father speaks THROUGH Jesus.

When Jesus says “I am” it is actually the Father saying “I am”

These are not His Words, but the Words of my Father who sent me…
 
Servant19 said:
So bibleprobe.com is the same as the Bible itself now???

There is not a single quote from the Bible in that web link that says Jesus is God
Click to expand...
Did you miss the Gospel of John references?

How about Philippians, did you miss that too?

Try this instead, take the references and read them in the Bible in their fuller
context, such as in the chapter or the whole book (in the Bible) if needed.

And NO, bibleprobe.com did not become the Bible itself, but quotes from the Bible.
You’re not being an idiot, I know that, and know that you do know better than that.
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Did you miss the Gospel of John references?

How about Philippians, did you miss that too?

Try this instead, take the references and read them in the Bible in their fuller
context, such as in the chapter or the whole book (in the Bible) if needed.

And NO, bibleprobe.com did not become the Bible itself, but quotes from the Bible.
You’re not being an idiot, I know that, and know that you do know better than that.
Click to expand...
No I didn’t miss anything friend.

Philippians talks about Jesus being EQUAL with God, which I agree with, just as He is ONE with the Father.

He is the PERFECT Messenger and Representative for human minds to even contemplate fathoming
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Did you miss the Gospel of John references?

How about Philippians, did you miss that too?

Try this instead, take the references and read them in the Bible in their fuller
context, such as in the chapter or the whole book (in the Bible) if needed.

And NO, bibleprobe.com did not become the Bible itself, but quotes from the Bible.
You’re not being an idiot, I know that, and know that you do know better than that.
Click to expand...
I am definitely pretty dumb 🙂

I require educating, and I am always willing to learn, but as I mentioned before, if there is a quote you wish to explore with me to enhance my learning, please provide it dear friend 🙂
 
Servant19 said:
Yes, as I say, how do you know that it is not YHWH speaking THROUGH Jesus. Jesus as the Mediator, as the Messenger as He Himself declared on so many occasions.

YHWH, the Father is the First and the Last. Jesus does not speak His own Words, but the Words of His Father, who sent Him

Why is this so complicated friend?
Click to expand...
If we go back to Revelation 1:
When I saw him (speaking of Jesus), I fell at his feet as though dead.
But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the First
and the Last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive for–
evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
  • (Revelation 1:17-18)
    If the Father doesn’t want to confuse us, why would he speak through Jesus
    and let Jesus carry on the sentence by himself? You are refusing to acknow-
    ledge the context.
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
If we go back to Revelation 1:
When I saw him (speaking of Jesus), I fell at his feet as though dead.
But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the First
and the Last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive for–
evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
  • (Revelation 1:17-18)
    If the Father doesn’t want to confuse us, why would he speak through Jesus
    and let Jesus carry on the sentence by himself? You are refusing to acknow-
    ledge the context.
Click to expand...
I would explore the NATURE of God and the NATURE of the human form for your answer 🙂
 
Servant19 said:
Ok 🙂

My humble understanding is that the Father speaks THROUGH Jesus.

When Jesus says “I am” it is actually the Father saying “I am”

These are not His Words, but the Words of my Father who sent me…
Click to expand...
I’m sorry, but you’re still completely missing what I’ve posted. Let’s start again my friend:

Qur’an 57:3 He who gives life and death; and he has power over all things. He is the first and the last, the evident and the hidden: and he has full knowledge of all things.

Isaiah 44:6"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
**'I am the first and I am the last, **
And there is no God besides Me.

Rev 1:17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, **"Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18*and the living One; and I was dead, **and behold, I am alive

Revelation clearly speaks of Jesus saying He is the first and the last, was dead and is now alive. He took the title of, “The first and the last” can you please explain in your own words why He would do such a thing if that title only belongs to God?
 
Servant19 said:
Yes, as I say, how do you know that it is not YHWH speaking THROUGH Jesus. Jesus as the Mediator, as the Messenger as He Himself declared on so many occasions.

YHWH, the Father is the First and the Last. Jesus does not speak His own Words, but the Words of His Father, who sent Him

Why is this so complicated friend?
Click to expand...
We know it is not YHWH speaking through Jesus because YHWH spoke through the prophets, messengers of YHWH, for hundreds of years in the Old Testament and they always preface YHWH’s words with something to the effect of “Thus sayeth the LORD (YHWH),” and clearly indicate that YHWH is speaking. For example, see Judas Thadeus’s quote from Isaiah. Jesus on the other hand never makes such a statement. Rather, he flat out says “I am the First and the Last.” If God communicated through the prophets for hundreds of years one way, why would He all of a sudden change course and start communicating differently? The answer is he wouldn’t unless something else was different that made this time unique. That “something else” is Jesus. He does not preface his words with “thus sayeth the LORD” because he IS the LORD. He is qualitatively different than all of the prophets/messengers that came before him.

Also if YHWH is simply speaking through Jesus, why does Jesus make a distinction between himself and the Father when he says:

My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” (John 10:27-30 NABRE)

This passage makes no sense if YHWH is simply speaking His words through Jesus.
 
SoMissCatholic said:
We know it is not YHWH speaking through Jesus because YHWH spoke through the prophets, messengers of YHWH, for hundreds of years in the Old Testament and they always preface YHWH’s words with something to the effect of “Thus sayeth the LORD (YHWH),” and clearly indicate that YHWH is speaking. For example, see Judas Thadeus’s quote from Isaiah. Jesus on the other hand never makes such a statement. Rather, he flat out says “I am the First and the Last.” If God communicated through the prophets for hundreds of years one way, why would He all of a sudden change course and start communicating differently? The answer is he wouldn’t unless something else was different that made this time unique. That “something else” is Jesus. He does not preface his words with “thus sayeth the LORD” because he IS the LORD. He is qualitatively different than all of the prophets/messengers that came before him.

Also if YHWH is simply speaking through Jesus, why does Jesus make a distinction between himself and the Father when he says:

My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” (John 10:27-30 NABRE)

This passage makes no sense if YHWH is simply speaking His words through Jesus.
Click to expand...
Until it comes to the part where Jesus says “The Father is greater than I”, and

. “John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do…”

and Mark 10:18:

. “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”

. So the Jesus is “the Son” because He does the will of the Father, and not His own will.

. This piece of glass is “the Mirror” because it reflects the Sunlight perfectly. It does not generate the light, of its own will…

.
 
daler said:
Until it comes to the part where Jesus says “The Father is greater than I”, and

. “John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do…”

and Mark 10:18:

. “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”

. So the Jesus is “the Son” because He does the will of the Father, and not His own will.

. This piece of glass is “the Mirror” because it reflects the Sunlight perfectly. It does not generate the light, of its own will…

.
Click to expand...
Lets read these verses in light of others. Lets examine one verse at a time.

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of** your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

Jesus Christ has the name of God, the name by which has power to protect. it should be obvious what this name is. Did Muhammad claim to have the Tetragrammaton as his name?**
 
SoMissCatholic said:
We know it is not YHWH speaking through Jesus because YHWH spoke through the prophets, messengers of YHWH, for hundreds of years in the Old Testament and they always preface YHWH’s words with something to the effect of “Thus sayeth the LORD (YHWH),” and clearly indicate that YHWH is speaking. For example, see Judas Thadeus’s quote from Isaiah. Jesus on the other hand never makes such a statement. Rather, he flat out says “I am the First and the Last.” If God communicated through the prophets for hundreds of years one way, why would He all of a sudden change course and start communicating differently? The answer is he wouldn’t unless something else was different that made this time unique. That “something else” is Jesus. He does not preface his words with “thus sayeth the LORD” because he IS the LORD. He is qualitatively different than all of the prophets/messengers that came before him.

Also if YHWH is simply speaking through Jesus, why does Jesus make a distinction between himself and the Father when he says:

My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” (John 10:27-30 NABRE)

This passage makes no sense if YHWH is simply speaking His words through Jesus.
Click to expand...
Thank you Miss 🙂

Yes, you are correct Jesus never said “The Lord sayeth…” Etc etc

Jesus made the foundational statement that the Words He speaks are not His, but the Words of the Father.

These things cannot be discounted

We need to be servants of God, not servants of doctrine, don’t you think?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top