Could Not be Saved?

[CMatt25]

" Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Do these words in your CCC mean they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of can not. Or do they mean might not. If the latter, why didn’t the writiers simply say that?

 

[speedy779]

Do these words in your CCC mean they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of can not. Or do they mean might not. If the latter, why didn’t the writiers simply say that?

Remember, ancient accent.
You see Jesus died for all are sins, but you have to accept this to be saved. However even though you may believe in Jesus Christ as savior that doesn’t mean you’ll get into heaven.

“For you see man is judged by works and not by faith alone”
-James 2:24

James clearly states that in order to get into Heaven you must also do good works.

Hope this answered your question
Take Care and
God Bless.

 

[bz5]

" Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Do these words in your CCC mean they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of can not. Or do they mean might not. If the latter, why didn’t the writiers simply say that?

Yes, it means the former. We believe all Christians are, by virtue of their baptism, in the Catholic church, though clearly not in full communion. We also believe in baptism of desire - if someone, through no fault of his own, does not understand the necessity of being baptized, but follows God as he believes is true - then Jesus may save him at the end of his life. The reference you make to the catechism is referring to people who know their obligation to follow Jesus’ church and just refuse.

 

[CMatt25]

Remember, ancient accent.
You see Jesus died for all are sins, but you have to accept this to be saved. However even though you may believe in Jesus Christ as savior that doesn’t mean you’ll get into heaven.

“For you see man is judged by works and not by faith alone”
-James 2:24

James clearly states that in order to get into Heaven you must also do good works.

Hope this answered your question
Take Care and
God Bless.

Thank you for trying but well not completely. I understand the righteous serve Him and show their love and faith by their good works. The latter part of Chapter 25 of St Matthew’s Gospel where Christ speaks to us about things we can do and how by doing these things for Christ, obtains for us eternal life, is one of my favorite parts of Scripture.

Here’s what I don’t get about the CCC words I posted.

If someone was properly catechized, informed at one time and was a Catholic believer… Fully and knowingly believed the Catholic Church was necessary. But then later in life experienced a change in beliefs. If the Catechism as written, is then judging that this person can not be saved? Or only that they might not be?

And if it’s that they only might not be, why not phrase it that way? Because “could not” sounds like can not since it is in tense a version of “can not”

You take care as well and God bless you too!

 

[speedy779]

If someone was properly catechized, informed at one time and was a Catholic believer… Fully and knowingly believed the Catholic Church was necessary. But then later in life experienced a change in beliefs. If the Catechism as written, is then judging that this person can not be saved? Or only that they might not be?

O sorry
Well here’s my opinion. Where do you Think Martin Luther is?
Was he not a baptized Catholic? Was he not confirmed Catholic? Was he not a catholic Priest?
Martin Luther was a great Catholic. Until he went bad and went astray from sound Doctrine.
How about this did this help ya out.
God Bless.

 

[po18guy]

Thank you for trying but well not completely. I understand the righteous serve Him and show their love and faith by their good works. The latter part of Chapter 25 of St Matthew’s Gospel where Christ speaks to us about things we can do and how by doing these things for Christ, obtains for us eternal life, is one of my favorite parts of Scripture.

Here’s what I don’t get about the CCC words I posted.

If someone was properly catechized, informed at one time and was a Catholic believer… Fully and knowingly believed the Catholic Church was necessary. But then later in life experienced a change in beliefs. If the Catechism as written, is then judging that this person can not be saved? Or only that they might not be?

And if it’s that they only might not be, why not phrase it that way? Because “could not” sounds like can not since it is in tense a version of “can not”

You take care as well and God bless you too!

A “change in beliefs” is not morally neutral, nor is it without cost.

2 Peter 2:20-22
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them.For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[CMatt25]

O sorry
Well here’s my opinion. Where do you Think Martin Luther is?
Was he not a baptized Catholic? Was he not confirmed Catholic? Was he not a catholic Priest?
Martin Luther was a great Catholic. Until he went bad and went astray from sound Doctrine.
How about this did this help ya out.
God Bless.

I have no idea where he is and I’m not about to judge where he is… So no. Again you did not help me out.

 

[silicasandra]

Thank you for trying but well not completely. I understand the righteous serve Him and show their love and faith by their good works. The latter part of Chapter 25 of St Matthew’s Gospel where Christ speaks to us about things we can do and how by doing these things for Christ, obtains for us eternal life, is one of my favorite parts of Scripture.

Here’s what I don’t get about the CCC words I posted.

If someone was properly catechized, informed at one time and was a Catholic believer… Fully and knowingly believed the Catholic Church was necessary. But then later in life experienced a change in beliefs. If the Catechism as written, is then judging that this person can not be saved? Or only that they might not be?

And if it’s that they only might not be, why not phrase it that way? Because “could not” sounds like can not since it is in tense a version of “can not”

You take care as well and God bless you too!

We can never definitively say whether a person will be saved or not. The only people we know for sure have been saved are canonized saints.

All things are possible with God. A person may have a change of heart right before the moment of death, and this might be sufficient even if they do not receive the Sacraments. But we have no way of knowing this until we (hopefully) join them in Heaven. In the meantime, we pray.

(To more directly answer the question: only that they might not be saved.)

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I think it means what it says: Hence they could not be saved who, **knowing **that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." I think the key to this is that they reject the Church while knowing it was founded as necessary by God through Christ. The people you describe in the earlier post who have a change in belief do not know this. They are following their conscience (poorly formed or educated perhaps) and in many cases they leave because they begin to think the opposite— God could not have founded this Church as necessary.

I think that this CCC section is talking about willful disobedience to God. A person knows that God founded the Church through Christ, they know the grace received through the Church is life-giving, yet they reject the Church because they want their own way.

 

[CMatt25]

I think it means what it says: Hence they could not be saved who, **knowing **that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." I think the key to this is that they reject the Church while knowing it was founded as necessary by God through Christ. The people you describe in the earlier post who have a change in belief do not know this. They are following their conscience (poorly formed or educated perhaps) and in many cases they leave because they begin to think the opposite— God could not have founded this Church as necessary.

I think that this CCC section is talking about willful disobedience to God. A person knows that God founded the Church through Christ, they know the grace received through the Church is life-giving, yet they reject the Church because they want their own way.

I take it you don’t believe a person could have at one time been properly catechized and held the belief that the Catholic Church is necessary, but then later in life came to believe differently.

 

[CMatt25]

We can never definitively say whether a person will be saved or not. The only people we know for sure have been saved are canonized saints.

All things are possible with God. A person may have a change of heart right before the moment of death, and this might be sufficient even if they do not receive the Sacraments. But we have no way of knowing this until we (hopefully) join them in Heaven. In the meantime, we pray.

(To more directly answer the question: only that they might not be saved.)

Silicasandra, thank you. Your answer has helped me the most and I hope your answer is the Catholic Church’s. God bless you in your journey.

 

[adrift]

" Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Do these words in your CCC mean they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of can not. Or do they mean might not. If the latter, why didn’t the writiers simply say that?

Yes it is a tense of can, the past tense. I am assuming that they died with their choice. That is why it is put in the past. I believe that the Church is speaking of their judgment. After you die, you could no longer make a different choice.

 

[CMatt25]

Thanks everyone but I’ve reread all the posts and now I am only more confused. I have people saying it means the former. I have someone saying it means they might not be.

 

[HisLamb]

I take it you don’t believe a person could have at one time been properly catechized and held the belief that the Catholic Church is necessary, but then later in life came to believe differently.

No, not at all. To be honest, though, I’ve talked to a lot of former Catholics who were not catechized properly. However, even those who were properly catechized sometimes acquire new information or have an experience in life or in the Church which convinces them that what they learned previously was wrong. For example, take the current priestly scandal that has caused at least some Catholics to leave the Church. Let’s assume they were properly catechized. But, they think of the Scripture “by their fruits you shall know” and they think, “well, the Church has produced this bad fruit, maybe everything I was taught was a lie”. I’m not saying it is right to leave the Church for these reasons, but that it is possible to have been educated but have something happen which changes your opinion about what you learned. I am also saying that I do not believe these situations are what the CCC is talking about in that paragraph. I believe that paragraph is targeted for those who know that God has established in the Church through Jesus Christ and still reject it.

Remember, the kind of sin that severs us from God is what we call a mortal sin. To commit a mortal sin one must have full knowledge, complete consent and it must be a grave matter. I think what the CCC was saying is that the sin of knowingly and willingly turning your back on the Church is such a sin. However, as with all sin we can still repent. I do not believe that the CCC is implying that one cannot repent of that sin. Only that if we die with this (or any) mortal sin, we are not saved.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I take it you don’t believe a person could have at one time been properly catechized and held the belief that the Catholic Church is necessary, but then later in life came to believe differently.

No, quite the contrary. It’s happening now (although to be honest, I feel that many who leave are not catechized properly). There are people out there who were catechized properly but let’s say they read about the priestly scandal and they think “by their fruits you shall know them” and then they think “maybe everything I learned from the Church is a lie”. They have an experience or acquire new knowledge that convinces them that what they learned was wrong. I’m not saying it is right that they leave, but that it is possible to change your mind about what you were taught. This is not, in my opinion, what the Church is talking about in that paragraph. I think that paragraph is specifically talking about a willful disobedience to God.

The Church teaches us that there is such a sin that severs us from our relationship from God. If we commit a mortal sin and do not repent before we die we could not, should not, will not be saved. However, there are three requirements in order for a sin to be mortal. It must be committed with full knowledge, complete consent and it must be a grave matter. The paragraph you cited describes such a situation. The CCC is not implying that one cannot repent of this sin. So, when it says they could not be saved it simply means they could not be saved if they die without repentance.

 

[adrift]

Thanks everyone but I’ve reread all the posts and now I am only more confused. I have people saying it means the former. I have someone saying it means they might not be.

Do these words in your CCC mean they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of can not. Or do they mean might not. If the latter, why didn’t the writiers simply say that?

It does not mean they cannot be saved. Could not be saved is pass tense meaning it has already happened. They died unrepentant and out of the grace of God. They could have made another choice they did not. As another has rightly pointed out the judgement is God’s. He would know if they rejected Him by not belonging to His Church when they Know it is His Church.

 

[fhansen]

Thank you for trying but well not completely. I understand the righteous serve Him and show their love and faith by their good works. The latter part of Chapter 25 of St Matthew’s Gospel where Christ speaks to us about things we can do and how by doing these things for Christ, obtains for us eternal life, is one of my favorite parts of Scripture.

Here’s what I don’t get about the CCC words I posted.

If someone was properly catechized, informed at one time and was a Catholic believer… Fully and knowingly believed the Catholic Church was necessary. But then later in life experienced a change in beliefs. If the Catechism as written, is then judging that this person can not be saved? Or only that they might not be?

And if it’s that they only might not be, why not phrase it that way? Because “could not” sounds like can not since it is in tense a version of “can not”

You take care as well and God bless you too!

I think it’s just saying that culpability is tied to our knowledge-what we* know* to be true. Being catechized and saying you know the teachings are true doesn’t necessarily mean that you really do know them to be true. As a child, especially, or even as an adult, one can be parroting what they’ve been told they’re* supposed* to believe. And the Church teaches we’re not to go against our own consciences-we can’t* force* ourselves to believe anything.

 

[CMatt25]

No, quite the contrary. It’s happening now (although to be honest, I feel that many who leave are not catechized properly). There are people out there who were catechized properly but let’s say they read about the priestly scandal and they think “by their fruits you shall know them” and then they think “maybe everything I learned from the Church is a lie”. They have an experience or acquire new knowledge that convinces them that what they learned was wrong. I’m not saying it is right that they leave, but that it is possible to change your mind about what you were taught. This is not, in my opinion, what the Church is talking about in that paragraph. I think that paragraph is specifically talking about a willful disobedience to God.

The Church teaches us that there is such a sin that severs us from our relationship from God. If we commit a mortal sin and do not repent before we die we could not, should not, will not be saved. However, there are three requirements in order for a sin to be mortal. It must be committed with full knowledge, complete consent and it must be a grave matter. The paragraph you cited describes such a situation. The CCC is not implying that one cannot repent of this sin. So, when it says they could not be saved it simply means they could not be saved if they die without repentance.

Prayer Warrior, so are you saying if such a person as I’ve described no longer believes or consents that a sin is mortal, the CCC section does not apply to them?

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, it means the former. We believe all Christians are, by virtue of their baptism, in the Catholic church, though clearly not in full communion. We also believe in baptism of desire - if someone, through no fault of his own, does not understand the necessity of being baptized, but follows God as he believes is true - then Jesus may save him at the end of his life. The reference you make to the catechism is referring to people who know their obligation to follow Jesus’ church and just refuse.

So if someone once believed and knew the Church was necessary but no longer does and they leave, the section does not apply to them? And they could be saved?

 

[TimothyH]

" Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Do these words in your CCC mean they can not be saved since “could not” is a tense of can not. Or do they mean might not. If the latter, why didn’t the writiers simply say that?

It means exactly what it says, “Could not.” Notice that it is past tense.

One cannot understand a sentance which starts with “Hence” unless one also understands that which comes prior and to which “Hence” refers.

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

**846 **How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (Note 336)

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

If the believer could not be saved if they “would refuse either to enter it [the Church] or to remain in it.” It is the believer’s refusal of what is previously stated (hence), that faith and baptism are required for salvation, which created the conditions whereby they could not be saved. It is the believer who made it impossible for himself to be saved. If the believer had stopped refusing to enter the Church, he “Might have” reversed that situation and he “Could have” been saved.

-Tim-