F
fermat
Guest
This is the same site that says that Catholics are not Christian.
- Status
F
fermat
Guest
This is slightly off thread (maybe not), but in my discussions with my LDS brothers and sisters, the topic of ‘The Great Apostasy’ always comes up. Being a member of the original Christian church, I have always wanted to know what it the Church taught that was the apostasy that kick separated us from Christ.
What was it?
Much of my wifes family is LDS and I always have wanted to ask, but family being family, I didn’t was to say something to accidentally give offense. This is a safe place.
.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
I have a good friend who for 8 months told me she was just christian…but no, she was Mormon… So I backed away from her craziness but she is really good to me - perhaps it is because I am prodestent and not as hard to brainwash as a catholic because catholics are taught more from the bible (?)This is slightly off thread (maybe not), but in my discussions with my LDS brothers and sisters, the topic of ‘The Great Apostasy’ always comes up. Being a member of the original Christian church, I have always wanted to know what it the Church taught that was the apostasy that kick separated us from Christ.
What was it?
Much of my wifes family is LDS and I always have wanted to ask, but family being family, I didn’t was to say something to accidentally give offense. This is a safe place.
Anyway she keeps encouraging me to come to her mormon church & temple. I want to go with her, but I don’t want to be badgered about the book of mormon which is obviously crazed.
Mormon’s are a cult. Period. Your not christian, your not catholic…your crazy!
Joseph Smith…? I don’t think so!
I’d rather worship Mary like a God then believe in the 12 living apostles that the mormons claim to have!
Also can a catholic please tell me if it would be sin to enter a mormon temple?
Z
Zundrah
Guest
You just said, “the living prophets today who are a continuation of that authority” - well, exuse me but isn’t the pope doing that? We never needed “Joseph Smith”, because we already have a church that is fine!Good afternoon datamonkey! It is nice to meet you. I hope you are doing well today.
It’s a good idea for anyone, ever, to stop and think about the decisions they are making. I don’t discourage anyone to study the history of Joseph Smith and I certainly would want them to gain a real and lasting testimony before accepting him as a prophet.
Perhaps the reason why we can’t think of any biblical prophet with “such a dubious background” is because we just don’t have anywhere near the amount of historical data for ancient prophets as we do for Joseph Smith. The historical challenge for Biblical prophets isn’t necessarily their background, but rather if they existed at all, because we simply don’t have the type of data for them as we do for Joseph Smith. Personally, I don’t doubt the Biblical prophets or their prophetic callings, but this is due to faith, pure and simple. So, although the substance of the challenge is different, the principle is the same; It is a challenge of faith and each individual choses to have faith or not.
No man or prophet, who has ever lived, has been without their flaws and weaknesses. I’ve applied the same type of questions you ask about Joseph Smith to myself in my own life, and my own callings at church (knowing my own flaws and my own history I am constantly baffled that God would trust me with anything). I can imagine Paul in the New Testament facing many of the same questions and doubts from those who knew his history of actively persecuting the early Christians. Did some people reject Moses because they knew he had killed an eqyptian? Was there some who doubted Abraham because he lied and was even going to go through with sacrificing his only child (I wonder how well that whole episode would go over in our modern society)? Even Jesus Christ was doubted because of his history and background. If we were to rely on the testimony of Jesus’ neighbors, we would think that he was only the son of a carpenter, and not the actual Son of God.
The historical record on Joseph Smith’s life shows a man, with flaws, who made mistakes, who committed sin, and who needed the Savior’s atonement. At times he made poor financial and business decisions. He had grand ideas that didn’t always work out. Sometimes he lost his temper. In short, he was a man. But, the historical recorded also shows that Joseph Smith was no huckster nor was he a charlatan. I’ve no question of his moral character. And I’ve no question of his prophetic calling. Inspite of the flaws and mistakes, I see God’s hand guiding a man to bring about wonderful truths and establish, whether you believe in it’s authenticity or not, a church that has grown out of obscurity, despite a myriad of trials and persecustions heeped upon it, and that is now respected worldwide because of the good that it does and the morals that it espouses.
Your questions presupposes a man of questionable moral character. I reject your presuppositions. Knowing what I know about Joseph Smith today, in a sense I have already chosen to follow him as a true prophet of the Most High God, by following the living prophets today who are a continuation of that authority that was restored through Joseph Smith.
Kind Regards,
Finrock
Answer me this - what has Joseph Smith done for me or any of the catholics on this site? Nothing, obviously, he was uneccesary and fictional. Maybe he believed - but was delusional. But if I believed I was Jesus, would that belief alone make me right? Hmm…
Book of Mormon…burn it!
:nunchuk::takethat:Book of Mormon = Lies!
Joseph Smith = Fantasist!
Mormons = Blasphemers!
Why = because you refuse just to accept the salvation that was already there. You chased other things and followed other prophets! You are blasphemers.
Why?
Seriously…I think I just went a bit over board…
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
I don’t know if it would be a sin, per se, but I wouldn’t do it.
While it is alright for Catholics to attend some Protestant services (depending on motive and one’s intent, i.e. weddings), we are not allowed to take part in their communion. Mormons aren’t even Christian, so they can’t even be called “Protestant.”
I noticed you said you were a Protestant and you know that Mormons aren’t Christian. Knowing that, why would you consider going with your friend to a Mormon temple? If you’re wanting to look into other Christian faiths, check out the Catholic church. Seriously.
We have different rites and Churches that can appeal to all types of personal preferences. 
(bolded red emphasis mine)You just said, “the living prophets today who are a continuation of that authority” - well, exuse me but isn’t the pope doing that? We never needed “Joseph Smith”, because we already have a church that is fine!
Answer me this - what has Joseph Smith done for me or any of the catholics on this site? Nothing, obviously, he was uneccesary and fictional. Maybe he believed - but was delusional. But if I believed I was Jesus, would that belief alone make me right? Hmm…
Book of Mormon…burn it!
Book of Mormon = Lies!
Joseph Smith = Fantasist!
Mormons = Blasphemers!
Why = because you refuse just to accept the salvation that was already there. You chased other things and followed other prophets! You are blasphemers.
Why?
Seriously…I think I just went a bit over board…
You make an excellent point. While it is my undertanding that Catholics view the Pope as Christ’s vicar on earth, I wouldn’t say he was a prophet, though.
But you’re right in that we never needed Joseph Smith. Simply because of Jesus Christ.
C
CJ_Nick
Guest
No, he could not have been a true prophet from God.
In my brief study of the LDS Religion, I would guess he certainly may have believed he was ( like many many others have before and after him ) but his teachings, practices, and indeed direct contradictions and additions to what the Lord taught ( as well as what we find in the O and N Testament ) is enormous evidence, IMHO, that he is simply one of many who made things up and lead many away from the " truth ".
Peace,
CJ
In my brief study of the LDS Religion, I would guess he certainly may have believed he was ( like many many others have before and after him ) but his teachings, practices, and indeed direct contradictions and additions to what the Lord taught ( as well as what we find in the O and N Testament ) is enormous evidence, IMHO, that he is simply one of many who made things up and lead many away from the " truth ".
Peace,
CJ
S
Sunstone
Guest
Please forgive me for being so late to the discussion. I’ll start by saying that I have respect for religious views other than my own and hope to say a few things that will be beneficial to those of us who are participating in this thread.
First, as a Mormon who speaks only for himself, I certainly don’t think that everything Joseph Smith Jr. taught is Biblical (and that seems to me to kind of be the point of Mormonism).
Second, I’ll say that Joseph Smith taught different (and sometimes contradictory) things at different points in his life. I don’t have a problem with this, but understand that some people do.
Third, I don’t agree with the idea that a prophet’s teaching must agree with known revelation (at least, if I am understanding the intended point correctly). For example, in Numbers 25:13, Moses says in the name of the Lord that Phinehas will hold the priesthood eternally. However, Hebrews 7:11-12 teaches that the Aaronic priesthood is not eternal. I don’t think I have to choose between Moses and the writer of Hebrews and decide that one of them is “false.”
Fourth, in my opinion the “Moonmen” blasts are undeserved. I believe the following document will put the matter to rest for reasonable minds:
mormonmiscellaneous.com/Papers/Moonmen.pdf
Fifth, I’d like to address the Mormon “apostasy” teaching that rightly brings some consternation on a Catholic board. First, I would suggest that Mormons have moderated their apostasy teaching in recent years. The following is my best “quick and dirty” attempt to convey my understanding of the apostasy.
Mormons believe their notion of the apostasy is rooted in the use of “apostasis” in 2 Thes. 2:3: “Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion [apostasis in Greek] comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.” See also Acts 20:29-30.
Mormons see a pattern of apostasy and restoration throughout history. They would go to the following Bible verses to support this idea:
Amos 8:11-12: “The time is surely coming, says the Lord God, when I will send a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, or a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. 12 They shall wander from sea to sea, and from north to east; they shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the Lord, but they shall not find it.”
Isaiah 24:5: “The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants; for they have transgressed laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant.”
And especially to the Book of Mormon in Jacob 5. Jacob 5: 3-4 will give you a taste: “For behold, thus saith the Lord, I will liken thee, O house of Israel, like unto a tame olive-tree, which a man took and nourished in his vineyard; and it grew, and waxed old, and began to decay. And it came to pass that the master of the vineyard went forth, and he saw that his olive-tree began to decay; and he said: I will prune it, and dig about it, and nourish it, that perhaps it may shoot forth young and tender branches, and it perish not.”
Mormons believe that apostolic authority was forgone and needed to be restored, and that that authority includes the power to intervene in scripture (and this is one of the major roots of the Mormon idea of the open cannon). Mormons go to verses like the following to support their beliefs:
John 15:16: “You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name.”
Acts 1:26: “And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.”
See also Acts 15:22-29 for a major intervention in scripture.
Since this is a Catholic site, I’ll address the “gates of hell did not prevail” teaching from Matt. 16 and 18 (as I have had many interesting discussions of these passages with Catholic friends). Here’s one important quote on that topic from an LDS leader:
“The flame flickered and dimmed….But always, as it had from the beginning, the Spirit of God inspired worthy souls. We owe an immense debt to the protesters and the reformers who preserved the scriptures and translated them. They knew something had been lost. They kept the flame alive as best they could. Many of them were martyrs” (President Boyd K. Packer of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Conference Report, April, 2000, p. 7).
And another from the same leader:
“But mankind was not left in total darkness or completely without revelation or inspiration. The idea that with the Crucifixion of Christ the heaven’s were closed and that the opened in the First Vision is not true. The Light of Christ would be everywhere present to attend the children of God; the Holy Ghost would visit seeking souls. The prayers of the righteous would not go unanswered” (President Boyd K. Packer of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Conference Report, April 2005).
And from a First Presidency Statement (which Mormons would find quite authoritative):
"The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. … We believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation” (“Statement of the First Presidency regarding God’s Love for All Mankind,” Feb. 15, 1978).
First, as a Mormon who speaks only for himself, I certainly don’t think that everything Joseph Smith Jr. taught is Biblical (and that seems to me to kind of be the point of Mormonism).
Second, I’ll say that Joseph Smith taught different (and sometimes contradictory) things at different points in his life. I don’t have a problem with this, but understand that some people do.
Third, I don’t agree with the idea that a prophet’s teaching must agree with known revelation (at least, if I am understanding the intended point correctly). For example, in Numbers 25:13, Moses says in the name of the Lord that Phinehas will hold the priesthood eternally. However, Hebrews 7:11-12 teaches that the Aaronic priesthood is not eternal. I don’t think I have to choose between Moses and the writer of Hebrews and decide that one of them is “false.”
Fourth, in my opinion the “Moonmen” blasts are undeserved. I believe the following document will put the matter to rest for reasonable minds:
mormonmiscellaneous.com/Papers/Moonmen.pdf
Fifth, I’d like to address the Mormon “apostasy” teaching that rightly brings some consternation on a Catholic board. First, I would suggest that Mormons have moderated their apostasy teaching in recent years. The following is my best “quick and dirty” attempt to convey my understanding of the apostasy.
Mormons believe their notion of the apostasy is rooted in the use of “apostasis” in 2 Thes. 2:3: “Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion [apostasis in Greek] comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.” See also Acts 20:29-30.
Mormons see a pattern of apostasy and restoration throughout history. They would go to the following Bible verses to support this idea:
Amos 8:11-12: “The time is surely coming, says the Lord God, when I will send a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, or a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. 12 They shall wander from sea to sea, and from north to east; they shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the Lord, but they shall not find it.”
Isaiah 24:5: “The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants; for they have transgressed laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant.”
And especially to the Book of Mormon in Jacob 5. Jacob 5: 3-4 will give you a taste: “For behold, thus saith the Lord, I will liken thee, O house of Israel, like unto a tame olive-tree, which a man took and nourished in his vineyard; and it grew, and waxed old, and began to decay. And it came to pass that the master of the vineyard went forth, and he saw that his olive-tree began to decay; and he said: I will prune it, and dig about it, and nourish it, that perhaps it may shoot forth young and tender branches, and it perish not.”
Mormons believe that apostolic authority was forgone and needed to be restored, and that that authority includes the power to intervene in scripture (and this is one of the major roots of the Mormon idea of the open cannon). Mormons go to verses like the following to support their beliefs:
John 15:16: “You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name.”
Acts 1:26: “And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.”
See also Acts 15:22-29 for a major intervention in scripture.
Since this is a Catholic site, I’ll address the “gates of hell did not prevail” teaching from Matt. 16 and 18 (as I have had many interesting discussions of these passages with Catholic friends). Here’s one important quote on that topic from an LDS leader:
“The flame flickered and dimmed….But always, as it had from the beginning, the Spirit of God inspired worthy souls. We owe an immense debt to the protesters and the reformers who preserved the scriptures and translated them. They knew something had been lost. They kept the flame alive as best they could. Many of them were martyrs” (President Boyd K. Packer of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Conference Report, April, 2000, p. 7).
And another from the same leader:
“But mankind was not left in total darkness or completely without revelation or inspiration. The idea that with the Crucifixion of Christ the heaven’s were closed and that the opened in the First Vision is not true. The Light of Christ would be everywhere present to attend the children of God; the Holy Ghost would visit seeking souls. The prayers of the righteous would not go unanswered” (President Boyd K. Packer of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Conference Report, April 2005).
And from a First Presidency Statement (which Mormons would find quite authoritative):
"The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. … We believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation” (“Statement of the First Presidency regarding God’s Love for All Mankind,” Feb. 15, 1978).
S
Sunstone
Guest
And here’s my conclusion to that rather long rant:
And so Mormons consider the “church” in at least two senses:
D&C 10:67, 69, which was written before the LDS Church existed, says: Behold, this is my doctrine–whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church…And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
These D&C 10 passages are how Mormons see Catholics and Protestants and perhaps others as “also” being Christians.
And D&C 18:5, which conveys the idea of the insitutional Church: Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
This is how Mormons see their Church in a sort of Jewish sense. They see themselves as having the priesthood authority (think Solomon’s temple), and as being priests, and as calling out to the various and sundry tribal sects and cults to come and respect their authority. One of the major differences, of course, being the modern notion of institutions.
In another sense, though, Mormons see themselves in participating in a work that transcends institutional boundaries. Bob Millet, former Dean of Religious understanding at BYU, has, in recent years, been offering this quote from Mormon leader Orson F. Whitney: “God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of this great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous, for any one people.” (Conference Report, April 1928)
And then there’s Joseph Smith: “Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc. any truth? Yes….We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true “Mormons.” (July 1843, TPJS, p. 316)
Finally, Todd Compton’s take on the apostasy seems fair starting point to me: lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/gospel/restoration/Apostasy_EOM.htm
I hope my efforts in this post further understanding. I’d love to discuss my comments with you as I am always open to learning new things and rethinking things I think I know!
And so Mormons consider the “church” in at least two senses:
D&C 10:67, 69, which was written before the LDS Church existed, says: Behold, this is my doctrine–whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church…And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
These D&C 10 passages are how Mormons see Catholics and Protestants and perhaps others as “also” being Christians.
And D&C 18:5, which conveys the idea of the insitutional Church: Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
This is how Mormons see their Church in a sort of Jewish sense. They see themselves as having the priesthood authority (think Solomon’s temple), and as being priests, and as calling out to the various and sundry tribal sects and cults to come and respect their authority. One of the major differences, of course, being the modern notion of institutions.
In another sense, though, Mormons see themselves in participating in a work that transcends institutional boundaries. Bob Millet, former Dean of Religious understanding at BYU, has, in recent years, been offering this quote from Mormon leader Orson F. Whitney: “God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of this great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous, for any one people.” (Conference Report, April 1928)
And then there’s Joseph Smith: “Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc. any truth? Yes….We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true “Mormons.” (July 1843, TPJS, p. 316)
Finally, Todd Compton’s take on the apostasy seems fair starting point to me: lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/gospel/restoration/Apostasy_EOM.htm
I hope my efforts in this post further understanding. I’d love to discuss my comments with you as I am always open to learning new things and rethinking things I think I know!
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
Ok, let me ask you, Sunstone, questions based on these two statements.
How can you trust that what that person teaches is true and at what points is it true or false?
Why would you want to follow someone who is inconsistent?
Considering that you admit that Smith taugh contradictory things, how can you know which is true or false?
As a computer scientist who deals with logic all the time, this does not make sense to me. I know that if I have two statements, one true, the other false, the whole thing is false. When it comes to teachings, especially religious teachings, teaching has to be consistent in order to be trusted. That way there can be no doubt as to the validity of one statement over another.
This is why I don’t believe Joseph Smith is a true prophet from God. You do, and I know that you believe that, but you yourself admitted that Smith had inconsistent and contradictory teaching. That’s ok with you? :whacky: That just boggles my mind. There is no way that I’d follow the teaching of someone who is inconsistent, especially some lay person.
This is why I can’t understand why someone would follow Smith. He is inconsistent. His teachings can’t be trusted.
R
Religio71
Guest
It is important to note the differences in the places where Mormons meet. The equivalent of the parish is the ward in the LDS Church. This is where LDS are supposed to attend on Sundays for Sacrament Meeting and Sunday School. Wards also have various social events, Relief Society (for women), priesthood meetings (for men), etc. You are able to attend a ward if you like. You’ll notice that wards are different from parishes in that they typically are very spartan, with a Protestant-like look. LDS use bread and water for their sacrament, instead of bread and wine. You should not partake of this (it’s restricted to LDS, and as a Catholic we only partake in Catholic churches, and Eastern Orthodox in various circumstances, since we both have the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist).
Mormon temples are different from the ward. They are not open on Sundays. Temples are where Mormons go to take part in various “ordinances” (sacraments) they deem necessary for salvation and exaltation (godhood). They are baptism for the dead (where a Mormon is baptized on behalf of someone that died, so that the dead person can hear the Gospel and be converted in the spirit world/prison), sealing (eternal marriage, binding a husband and wife and children together for eternity), and the endowment (a ceremony where they make covenants with God and learn signs and tokens (like handshakes) necessary to pass the angels that guard the Celestial Kingdom, the highest kingdom of Heaven according to the LDS Church). Only worthy Mormons are allowed to enter the temple, and you need to present a Temple Recommend to gain access to the facilities. Therefore you would not be allowed to enter a Mormon temple. You would be allowed to enter a ward.
As far as if it is a sin, it isn’t, but of course it can lead you to be tempted to follow false beliefs.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Fermat,This is slightly off thread (maybe not), but in my discussions with my LDS brothers and sisters, the topic of ‘The Great Apostasy’ always comes up. Being a member of the original Christian church, I have always wanted to know what it the Church taught that was the apostasy that kick separated us from Christ.
What was it?
Much of my wifes family is LDS and I always have wanted to ask, but family being family, I didn’t was to say something to accidentally give offense. This is a safe place.
You have asked a fairly complex question, and it has been discussed before on other threads, so here are some basic building blocks for thinking about this:
(1) God has brought the word of the Lord to the people of His covenants through prophets or prophetesses. If one reads the Old Testament, one finds that many times the people are reprimanded because they have strayed from the basic laws, ordinances and covenants that God had established, and they are asked to return to Him. Here are example texts:
Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
Hosea 2:17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the Lord, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
(2) It is clear in reading the epistles of Paul, Peter, and James that as the New Covenant gospel was being preached and people were being baptized and leaders were being called in many places, Paul and Peter and James were concerned about wrong ideas that started to be taught and believed by some of the people (not all of them). Example texts:
Galations 1: …unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
1 Corinthians 1: 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:
James 3:10 …My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
The apostles gave it their all, and tried the absolute best they could to keep all of the doctrines pure and to keep the people seeking the Spirit, which meant they would all be having the guidance of personal revelation and would have the kind of charity and good works and no spirit of contention that Paul and James wrote about so much.
But just as in Old Testament times, the people strayed faster than the leaders could keep them settled in the pure gospel. As time went on, the leaders and teachers strayed also, so the doctrines of the pure gospel have changed over time and now there are all of the disagreements we find among churches who all follow Biblical teachings but don’t agree on those teachings.
S
Sunstone
Guest
Thank you for your questions. In brief (because my wrists are worn out from all of that typing I did), I’d say that:
- At this point, my faith journey has a lot of dialectics and not many dichotomies. I see contradictory teachings in Joseph Smith’s teachings, in the Bible, pretty much everywhere. I see contradiction as more of an opportunity to grow (or regress) than a problem.
- My theological approach is within the umbrella of process theology. I see Joseph Smith, Bible writers, prophets–you name it–as enmeshed in a process just as I am.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology
- I see myself as more “seeking for truth” than as “trying to avoid error.” (And yes, I see those as very different activities).
P
Primox
Guest
I understand what you’re saying. I wouldn’t say the approach is honest, but what you see as a factor that is truly there is overgeneralization. If another Mormon comes to this thread and doesn’t respond as such, but seeks truth and wisdom, than I should think it would be unfair to label he or she with that behaviour. No brow-beating intended. I just know that it would be hard for me to see truth coming from those who have pegged me as behaving in a typical way.
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ParkerD
Guest
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Stouts989
Guest
You can read through the articles yourself, but the main reason (if I understand the sites claims properly) is because the RCC teaches that once we are saved we can lose our salvation. This doctrine is very anti-Christ doctrine…hence the non-Christian claim. I think that’s why that view is held by this website.
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CJ_Nick
Guest
Dear Parker,
First, I have read many of your contributions on these boards and I thank you for sharing your perspectives with us.
As a Catholic, I could not help but to suggest that your contibution concerning " leaders and teachers who strayed " " doctrines that have changed over time " " disagreements within Churches " is EXACTLY what I think of when I evaluate the 190 year history of the LDS Church. No disrespect intended, as a Catholic, I simply found your offering puzzling at best.
Peace,
CJ
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GodIsGracious
Guest
It is not a very anti-christian doctrine. The once saved always saved is anti-christian. That leaves a wide open gap for a christian to do anything they want. Why? Well, they’re saved! I have seen many “saved” Christians act in such a manner.
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Religio71
Guest
This false understanding of Catholic belief has been discussed many times on this forum. Feel free to browse previous threads to understand Catholic belief.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
"“Are you saved?” asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: “As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).” "
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Primox, you’re new, so with all due respect, Rebecca has a LOT of experience in discussions with Mormons and she knows what she is talking about. Rather than counsel her, perhaps you should check the archives. There may be an overgeneralization here, but it’s not being made by Rebecca.
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GodIsGracious
Guest
I would like to add that there people other than Rebecca who notice the same thing, so it’s not like Rebecca is pulling this “overgeneralization” out of her hat.
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