Could the American Revolution ever be justified?

[ialsop]

So, ialsop, please tell us in extensive detail – why would you choose Russia (?!?) of ALL the nations on earth, as the place you’d like to live in.

And while we’re at it, please advise:

–Have you ever previously lived there?
–Traveled there?
–Studied its people? Its language?
–Do you have business contacts there? Have you done business there? What do you know about its business climate?
–Tell us: Do you admire Putin? Trotsky? Lenin? Stalin?

For all I know, you may have a lot to say about these subjects.

Well…

Russia defends persecuted Christians.
Russia bans gay pride school education.
Russia filters all porn from the nation’s internet.
The Russian President is getting very close to the bishops there.
The pro life movements keeps gaining ground in Russia.

Compare that to the US and the direction it is going.

 

[ialsop]

Ialsop, you asked me how the USA’s way of life is better than all other nations on earth.

OK, I’ll educate you. Just off the top of my head:

1. KINDNESS:

Because nothing says kindness like bombing the Middle East and other soviergn countries. See if the citizens of Egypt, Libya, Iraq, or COUNTLESS other nations think we are “kind”. Furthermore, your nationalism is certainly not striking anybody here as very kind.

1. FREEDOM:

True, Russia is not the most free country. But neither is America. Here, you cannot even get on a plane without getting groped by government agents. Also, your entire online history is stored by government databases that could be accessed if they wanted to find out about you. Through the PATRIOT Act the government can wiretap your phone and it’s GPS. Our police forces have become way more militarized. Don’t get me wrong, I have a high degree of respect for our police and the risks they take. But do they need a TANK? Research that.

1. FREE ENTERPRISE:
   Lots of nations have this as well.
2. OPPORTUNITY:

Except for all the people who don’t get rich.

1. SPIRIT OF INNOVENTION:

I do have a very deep respect for America’s history, ESPECIALLY and probably above all else it’s spirit of innovation. We have given much to the world. I do love that about my country. I could add, though, that Russia, as well as many other nations, has a deep culture as well, even if they emphasize other things.

1. STORES OVERFLOWING WITH MATERIAL RICHES:
   Do you have any concept of economics? This consumerism is a spiritual and economic danger to all Americans. Well, except for the many Americans living in poverty.You are right, that is rarer in the US than in other nations though, and I am thankful for the many blessings we as Americans have. But…you do realize…that people in other countries have normal lives also?
2. MILITARY LEADERS WHO ANSWER TO ELECTED OFFICIALS, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND:

**LOL tell me about the last time in 20 years electing an official to the Presidency really made the government less corrupt? **

1. • NON-CORRUPT GOVERNMENTS: *
     Hahahahahahaha you don’t think that there are government officials in the US will subversive motives?
2. • A JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT IS THE WORLD’S MODEL:*

**SO tell me about the Supreme Court’s decision last summer…see…it isn’t FINANCIALLY corrupt, but MORALLY it is sold out. **

1. MILITARY HISTORY:

**Wow…do you actually believe that? I am in AWE of how PERFECT you actually think that America is, and how EVIL you think everybody else is? **

1. PEOPLE WHO COME HERE WITH NOTHING, MERELY FOR OPPORTUNITY.:
   And what do they get? Not riches, that’s for sure.
2. A HISTORY OF USING OUR MILITARY TO PROTECT OTHERS:
   **Oh this is funny. You know, the USSR no longer exists. I hate communism, but the communists no longer rule Russia. So you are right, they WERE exactly that. Anyways, I am at a loss of how you argue that our long history of foreign interventions is a sign of us using our military is self defense. **
3. HOPE:
   In America, you look at what celebrities say and think, it must be true, a celebrity said so.Also, SURE, American politicians never lie…
4. WE HAVE ALL OF THE ABOVE; MOST OTHER COUNTRIES ONLY HAVE SOME AT BEST.
   **No country is perfect. Not even the US. **

-I could add, “we let people stay even when they hate us,” but I think I’ve schooled you enough for one night.

Hehehe… I am curious, friend, as to where you learned all of the above? Some American news company?
Also, the Cold War ended 20 years ago. Socialism still exists, but it’s coming out of American universities, not Soviet prisons…

 

[ialsop]

Jharek, I’m sorry, but the red army in WWII has been described as an army of rapists. Accounts of their rapes are both legion and horrific. They raped nuns; they raped concentration camp survivors who they “liberated.” They raped women in their 80s and they raped 10 year old girls. They raped pregnant women who were in the act of delivering in hospitals. The Russians suffered horrifically at the hands of the Germans, but the rape of German women, on an unimaginably large scale, is well documented. Stalin encouraged it as well; the soviet high command regarded German women as legitimate “war booty.” It was a dark chapter in the history of a nation filled with dark chapters, a nation no self respecting westerner would seek out to live in.

Did you know that American occupiers of Berlin commonly attacked German citizens shortly after World War II?

 

[PolarGuy]

Ialsop, if you’re too young to leave, you’re clearly too young to possess the emotional maturity to recognize both the wonderful things your national has done, and how good you have it here.

Could a child offer a valid opinion about Russia? Well, perhaps if you were the child of a diplomat who’d been raised back and forth between the US and Russia and could speak authoritatively on the subject. Even then I’d have doubts, but clearly that is not the case. Candidly, I actually find your attacks less offensive than I previously did, because someone too young to leave on their own is too young to have a real back-and-forth with on a subject that requires real insight (and you’ll get that when live on your own; have control of your life; and see the world as it is).

But stop being a hater. It doesn’t become you and is disrespectful to americans who’ve actually done something with their lives. Further, this “Russia-love” really is 100% at odds with the facts.

 

[JimG]

Could the Norman Invasion in 1066 be justified?

Sure, that should be a new thread. But if we consider ourselves so superior as to second guess every aspect of world history, I guess it’s up for grabs.

 

[ialsop]

Ialsop, if you’re too young to leave, you’re clearly too young to possess the emotional maturity to recognize both the wonderful things your national has done, and how good you have it here.

Could a child offer a valid opinion about Russia? Well, perhaps if you were the child of a diplomat who’d been raised back and forth between the US and Russia and could speak authoritatively on the subject. Even then I’d have doubts, but clearly that is not the case. Candidly, I actually find your attacks less offensive than I previously did, because someone too young to leave on their own is too young to have a real back-and-forth with on a subject that requires real insight (and you’ll get that when live on your own; have control of your life; and see the world as it is).

But stop being a hater. It doesn’t become you and is disrespectful to americans who’ve actually done something with their lives. Further, this “Russia-love” really is 100% at odds with the facts.

Ad hominem, ad hominem, ad hominem, over and over.

Not even an answer to ANY of my points.

If my arguments are so childish, why is it so hard to answer them?

 

[PolarGuy]

You don’t have any points, ialsop, beyond “I hate the USA and love Russia, even though I really have no knowledge of Russia.”

Seriously, young man (I assume you’re a man), when your posts are full of LOL’s; rhetorical questions; demands that I stop “whining,” and other non-responses, do you really expect some sort of point by point response? Do you think you’re somehow entitled to a response?

If you want to have an honest conversation about the merits of the US vs Russia, you’ll have to show that you have something to offer that makes a repartee worthwhile.

At the moment, you haven’t done that.

I’ll make you a deal: go read “The Gulag Archipeliago,” as well as any detailed account of the soviet atrocities committed in WWII; come back; and we can begin a meaningful discussion. Better yet, do all these things and actually visit Russia. It would also at least be helpful if you actually work; balance a checkbook; get a job and work full time one for a year or so sufficient to see capitalism at its finest; pay off a mortgage; and travel and see enough of the world that you can compare the US meaningfully to other nations.

Otherwise you’re just some kid on the internet and as a matter of course I decline interactions with people fitting that bill, as they usually can’t be reasoned with - which, candidly, is exactly how you’re coming across.

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, except that the British Empire grew enormously and lasted not far off a couple of hundred years more, of course.

 

[powerofk]

Right. The British “Dutch East India” company actually was the ruler in India and Hong Kong for a while; when the company went bankrupt, all of their land holdings were taken in by the crown. Though, during the 1800s, the British, along with most of Europe (especially Western Europe) and the US saw other civilizations as “inferior”. It was considered “White Man’s Burden” to “civilize the savages”. And British rule wasn’t necessarily welcomed. Queen Victoria, while praised in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, was not as well liked elsewhere in the “empire”. Don’t forget the “Opium Wars”, where England fought China because the Chinese emperor (who was addicted to opium himself) wanted to ban opium (which was provided by the English) from his country due to the majority of the country being addicted to the drug. The English “won” the opium wars, and were thus granted control of Hong Kong for 100 years.

 

[ialsop]

You don’t have any points, ialsop, beyond “I hate the USA and love Russia, even though I really have no knowledge of Russia.”

Seriously, young man (I assume you’re a man), when your posts are full of LOL’s; rhetorical questions; demands that I stop “whining,” and other non-responses, do you really expect some sort of point by point response? Do you think you’re somehow entitled to a response?

If you want to have an honest conversation about the merits of the US vs Russia, you’ll have to show that you have something to offer that makes a repartee worthwhile.

At the moment, you haven’t done that.

I’ll make you a deal: go read “The Gulag Archipeliago,” as well as any detailed account of the soviet atrocities committed in WWII; come back; and we can begin a meaningful discussion. Better yet, do all these things and actually visit Russia. It would also at least be helpful if you actually work; balance a checkbook; get a job and work full time one for a year or so sufficient to see capitalism at its finest; pay off a mortgage; and travel and see enough of the world that you can compare the US meaningfully to other nations.

Otherwise you’re just some kid on the internet and as a matter of course I decline interactions with people fitting that bill, as they usually can’t be reasoned with - which, candidly, is exactly how you’re coming across.

Here are two points.

If you refuse to answer this, I will give up on this debate. I have better things to do with my time.

1. Russia’s hard line stance on homosexuality vs. our own nation’s amoral stance on it.
2. The fact that the Russian government today is not the same government that ruled Moscow in the 1940s, thus your World War II stories, of which I am well aware, mean little.

 

[ialsop]

You don’t have any points, ialsop, beyond “I hate the USA and love Russia, even though I really have no knowledge of Russia.”

Seriously, young man (I assume you’re a man), when your posts are full of LOL’s; rhetorical questions; demands that I stop “whining,” and other non-responses, do you really expect some sort of point by point response? Do you think you’re somehow entitled to a response?

If you want to have an honest conversation about the merits of the US vs Russia, you’ll have to show that you have something to offer that makes a repartee worthwhile.

At the moment, you haven’t done that.

I’ll make you a deal: go read “The Gulag Archipeliago,” as well as any detailed account of the soviet atrocities committed in WWII; come back; and we can begin a meaningful discussion. Better yet, do all these things and actually visit Russia. It would also at least be helpful if you actually work; balance a checkbook; get a job and work full time one for a year or so sufficient to see capitalism at its finest; pay off a mortgage; and travel and see enough of the world that you can compare the US meaningfully to other nations.

Otherwise you’re just some kid on the internet and as a matter of course I decline interactions with people fitting that bill, as they usually can’t be reasoned with - which, candidly, is exactly how you’re coming across.

Wait…you do realize that Russia is not Soviet anymore, right? It doesn’t sound like you got that…kind of important event.

 

[ialsop]

I like both I like America’s strong points. I like her history. And I love the land here. I have said all of that.

Oh and Polar, I NEVER said that I hate America. Never. Total fabrication.

Anyways, I like both, but no nation is perfect. I just think Russia is moving on a lighter road and America is going down a darker one.

 

[JimG]

Before you move, you might want to read Garry Kasparov’s new book:
amazon.com/gp/product/B012271KCU/ref=nav_timeline_asin?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Boy_Wonder]

If one of the requirements for a war to be just according to the CCC is that it must be the legitimate authority who wages the war, and also that there must be a “serious prospect of success”, how could the American Revolution ever be justified? And how could we celebrate the fourth of July if we are celebrating something that morally speaking, we couldn’t have fought for if we were there (in 1776)? I love my country, but I’m a Catholic first. If you have any answers, if it’s possible please link a source(s).

catholic.com/documents/just-war-doctrine

War is war. Don’t expect the USA or any nation to decide whether it is about to engage in a just war. That’s just silly. The world is the world. War is a way of the world. It is seldom, if ever, a “just war”. The best we can hope for is that it’s fought as humanely as possible.

 

[Thorolfr]

This is why I do not celebrate the Fourth or the Revolution.

See, according to “natural rights” it is indeed justified, but that is a very protestant way of thinking politics. Where in Scripture or Church teaching is the blueprint for a REPUBLIC?

So you’re a royalist?

 

[Thorolfr]

Funny, because the Catholic Church was a huge defender of monarchy.

WHERE, I ask, from Christian teaching, do you get that PEOPLE ought to rule society?

But it seems that God did not care that much for kings. You should read 1 Samuel 8:1-18:

8 When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beer-sheba. 3 Yet his sons did not follow in his ways, but turned aside after gain; they took bribes and perverted justice.

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, 5 and said to him, “You are old and your sons do not follow in your ways; appoint for us, then, a king to govern us, like other nations.” 6 **But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to govern us.” **Samuel prayed to the Lord, 7 and the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. 8 Just as they have done to me,[a] from the day I brought them up out of Egypt to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so also they are doing to you. 9 Now then, listen to their voice; only—you shall solemnly warn them, and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.”

10 So Samuel reported all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen, and to run before his chariots; 12 and he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his courtiers. 15 He will take one-tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and his courtiers. 16 He will take your male and female slaves, and the best of your cattle** and donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take one-tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. 18 And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves; but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”**

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Before you move, you might want to read Garry Kasparov’s new book:
amazon.com/gp/product/B012271KCU/ref=nav_timeline_asin?ie=UTF8&psc=1

**Thanks for the book link.
However, I have to disagree with its premise. The USA is not at war with Russia and never has been.
But the USA does face very real threats. One is radical religious terrorism, and the other is global nuclear war.
Russia is essential to us in dealing with each of these.

I don’t care if the Russian government is a democracy or not. I don’t care if Russia annexes the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine provinces.
What’s important is that the USA has Russia’s cooperation in dealing with radical threats and with Iran’s nuclear weapons ambition.
Now, it seems, that the USA has lost some of that help.**

defenseone.com/technology/2015/04/russian-weapon-could-tip-balance-middle-east/110533/?oref=d-dontmiss

**It is time for the citizens of the USA to realize that Russia is the best friend that we have in this world, and that this insane ICBM stand-off between our countries cannot continue forever.
It is just too dangerous, especially considering the policies of confrontation that have been adopted by our leaders.
Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament is the only action available to the USA that will prevent a global nuclear war: the worst disaster that has ever befallen mankind.

Russia is not a threat to our way of life in the USA. WW III most definitely is.**

 

[JimG]

**Thanks for the book link.
However, I have to disagree with its premise. The USA is not at war with Russia and never has been.
But the USA does face very real threats. One is radical religious terrorism, and the other is global nuclear war.
Russia is essential to us in dealing with each of these.

I don’t care if the Russian government is a democracy or not. I don’t care if Russia annexes the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine provinces.
What’s important is that the USA has Russia’s cooperation in dealing with radical threats and with Iran’s nuclear weapons ambition.
Now, it seems, that the USA has lost some of that help.**

defenseone.com/technology/2015/04/russian-weapon-could-tip-balance-middle-east/110533/?oref=d-dontmiss

**It is time for the citizens of the USA to realize that Russia is the best friend that we have in this world, and that this insane ICBM stand-off between our countries cannot continue forever.
It is just too dangerous, especially considering the policies of confrontation that have been adopted by our leaders.
Unilateral Nuclear Disarmament is the only action available to the USA that will prevent a global nuclear war: the worst disaster that has ever befallen mankind.

Russia is not a threat to our way of life in the USA. WW III most definitely is.**

Perhaps you could sell a similar argument to Mr. Putin, who is even now in the process of upgrading his nuclear forces.

 

[Thorolfr]

Perhaps you could sell a similar argument to Mr. Putin, who is even now in the process of upgrading his nuclear forces.

Yeah, I’m not sure that I agree that “Russia is the best friend that we have in this world”.

 

[jeffrey_erwin]

Perhaps you could sell a similar argument to Mr. Putin, who is even now in the process of upgrading his nuclear forces.

**Two men sit at a table, and each holds a loaded pistol pointer at the other’s head. Each fears to put down his gun but also fears to shoot.
This cannot go on forever. One of these players must come to his senses and take the brave action of placing his trust in YHWH and putting down his pistol.

It really is that simple: choose to live under the Russian nuclear umbrella or suffer the ravages of global nuclear war.

Do you believe in following our sacred Teacher’s instructions?
Do you believe in the warnings of Holy Scripture?
**
The nations have sunk into a pit of their own making,
they are caught by the feet in the snare they set themselves,
YHWH has…trapped the wicked in the work of their own hands.

Always treat others as you would like them to treat you.