Could The Mormon Church Be The "true Church" Of Christ

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Apostle Bruce R. McConkie:
“Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47)
“God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the son of God, and that designation means what it says.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, page 742)
“For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being” (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466)
Mary told the story most beautifully when she said that an angel of the Lord came to her and told her that she had found favor in the sight of God, and had come to be worthy of the fulfilment of the promises heretofore made, to become the virgin mother of the Redeemer of the world. She afterwards, referring to the event, said: “God hath done wonderful things unto me.” “And the Holy Ghost came upon her,” is the story, “and she came into the presence of the highest.” No man or woman can live in mortality and survive the presence of the Highest except by the sustaining power of the Holy Ghost. So it came upon her to prepare her for admittance into the divine presence, and the power of the Highest, who is the Father, was present, and overshadowed her, and the holy Child that was born of her was called the Son of God. (The Promised Messiah, p.472 - p.473)
Apostle James E. Talmadge
And so, in the final analysis it is the faithful saints, those who have testimonies of the truth and divinity of this great latter-day work, who declare our Lord’s generation to the world. Their testimony is that Mary’s son is God’s Son; that he was conceived and begotten in the normal way; that he took upon himself mortality by the natural birth processes; that he inherited the power of mortality from his mother and the power of immortality from his Father—in consequence of all of which he was able to work out the infinite and eternal atonement. This is their testimony as to his generation and mission. (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, Ch.5, p.43)
Poster’s note: “Jesus the Christ” was required reading when I was a full-time missionary. I know of no missionary (during the 1970’s) who did not read it and fully comprehend its meaning.

There is so much more, but I thought a small sample would be sufficient to make the point.
It is plain to see that this doctrine has pervaded all of Mormon doctrine and thinking for the last 170 years. It is an insult to our intelligence for any Mormon to deny that this doctrine was ever authoritatively taught.

Paul
 
We said things about your faith that were the truth even though collectively you denied it.
Doesn’t the fact that a bunch of Mormons denied it tell you something about the probable ‘truth’ of what you claim about our beliefs?
Bill did his homework and gave you references in your book of Mormon and in the writings of other mormons that corroberated and validated our apologetics. Apologetics is about defending ones beliefs. You collectively have failed beacause your church is not even remotely close to any Christian orthodoxy, Protestant or Catholic.
Bill isn’t even close to being correct. He is one of the worst of you.

And you have just proven my point.
 
By “Virgin birth”, Mormons mean that no mortal human had sex with Mary, but since God had sex with Mary, and He is immortal, she remains a virgin.

Presidents of the LDS Church:

President Brigham Young:

President Joseph Fielding Smith:

President Ezra Taft Benson:

Continued…
You will notice that every single one of these quotes was emphasizing paternity; that is…GOD is the Father, the Holy Ghost is not.
Thank you for including some of the context that proves this.

As I challenged Rebecca, not a single one of these says that God had sex with Mary. Every one of them is about WHO Fathered Christ, not HOW.

And I’d like to know why it is so important to you, anyway? Seems to me that it would be GOOD news to you to find out that we do not believe that God had sex with Mary.

(shrug)

But hey. I’ve been noticing that facts are in the road when one has a good titillating story to tell.
 
You will notice that every single one of these quotes was emphasizing paternity; that is…GOD is the Father, the Holy Ghost is not.
Thank you for including some of the context that proves this.

As I challenged Rebecca, not a single one of these says that God had sex with Mary. Every one of them is about WHO Fathered Christ, not HOW.

And I’d like to know why it is so important to you, anyway? Seems to me that it would be GOOD news to you to find out that we do not believe that God had sex with Mary.

(shrug)

But hey. I’ve been noticing that facts are in the road when one has a good titillating story to tell.
You must have missed this part:
“Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father** in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers**.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47)
Unless your mom never had “that talk” with you, I think you understand what that means.
he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the son of God, and that designation means what it says.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, page 742)
See, to Mormons, Jesus is no different from us. Maybe that accounts for the astounding lack of reverence in sacrament meetings.

Paul
 
Presidents of the LDS Church:

President Brigham Young:

President Joseph Fielding Smith:

President Ezra Taft Benson:

Continued…
Isn’t that exactly what I just said???

No where does this say God the Father had sex with Mary.

But it does say that God the Father was the Biological Father to Jesus. Jesus Christ is God’s Only Begotten Son. The Bible tells us so.

MEgus
 
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie:

Apostle James E. Talmadge

Poster’s note: “Jesus the Christ” was required reading when I was a full-time missionary. I know of no missionary (during the 1970’s) who did not read it and fully comprehend its meaning.

There is so much more, but I thought a small sample would be sufficient to make the point.
It is plain to see that this doctrine has pervaded all of Mormon doctrine and thinking for the last 170 years. It is an insult to our intelligence for any Mormon to deny that this doctrine was ever authoritatively taught.

Paul
Paul, we don’t deny it. We profess it. God the Father was the Biological Father of Jesus Christ!!!

Let me say it again,

God the Father was the Biological Father of Jesus Christ!!!

Just as it says so in the Bible.

Also, Mary was a Virgin. She did NOT, again DID NOT have sexual relations with God.

You want to twist and turn things and add your own thoughts to this. Remember, God can do anything, right? Can God the Father be the Biological Father of Jesus Christ without having Sex with Mary?

I mean, just look at the news. Didn’t a women in California just have 8 babies without having sex with the Biological Father?

You guys want to twist and distort Biblical Truths into something they are not and make something sinister out of it where it does not exist.

MEgus
 
Oh, and while you can ask anyone. And many of us will help you find places to learn and gain understanding, You need to ask the Holy Ghost to teach you. The Savior told us that is where we need to turn for the truth of all things. So, when one of us or someone else gives you answers, it’s still on your shoulders to council with the Holy Ghost to find out if these answers are truth from God or not.

MEgus
I have been praying about this for months and I got my answer the first time I prayed. I guess I keep asking and keep studying because some part of me wants it to be true. I don’t want to believe that these poor kids give up two years of their lives for no reason. I keep thinking that if I study enough or pray enough the answer will change but it is always a “no”. I guess I can just keep planting seeds with them and hope for the best.
 
As I challenged Rebecca, not a single one of these says that God had sex with Mary. Every one of them is about WHO Fathered Christ, not HOW.
You all know that your fathers are indeed your fathers and that your mothers are indeed your mothers you all know that don’t you? You cannot deny it. Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was begotten not of God but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. This is nonsense. Why will not the world receive the truth? Why will they not believe the Father when he says that Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son? Why will they try to explain this truth away and make mystery of it?
Now if God is a man, a glorious perfected man-that is, perfect in all his glorious attributes, and infinite in power, there never will come a time when God the Father will not have power to extend His dominion and His Glory. He is the maker of Heaven and the Earth, on which we dwell, for He made this earth by his word and by his power. How did he make it? He called the elements that are invisible to our eyes. He formed the earth on which we dwell, and has formed millions of worlds, and they are peopled with his children, for there is no end to his dominions and the worlds he has created cannot be numbered unto man.

Now, little boys and girls, when you are confronted by infidels in the world who know nothing of how Christ was begotten, you can say he was born just as the infidel was begotten and born, so was Christ begotten by his Father, who is also our Father-the Father of our spirits-and he was born of his mother Mary.

The difference between Jesus Christ and other men is this: Our fathers in the flesh are mortal men, who are subject unto death; but the Father of Jesus Christ in the flesh is the God of Heaven. Therefore Jesus, as he declared, received the power of life from his Father and was never subject unto death but had life in himself as his father had life in himself. Because of this power he overcame death and the grave and became master of the resurrection and the means of salvation to us all.

Shall we as Latter-day Saints deny the truth and then claim that God made man in his likeness in the beginning? Shall we come under the impression that God possesses the power of creation, and yet did not literally create? He is not without his companion any more than I am without my companion, the mother of my children.

These are truths and I wish they could be instilled into the hearts of these little children so that they will not be tossed about by every wind of doctrine and be confused by the teachers of atheism. Now, by and by you will be able to understand this far better than you can today. Some of us grandparents find it difficult to conceive the truth we want to think of something marvelous. We want to try to make it appear that God does not do things in the right way, or that he has another way of doing things than what we know, we must come down to the simple fact that God Almighty was the Father of His Son Jesus Christ. Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother. God by her begot His son Jesus Christ, and He was born into the world with power and intelligence like that of His Father.
(THE BOX ELDER NEWS, THURSDAY, JANUARY 28, 1915 PRESIDENT JOS. F. SMITH’S ADDRESS SUNDAY MORNING, qtd “Message of the First Presidency, Vol 4”, Clark, James R, 1970, Deseret Book)
 
This is yet another case of Mormons playing dumb - a common LDS tactic when trying to deceive non-members and deny their embarrasing doctrines.

I’ll post it one more time:
“Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1979, pages 546-47)
Mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers through sexual intercourse (I remember how my children were begotten - I was there 🙂 ). Therefore McConkie (prophet, seer and revelator) was clearly saying that Jesus was conceived through sexual intercourse, just as President Joseph F. Smith was saying.

Are they that ashamed of the teachings of their prophets of God?

Paul
 
Your creeds are all abominations.

There are only two churches. The Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil.
 
And you know this how?

Please cite your sources.
History of the Church, an official publication of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

You really don’t know much about your religion, do you?
 
Your creeds are all abominations.

There are only two churches. The Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil.
The honesty is refreshing, I’ll say that.

What do you say Diana, is this taught at lds org. Is this lds belief?
 
And I’d like to know why it is so important to you, anyway? Seems to me that it would be GOOD news to you to find out that we do not believe that God had sex with Mary.
Not important to me, as in, what Mormon doctrine is. Important in the sense when Mormons deny what their own church has taught, especially when they frame it as “anti-mormon”. This is a deception.

But yes, I do believe sincerely that it is a good thing that your church has worked at jettisoning these teachings.

Though, I see it as only to appear to be mainstream. Remove the weird stuff so prospective converts don’t go “what the hell?”.

I have to wonder what kind of ward/seminary/institute you’ve been around though. I don’t know a mormon who hasn’t heard this taught by another mormon. I understand completely that you wouldn’t want to believe it. We do agree there.
 
Doesn’t the fact that a bunch of Mormons denied it tell you something about the probable ‘truth’ of what you claim about our beliefs?

Bill isn’t even close to being correct. He is one of the worst of you.

And you have just proven my point.
Come on Diane, I really feel sorry for.you. We show you in black and white proof that your faith is far removed from any semblance of Christain orthodoxy. Now you are just getting into name calling. Paul, Rebecca, Bill and I have really exposed your church for what it is, a cult whose genesis came not from God.
 
You will notice that every single one of these quotes was emphasizing paternity; that is…GOD is the Father, the Holy Ghost is not.
Thank you for including some of the context that proves this.
As I challenged Rebecca, not a single one of these says that God had sex with Mary. Every one of them is about WHO
Fathered Christ, not HOW

Again you have proven my point. Mormon trinitarian theology believes in a plurality of Gods, each separate and distinct from One Another. Polytheism is at the heart of your beliefs.

Alan
 
**Apostles (“Prophets, seers and revelators”) of the LDS Church:
**
Apostle Orson Pratt (Appointed by President Brigham Young as Official publicist for LDS doctrine):
Quote:
"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Saviour unlawfully. It would have been unlawful for any man to have interfered with Mary, who was already espoused to Joseph; for such a heinous crime would have subjected both the guilty parties to death, according to the law of Moses.
Wow, Paul. I never really knew for sure where my ‘gospel principals’ teacher came up with his ideas for class but this is it, right here. Except that he added the words sexual intercourse to make sure we got the message loud and clear… And again - member of bishopric present - no objections from him.
 
Thank you.

However, this thread is getting too much like alt.religion.mormon for my taste; the ad hominems, sarcasm and mockery are flying.

I’d like to ask you guys something; why do you have a ‘non-Catholic religions’ forum, anyway?

What’s the purpose of it?
Discussion of non-Catholic religions and/or beliefs.
Because frankly, from here it looks like a nicely decorated spiderweb…like Jack Chick having a ‘Catholics invited’ forum on his website.
If you weren’t going to treat members of non-Catholic religions with courtesy, if your entire purpose for inviting us into your forum (and you DID invite us!) is to attack our beliefs and insult us…
I’d rather not.
What has insulted you?
Remember now, I have not ever once insulted or attacked Catholicism or denigrated your beliefs. The majority of my posts have been responses to people who do nothing BUT that to my own faith.
The posts you choose to respond to are your choice.
Of course, freedom of speech and all that guarantee that you can say anything you want; and it is, after all, your forum even if non-Catholics were specifically invited to this portion of it. That’s your right and your privilege.
However, you might consider that when you pull this sort of thing on others, you have then given up any right you have to complain about the Jack Chicks of the world.
I have a hard time not seeing complaints like this as anything but Mormons hoping to not have their statements and beliefs challenged.

Non-Catholics challenge our beliefs here, every day, constantly, on this forum.

My perception is that mormons are afraid to ask what other non-Catholics believe, about anything. I have never seen a mormon do that here. Not once.

I have seen plenty of mormon proselyting.
 
Thank you.

However, this thread is getting too much like alt.religion.mormon for my taste; the ad hominems, sarcasm and mockery are flying.

I’d like to ask you guys something; why do you have a ‘non-Catholic religions’ forum, anyway?

What’s the purpose of it?

Because frankly, from here it looks like a nicely decorated spiderweb…like Jack Chick having a ‘Catholics invited’ forum on his website.

If you weren’t going to treat members of non-Catholic religions with courtesy, if your entire purpose for inviting us into your forum (and you DID invite us!) is to attack our beliefs and insult us…

I’d rather not.

Remember now, I have not ever once insulted or attacked Catholicism or denigrated your beliefs. The majority of my posts have been responses to people who do nothing BUT that to my own faith.

Of course, freedom of speech and all that guarantee that you can say anything you want; and it is, after all, your forum even if non-Catholics were specifically invited to this portion of it. That’s your right and your privilege.

However, you might consider that when you pull this sort of thing on others, you have then given up any right you have to complain about the Jack Chicks of the world.
Diana,

What do you think we should do, agree with you? Your church’s very purpose and mission, whether you can see it or not, is to try and take people away from the church established by Christ Himself and teach them another ‘gospel’, from an unholy source.

That’s how I see it. Nothing against you personally at all

Tami
 
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