Could the next pope ordain women as priests?

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captainmike

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Not asking whether he would do so. Am asking whether he has the power to do so. Could the next pope say, “I know what JPII and Benedict said, but I disagree.”

I know that the immaculate conception of Mary and her assumption are dogmas that can’t be changed.

But does the teaching on women’s ordination really rise to that level? Is it a teaching that no Pope, or even an Ecumenical Council, could ever change?
 
captainmike said:
Not asking whether he would do so. Am asking whether he has the power to do so. Could the next pope say, “I know what JPII and Benedict said, but I disagree.”
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Assuming the next pope said that, he would no longer be Catholic and therefore, no longer the pope.
 
captainmike said:
Not asking whether he would do so. Am asking whether he has the power to do so. Could the next pope say, “I know what JPII and Benedict said, but I disagree.”
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No.
captainmike said:
I know that the immaculate conception of Mary and her assumption are dogmas that can’t be changed.
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True.
captainmike said:
But does the teaching on women’s ordination really rise to that level?
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Yes.
captainmike said:
Is it a teaching that no Pope, or even an Ecumenical Council, couldn’t ever change?
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Correct.
 
No they can’t. Holy Orders were instituted by Christ and may only be conferred to men. Since it was established by Christ no Pope has the authority or power to change it.
 
Help me to understand why. Which teachings of a Pope can never be changed? I thought it was only dogmatic teachings, issued ex cathedra, that could never be changed no matter what.
 
Usige said:
No they can’t. Holy Orders were instituted by Christ and may only be conferred to men. Since it was established by Christ no Pope has the authority or power to change it.
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You’re giving the reason why JPII and Benedict said what they said. Understand that. Why couldn’t a subsequent Pope disagree, though?
 
“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.” - Blessed Pope John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (May 22, 1994)

Source: vatican.va/holy_father/jo…otalis_en.html

[emphasis mine]

To accept women as priests is to cease to be Catholic.

“Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense Catholic, which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent.” - St Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory, Ch 2:6

Source: newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm
 
yes, it can never be changed.

We declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis
Apostolic letter of May 1994

This follows the rubrics of papal infallibility. He is acting as pope, he speaks for the church, he states that it is to be held definitvely by the whole church.

God bless,
 
Zekariya said:
I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.
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I know that’s what he said, but is it really binding on a future Pope? He didn’t issue the statement ex cathedra, right?
 
Jesus chose men to be the predescors to priesthood. Take it up with him!

Only men can be priests, women can not act in persona Christi.
 
captainmike said:
I know that’s what he said, but is it really binding on a future Pope? He didn’t issue the statement ex cathedra, right?
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This isn’t a teaching of the Pope so no Pope can change it. The sacraments (including form and mater) were instituted by Christ and only Christ may change them.
 
Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: “Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith” (Lumen Gentium 25).

for one
 
“Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense Catholic, which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent.” - St Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory, Ch 2:6

Source: newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm

You can’t baptize a cat; it goes against Christ and all that the Church has ever taught. You can’t ordain a woman; it goes against Christ and all that the Church has ever taught.
 
You’re not really answering my question (by the way, I oppose women being ordained).

Not every word that comes out of a Pope’s mouth is a teaching that never, ever can be changed no matter what.

What exactly must a Pope say (and how, and to whom) for a teaching of any kind to rise to the level of “this can’t be changed ever”?

Please cite some authority for your answer.

Thanks.
 
captainmike said:
Not asking whether he would do so. Am asking whether he has the power to do so. Could the next pope say, “I know what JPII and Benedict said, but I disagree.”

I know that the immaculate conception of Mary and her assumption are dogmas that can’t be changed.

But does the teaching on women’s ordination really rise to that level? Is it a teaching that no Pope, or even an Ecumenical Council, could ever change?
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No, the teaching cannot be changed.
 
captainmike said:
You’re not really answering my question (by the way, I oppose women being ordained).

Not every word that comes out of a Pope’s mouth is a teaching that never, ever can be changed no matter what.

What exactly must a Pope say (and how, and to whom) for a teaching of any kind to rise to the level of “this can’t be changed ever”?

Please cite some authority for your answer.

Thanks.
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But it is NOT a teaching by a Pope.

Think of it this way. God is a Trinity, right.

This was NOT explicitly stated in Scripture. It is a teaching of the Church. It cannot be changed. It will never be changed. But it was never stated 'ex cathedra." It is part of the Deposit of the Faith, the Magesterium.

SO is the teaching about ordination requiring men.

And that the Eucharist must contain Wine and Bread, and not Tequila and Corn Chips.

And marriage is between one man and one woman.

You won’t find an ‘ex cathedra’ statement on those, but they will never be changed.
 
I think this discussion brings up a question I have wanted to ask. Even though JPII’s statement is considered infallible, may a future pope clarify, for those who disagree, that this is surely binding? Clearly this discussion is because some disagree that it is infallible. However, may “Pope so-and-so” say, “To remove all doubt from the minds of the faithful, I hereby declare that Pope John Paul II’s statement of women’s ordination is infallible and binding on all Catholics.”
 
The_Scott said:
I think this discussion brings up a question I have wanted to ask. Even though JPII’s statement is considered infallible, may a future pope clarify, for those who disagree, that this is surely binding? Clearly this discussion is because some disagree that it is infallible. However, may “Pope so-and-so” say, “To remove all doubt from the minds of the faithful, I hereby declare that Pope John Paul II’s statement of women’s ordination is infallible and binding on all Catholics.”
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It may take just that to convince some of our more mentally dense bretheren and sisters and those who just like to argue!
 
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