C
Canvas
Guest
So a Baptized Catholic who does not have faith can be married outside the Church without dispensation and it will be considered a valid marriage by the Church?
Last edited:
Could the Pope place a President Biden under personal interdict?
- Thread starter HomeschoolDad
- Start date
- Status
C
Canvas
Guest
They may be apostates or sinners, but they are still subject to Canon Law, hence they are Catholics in the eyes of the Church.
O
otjm
Guest
Actually, two bishops have told Biden to not present himself for Communion.
And it is seriously questionable whether any other bishop has jurisdiction over Biden. so the point is not well made.
M
MNathaniel
Guest
It does make it kind of pointless to use the “He’s Catholic” line though. About anyone who openly rejects 1+ Catholic teachings while still being baptized. It’s a fact in the category of "technically true but meaningless beyond a very limited context ".
Good luck telling Baptists to their face that by baptism they’re really Catholics, whether they like it or not.
Last edited:
F
Freddy
Guest
Because of a obviously public act of anti-life is tolerated, how can we criticize a relatively private act.
It causes scandal and lessens the credibility of of the teaching. You always start with the most public and well known with the most gravity. Then you work your way down.
[/quote]
I see your point. But it does mean that if Biden was a retired accountant in Scranton then nobody would be calling for him to be prevented for taking communion because of his views. But if he took an interest in politics and shot into the public consciousness then his eleigibility for communion would be treated differently.
You are effectively saying that he needs to be used as an example to others. Do you think that people may change their views if he was?
It causes scandal and lessens the credibility of of the teaching. You always start with the most public and well known with the most gravity. Then you work your way down.
[/quote]
I see your point. But it does mean that if Biden was a retired accountant in Scranton then nobody would be calling for him to be prevented for taking communion because of his views. But if he took an interest in politics and shot into the public consciousness then his eleigibility for communion would be treated differently.
You are effectively saying that he needs to be used as an example to others. Do you think that people may change their views if he was?
I’ve mused before how the pastor at the KJV-only Baptist church down the road from me — and these people are very old-school, hard-core, no-BS “real” Baptists, their profession of traditional Christian morality is a joy to read — would react if I told him he is Catholic and immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff. The fur would definitely fly!
These are the kind of Christians I almost regard as “brothers from another mother”. We think alike.
M
MNathaniel
Guest
Yeah, I have a lot more affection and patience for a sincere Baptist who rejects Catholicism altogether than for someone who claims the name ‘Catholic’ while openly rejecting its teachings.
Integrity: Good.
Hypocrisy: Bad.
F
Freddy
Guest
From discussions I’ve had with Catholics, their view isn’t that they are disobeying God. They see it as disobeying the church. With the subtext that they think the church has it wrong on this particular matter.Freddy:
Abortion is murder, and contraception is not. Big difference.
But you are right, contraceptors shouldn’t be receiving communion either. I would have far more respect for them, if they would admit “I don’t trust God enough, or love Him enough, to surrender this portion of my life to His providence, rather, I want what I want in the here and now, I’m not willing to make that kind of sacrifice, I have to do this to preserve my lifestyle (and possibly even my relationship with my spouse), and this is more important to me, than doing what God wants me to do, but I will not further dishonor Him by receiving His Body and Blood unworthily, I pray I will live long enough one day to make things right with God, may He preserve me until then, and have mercy on my soul”.
It’s like belonging to a political party and supporting them heart and soul. But…disagreeing on a specific policy. And yeah, I know that’s a clumsy analogy, but it’s the best I’ve got…
Last edited:
F
Freddy
Guest
That is objectively distrusting God, though.
[/quote]
One Catholic frend I talked to recently definitely doesn’t see it like that.
And I will gladly acknowledge that if you are a Catholic then there are teachings that you are obliged to follow. It’s not like you become a Catholic and the teachings gradually change and you find you can no longer agree with them (as in a political party to use that clumsy analogy again).
But…there are many cradle Catholics who find that their views change over the years - sometimes drastically. And those views don’t then align with the church. But they still feel themselves as being Catholic and wouldn’t never consider leaving the church.
Maybe they pray for guidance. Maybe it’s a lifetime struggle. Maybe some do actually leave and become cino’s. How Biden sees his position is something we can’t know. It’s between him and God but he seems to be a genuinely religious man (as opposed to the man he’s replacing) with a strong faith. And like many other Catholics with that strong faith they find themselves not entirely aligning with what the church teaches.
[/quote]
One Catholic frend I talked to recently definitely doesn’t see it like that.
And I will gladly acknowledge that if you are a Catholic then there are teachings that you are obliged to follow. It’s not like you become a Catholic and the teachings gradually change and you find you can no longer agree with them (as in a political party to use that clumsy analogy again).
But…there are many cradle Catholics who find that their views change over the years - sometimes drastically. And those views don’t then align with the church. But they still feel themselves as being Catholic and wouldn’t never consider leaving the church.
Maybe they pray for guidance. Maybe it’s a lifetime struggle. Maybe some do actually leave and become cino’s. How Biden sees his position is something we can’t know. It’s between him and God but he seems to be a genuinely religious man (as opposed to the man he’s replacing) with a strong faith. And like many other Catholics with that strong faith they find themselves not entirely aligning with what the church teaches.
M
mythbuster1
Guest
The Baltimore Catechism speaks the truth provided that denying an article of faith is understood to mean refusing to believe an article of faith, knowing it to be an article of the Catholic Faith. They are not to be condemned who make erroneous conclusions but who accept correction when corrected by the Church.
M
mythbuster1
Guest
It is not possible to be absolved while intending to commit a mortal sin. A person who confesses a sinful lifestyle such as contraception must renounce it in order for the priest to absolve them, and insincerely renouncing the sinful lifestyle makes one guilty of sacrilege, as does concealing a mortal sin from the priest. Another common example of a sinful lifestyle is having a sexual relationship with someone who is not your lawful spouse: you must agree to cease relations unless and until you lawfully marry. Of course, there are plenty of sinful lifestyles that are unrelated to sex: participating in a criminal enterprise, heresy, schism, neglecting to attend Mass, idolatry, divination, recreational intoxication, etc.
A
adf417
Guest
Im sure you were but im not so sure they were.
Peace!!!
Peace!!!
Tis_Bearself
Patron
The post you’re putting this on was no longer about Biden, it was about (name removed by moderator) constantly misrepresenting Catholic teachings about Baptism on here. You will note I said that non-Catholics are in communion with the Church through Baptism, not “non-Catholics are Catholics”.
The person to whom I responded, who I proceeded to then put on ignore, simply muddied the waters of the original discussion by trying to make some argument that if people don’t accept the teachings of the Church they aren’t Catholics. Yes, it is true that the Baptist who received a Trinitarian Baptism would not be considered a member of the Church although he would be considered in communion with the Church. However, a cradle Catholic who is baptized, initated, and raised Catholic and then grows up to disagree with the Church on some point does not stop being a Catholic because he is disagreeing with the Church or even committing sins related to his disagreement.
I and at least four other people on this thread have been over this multiple times and as I predicted when I put the person muddying the waters here on “ignore”, it’s like beating a dead horse and talking to the wall. I would hope nobody gets the idea that a Catholic holding a controversial or even wrong view somehow de-Catholicizes themselves by doing so. But in the end people will think what they want, I guess, even if it’s wrong.
I’m going to mute this whole thread now because I feel like I’m repeating myself.
Last edited:
Generally speaking, modern Catholics are self-brainwashed to think there is nothing wrong with contraception, because hardly anyone else outside the Church agrees with this teaching, Catholics see this, think “those people do it, and the sky doesn’t fall in”. Moreover, it makes life immeasurably easier, it’s eminently practical, and it allows people to have only those children they want, when they want them, and then it’s usually the woman who “gets fixed” (often at the same time she’s delivered her last wanted child), sex on demand with no consequences for the remainder of the marriage. And possibly most of all, it allows sex to be enjoyed with no risk, and human nature gravitates to such a proposition, because human nature wants pleasure (especially the most intense pleasure that can be had in life), medical science affords a way to make this happen, and the lure is irresistible.HomeschoolDad:
From discussions I’ve had with Catholics, their view isn’t that they are disobeying God. They see it as disobeying the church. With the subtext that they think the church has it wrong on this particular matter.
Put all of that together, and it’s no wonder that modern Catholics generally say “there’s nothing wrong with it”. Sure… just like what the serpent said to Eve about the fruit. And look what happened.
I know you don’t share our faith, @Freddy, so I don’t expect you to embrace this (though I’d be gratified if you did!), but at least you can see the reasoning that is at play here. It’s not “conscience”. It’s “seeing the best thing you can imagine having, wanting it, and not being willing to admit that the Church is right and the rest of the world is wrong”. It’s just too attractive.
Better living through chemistry!
Last edited:
F
Freddy
Guest
I gotta say, you’ve sold me on the idea! But it does seem like all positives. Or at least the positives hugely outweigh what people might consider the practical negatives.
I’ve got a family bible upstairs and it’s got details of my paternal grandmothers family line going back to the early 19th century (the first thing I’ll grab in a fire). There’s lists of births and deaths (in my grandmother’s hand I think) going back to her grandmother and the number of children who died in the first year or two of life is depressing.
Imagine what each couple would have said if they’d had access to efficient contraception at that time. Imagine the heartbreak it would have prevented.
Now imagine the heartbreak it could prevent now in sub Saharan Africa where over 2 1/2 million infants died last year.
Your description of why people use contraception these days is very accurate. It’s mainly for personal convenience. But in some parts of the world it means life or death.
I’ve got a family bible upstairs and it’s got details of my paternal grandmothers family line going back to the early 19th century (the first thing I’ll grab in a fire). There’s lists of births and deaths (in my grandmother’s hand I think) going back to her grandmother and the number of children who died in the first year or two of life is depressing.
Imagine what each couple would have said if they’d had access to efficient contraception at that time. Imagine the heartbreak it would have prevented.
Now imagine the heartbreak it could prevent now in sub Saharan Africa where over 2 1/2 million infants died last year.
Your description of why people use contraception these days is very accurate. It’s mainly for personal convenience. But in some parts of the world it means life or death.
I am perfectly aware that there is little, if any, reason for people to refrain from using contraception, aside from the teachings of the Catholic Church. There is the question of whether it is good for a society or nation not even to replace itself, let alone grow, but people typically don’t make those decisions on a macro-level — “will it be bad for society if I don’t have enough children?”.
One can well say “it commoditizes people, makes them into sex objects for their partners (this decision could be mutual, as in the Bob Seger song Night Moves — “I used her, she used me, but neither one cared, we were gettin’ our share…”), compromises our human dignity”, but I really don’t think people generally care about this sort of thing. These are not sentiments that you generally hear people expressing.
J
jgaw1234
Guest
I see your point but we did stand up this time, or at least most of us. Relevant radio reported that Biden got less than 1/3 of the Catholic vote and less than 1/4 of the Evangelical. That says a lot considering there are a lot of Catholics in the northeast blue area. I think most are starting to wake up to the seriousness of the attacks on our faith.
H
HarryStotle
Guest
I suppose God will be the ultimate judge of that question.MNathaniel:
He IS a Catholic. Not an “alleged Catholic”.
Perhaps he is a sinful Catholic, but he is Catholic.
No ifs, ands or buts.
It seems odd to me that there are moral and personal requirements for someone to be a Christian but none really to be a Catholic except to have been Baptized one some time in the past.
Yes, I have heard all the arguments to show what you say but there still seems something oddly off about it.
Perhaps because to legitimately BE something there is an implicit understanding that someone is actually or actively BEING that something to some degree or other rather than merely having had something done to you.
H
HarryStotle
Guest
You realize that anyone can come back, right? That doesn’t mean always a Catholic it means you can repent, and that’s open to everyone outside the Church.
Again, please quote for me where it specifically says “always a Catholic”.
[/quote]
Perhaps Jesus and Paul’s words concerning the Body of Christ might help.
Jesus said “I am the vine you are the branches.” Paul called those who are in the Church members (i.e., constituent parts) of the Body of Christ.
Once baptized we were baptized into the body of Christ. In a real sense we took on the essence of that body and became one with it.
So like a human arm, even after it has been cut off or severed from its body it is still a human arm. It doesn’t become something else. And if it remains viable and able to be reattached so much the better.
If it remains detached for a long enough time it will start to breakdown and become something else entirely - organic material - and no longer a human arm.
I suppose that while we remain alive on earth we can still be reattached to the Church and thus remain part of the body of the Church, i.e., Catholic. Perhaps after death we become that “something else entirely.”
So while alive we remain Catholic in the same sense (analogically) that a human arm remains human even if it is separated from the human body as long as reconnection is possible.
So once we are baptized into the Church and become Catholic we always remain Catholic as long as we can be reconnected to the Church.
Again, please quote for me where it specifically says “always a Catholic”.
[/quote]
Perhaps Jesus and Paul’s words concerning the Body of Christ might help.
Jesus said “I am the vine you are the branches.” Paul called those who are in the Church members (i.e., constituent parts) of the Body of Christ.
Once baptized we were baptized into the body of Christ. In a real sense we took on the essence of that body and became one with it.
So like a human arm, even after it has been cut off or severed from its body it is still a human arm. It doesn’t become something else. And if it remains viable and able to be reattached so much the better.
If it remains detached for a long enough time it will start to breakdown and become something else entirely - organic material - and no longer a human arm.
I suppose that while we remain alive on earth we can still be reattached to the Church and thus remain part of the body of the Church, i.e., Catholic. Perhaps after death we become that “something else entirely.”
So while alive we remain Catholic in the same sense (analogically) that a human arm remains human even if it is separated from the human body as long as reconnection is possible.
So once we are baptized into the Church and become Catholic we always remain Catholic as long as we can be reconnected to the Church.
Last edited:
H
halogirl
Guest
I have kept quiet about this on my social media but it’s really sad that the president elect seems to be pro abortion 
praying for the unborn today
praying for the unborn today- Status