Could the pope throw out the Divine Liturgy?

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Oh. OK. Then I must have read it in that “Maronites in History” book online. I will definitely have to find it now, so I can give you the full quote, and get your (name removed by moderator)ut on its trustworthiness. But perhaps by tomorrow, because I need to be off now?

Blessings

P.S. Once again, thank you so much for your scholarly knowledge of your Church.
I did a search on google and I found it in the Maronites in History by Moosa. I have read that book but I forgot that story.

malphono, I would be curious to hear your opinion of the perpetual union of the Maronites if you don’t mind. Do you believe we were always in communion with Rome?
 
I did a search on google and I found it in the Maronites in History by Moosa. I have read that book but I forgot that story.
I’ve heard of this Moosa character before, and from what I recall, he’s not all that reliable. In any case, though, would you mind providing the actual link? In my search all I could find was a truncated “preview” that didn’t touch modern history.
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jimmy:
malphono, I would be curious to hear your opinion of the perpetual union of the Maronites if you don’t mind. Do you believe we were always in communion with Rome?
Very briefly: for one thing, we have never been tainted by monophysitism, and we suffered at the hands of the non-Chalcedonians for just that adherence to orthodoxy. Personlly, I never did, (and never will), buy the “monotheltism” line expounded by the EO. That whole idea is rather typical of the EO and reeks of sour grapes. Further, they have never been able to support it satisfactorily. Other than the EO apologists, there seems to be general agreement that the Maronites were never “out of communion” despite contact having been severed for some centuries. From my perspective, I hold to that position while at the same time saying that being in “communion” does not mean being subservient, at least not in principle.

Does that help at all?
 
I’ve heard of this Moosa character before, and from what I recall, he’s not all that reliable. In any case, though, would you mind providing the actual link? In my search all I could find was a truncated “preview” that didn’t touch modern history.

Very briefly: for one thing, we have never been tainted by monophysitism, and we suffered at the hands of the non-Chalcedonians for just that adherence to orthodoxy. Personlly, I never did, (and never will), buy the “monotheltism” line expounded by the EO. That whole idea is rather typical of the EO and reeks of sour grapes. Further, they have never been able to support it satisfactorily. Other than the EO apologists, there seems to be general agreement that the Maronites were never “out of communion” despite contact having been severed for some centuries. From my perspective, I hold to that position while at the same time saying that being in “communion” does not mean being subservient, at least not in principle.

Does that help at all?
Here is the link to the book. It is on p.288.

books.google.com/books?id=8Ogp94y8CJgC&pg=PA288&lpg=PA288&dq=patriarch+arida+pope&source=bl&ots=CVABQlTiuD&sig=0NvnfsJv9S7T_fTyByizr9ZE1rI&hl=en&ei=l3pFSsuNI9WytwfdutnZBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

Yes, thankyou.
 
Hello Malphono,
Personlly, I never did, (and never will), buy the “monotheltism” line expounded by the EO. That whole idea is rather typical of the EO and reeks of sour grapes.
I have been registered here for a long time and I do not recall any Orthodox posting on the subject of Monothelitism in the Maronite community but me, so you must mean me.
Further, they have never been able to support it satisfactorily. Other than the EO apologists,
I first posted on the subject when I was a Roman Catholic, using only Roman Catholic sources for information. I primarily post at CAF, seldom anywhere else, and I do not recall discussing this on any other forum. I have not changed my position since, but the only reason it ever came up in any thread was because of a desire for intellectual honesty on my part. The myth was always brought up by someone else first, and I merely responded to that.

You should be able to find everything on the subject in the archives of this forum and it’s Eastern Christianities predecessor. I lack the energy and time to go into it.

To this day I am unaware of any information on the internet on that subject that has been an Orthodox source. I am not aware of any Orthodox who really care about the subject.

Sour grapes indeed :rolleyes:

Mythmaking abounds.
…there seems to be general agreement that the Maronites were never “out of communion” despite contact having been severed for some centuries.
That is likely the case, but it does not seem to jive with the facts. I cannot see why any truly religious person would care to be deliberately dishonest about the subject, but I can see how they could be deceived by incomplete facts or shallow reasoning. The Maronites were out of communion with the non-Chalcedonians and broke with the Melkites, who represented the Eastern Catholic church in the region.

History and religion are not subjects that are up for a vote, they are what they are.
 
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I have been registered here for a long time and I do not recall any Orthodox posting on the subject of Monothelitism in the Maronite community but me, so you must mean me.
I have definitely come across that issue before when I was not yet in communion with Rome. Some EO think the break with the Melkites was over monothelitism, I guess assuming that they were Chalcedonians. But they had to find a reason for the fact that there did not seem to be any communication between the Patriarch of Antioch and the Maronite patriarch. Hence, the monothelitism charge.
The Maronites were out of communion with the non-Chalcedonians
Then that means they were in communion with Rome.
and broke with the Melkites, who represented the Eastern Catholic church in the region.
How did they “break with the Melkites?” Was it theologically, or because the Maronites refused to come under the political/ecclesiastical yoke of the Byzantines? I have found that those who claim the Maronites were non-Chalcedonians base their theory completely on an argument from silence- the fact that they cannot find any communications with the Byzantine Melkite party during those centuries. Their only communications were with the bishop of Rome.

Blessings
 
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mardukm:
Oh. OK. Then I must have read it in that “Maronites in History” book online. I will definitely have to find it now, so I can give you the full quote, and get your (name removed by moderator)ut on its trustworthiness. But perhaps by tomorrow, because I need to be off now?
:cool: I’ll hang in. That item will be an interesting read.
FYI, Jimmy was able to provide the link, and yes, it was an interesting read. But there’s a bit more to the story that doesn’t quite seem to come through.

One thing is that the “hesitation” in Rome to confer the pallium was motivated by civil politics rather than an ecclesiastical issue. Briefly, a powerful but disgruntled bishop (who had designs on the Patriarchate himself) was involved. Of course I wasn’t there, but I doubt that the pallium issue would have occurred had Pietro Gasparri still been there. (Eugenio Pacelli became Secretary of State in 1930, which helps to explain both the pallium issue and certain other post-war events.)

As for the “trustworthiness” of the book, that’s hard to say. A quick read tells me it’s not bad, but without reading the whole thing, I have to reserve further comment.
 
Dear brother Malphono,
I’ve heard of this Moosa character before, and from what I recall, he’s not all that reliable. In any case, though, would you mind providing the actual link? In my search all I could find was a truncated “preview” that didn’t touch modern history.
Brother Jimmy gave you the link to the online book (from Google books). Let me provide the text here:

"So there was a conflict between the French authorities and the Maronite Patriarchate. When Anton Arida was elected patriarch in 1932, the Pope hesitated to send him the pallium, Indeed, the Vatican wanted to change the process of electing the Maronite Patriarch by Maronite bishops to that of having him chosen by the Vatican. However, the Maronite community registered great opposition.

Apparently, he obtained his information from another book: Kerr, David. The Temporal Authority of the Maronite Patriarchs 1919-1958. (P.H.d. diss.: St. Antony College, Oxford University, 1978). in passim. However, he does not actually give a direct quote, but makes his statement based merely on his impression from the book.

After I thought about your mention of HH Pope Pius XI of blessed memory, I did some research and you are indeed correct that Pope Pius had a good relationship with the Maronites (canonized some Maronite saints; instituted CNEWA for the benefit of Catholics in the Middle East). There does not seem to be any reason to believe, as you point out, that Pope Pius XI would have objected in any way to the election of Patriarch Arida. I surmise that the author confused the 1955 incident with the election of Patriarch Arida (since he can’t even give a page number for his claim from the book by David Kerr).

Further his attempt to connect the resistance of the Maronites to French hegemony with the Catholic Church is weak, at best, given the Catholic Church’s historical, Traditional, and current opposition to any sort of secular government interference in the affairs of the Church.

After reading several more excerpts from the Google books preview, it appears he is of the opinion that the Maronites were originally monophysite. In an earlier post, I assumed he was Maronite, but I think perhaps he is Syrian Orthodox. Reading his version of Maronite history makes me believe that those who deny that Maronites had not always been in communion with Rome base their “evidence” primarily (if not only) on a LACK of evidence- an argument from silence. I mentioned this in my previous post to brother Hesychios.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Hello Malphono, I have been registered here for a long time and I do not recall any Orthodox posting on the subject of Monothelitism in the Maronite community but me, so you must mean me.
Touchy, aren’t we?

Anyway, no, I was not referring to you. For that matter, nor did I mean any reference whatsoever to this forum.

For the rest, I’ll let mardukm’s comments stand. Oh yes, I could add a few things but I won’t. It wouldn’t be worth the time and effort.
 
Dear brother Jimmy,
What canon hasn’t been approved by Rome? I haven’t heard of this either. The Code was promulgated by the Pope.
I’m not sure if you adhere to the prescription of Apostolic Canon 34/35, so I want to ask you right now, do you agree with it? It appears that you don’t because everytime you come upon a matter that the Pope approves or confirms, you automatically complain that this proves absolute power.

Let me ask you this:
How do you interpret Apostolic Canon 34/35? Do you feel that the head bishop is merely a figurehead, has no real authority, and is merely the mouthpiece of his brother bishops? That seems to be the Eastern Orthodox view, but if you know anything about the Oriental Orthodox understanding, you will find that head bishops (i.e. Patriarchs) in the Oriental Tradition are a lot more than that. We may share a Synodal ecclesiology with the Eastern Orthodox, but our conception of our Patriarchs is a high Petrine position, not a low Petrine one.

Absolutist Petrine view: There is only one head bishop - the bishop of Rome. All other bishops of whatever grade are merely an extension of papal authority. Even the Ecumenical Council is merely an extension of papal authority. If there is a disagreement between the head bishop (i.e., the Pope) and his brother bishops, the head bishop’s will dominates to the exclusion of any other viewpoint. Anyone not agreeing is excommunicated.

High Petrine view: The head bishop has the same role as St. Peter had among the Apostles. The head bishop has true and proper plenary jurisdiction in his entire patriarchate (or, for the Pope, the entire Church), and has a unique authority among his brother bishops. He is bound by the principle of the unity of the Church, and the divine rights of his brother bishops, to always work with his brother bishops in all matters affecting the Church as a whole. He is also bound by those same principles to not interfere in the proper and ordinary jurisdiction of his brother bishops. If there is a disagreement between his brother bishops and himself, there must be constant exchange until agreement is reached, not that he can impose his singular will on all.

Low Petrine view: Every bishop is a successor of St. Peter. A head bishop has no true and proper plenary jurisdiction, but merely a local jurisdiction of his own See. He has no authority different from any of his brother bishops. At best, he is a spokesman for or representative of his brother bishops. If there is a disagreement between his brother bishops and himself, he must always concede to the will of the majority.

The Absolutist Petrine view is held by traditionalist Catholics. The High Petrine view is the understanding of the Vatican Council, the Ecumenical Councils, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Church of the East. The Low Petrine view is the understanding of the Eastern Orthodox Churches (as well as the Anglicans and the Old Catholics).

Which view do you hold? If you want to mix and match certain points from each category, go ahead and do so.

CONTINUED
 
CONTINUED:

Here is the apostolic constitution connected with the promulgation of the new Code of Canon Laws:

In promulgating this code today, we are fully conscious that this act stems from our pontifical authority itself, and so assumes a primatial nature. Yet we are no less aware that in its content this Code reflects the COLLEGIAL solicitude for the Church of all our brothers in the episcopate. Indeed, by a certain analogy with the Council itself, the Code must be viewed as the fruit of COLLEGIAL cooperation, which derives from the combined energies of experienced people and institutions throughout the whole Church.

In another post (perhaps in another thread, I forget) I pointed out to you that even though the Marian dogmas were decreed through the singular authority of the papacy ex cathedra, the means by which those dogmas came about were completely collegial. In fact, you have no example in the history of the Church to presume that the unique authority of the Pope translates to a purely solitary, absolutist exercise of power, do you?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Hi brother, 🙂
I have definitely come across that issue before when I was not yet in communion with Rome. Some EO think the break with the Melkites was over monothelitism, I guess assuming that they were Chalcedonians.
Why do you say some EO?

Are you assuming not one in communion with Rome shares this opinion?
But they had to find a reason for the fact that there did not seem to be any communication between the Patriarch of Antioch and the Maronite patriarch. Hence, the monothelitism charge.
I don’t really care, it’s an old issue that doesn’t concern me today. You may believe whatever you like on the subject.

I suppose based upon your position there never were Monothelites anywhere, is that a correct reading of your position?
Then that means they were in communion with Rome.
Of course! Until they broke with the Melkites.
How did they “break with the Melkites?” Was it theologically, or because the Maronites refused to come under the political/ecclesiastical yoke of the Byzantines?
Usually there is politics and phyletism mixed in with these things. For instance, I feel pretty certain that the only real difference between the Copts and the Greek Byzantines was cultural, not theological.

As to Monothelites, who knows whether they were motivated by anything but a desire for Truth?
I have found that those who claim the Maronites were non-Chalcedonians base their theory completely on an argument from silence- the fact that they cannot find any communications with the Byzantine Melkite party during those centuries.
I have never claimed that the Maronites were non-Chalcedonians, I do not know of anyone who has made the assumption, but perhaps I have not read as much on the subject as you.

What I remember reading on the subject was that Monothelitism was promoted by a Byzantine emperor. It was people loyal to the emperor (probably mostly Chalcedonians, in other words Orthodox-Catholics) who adopted Monothelitism. That was the theory related to in an article in the old Catholic encyclopedia. It sounds reasonable.
Their only communications were with the bishop of Rome.
When and how?
Blessings
Likewise always. 🙂
 
Touchy, aren’t we?
Touchy? No, I stand by what I write.
Anyway, no, I was not referring to you. For that matter, nor did I mean any reference whatsoever to this forum.
Where else have you seen this discussed? I’ll admit I don’t get around much anymore, but really I should think I would have come across that somewhere 🙂

You seem to be quick to take a potshot at the EO, yet I have never seen it discussed by Orthodox or published in Orthodox sources, perhaps because it is generally a Catholic-only subject. Your argument is with Catholic scholarship for the most part.

It looks very much like a straw man to me, a drive by on your part to take a gratuitous swipe at the Orthodox. That was the reason for my response here.

Michael
 
After reading several more excerpts from the Google books preview, it appears he is of the opinion that the Maronites were originally monophysite. In an earlier post, I assumed he was Maronite, but I think perhaps he is Syrian Orthodox. Reading his version of Maronite history makes me believe that those who deny that Maronites had not always been in communion with Rome base their “evidence” primarily (if not only) on a LACK of evidence- an argument from silence. I mentioned this in my previous post to brother Hesychios.
Having not only read Moosa’s book, but studied this issue extensively, I thought I should comment. I would like to preface that this very issue has caused me more emotional pain than any other I have dealt with in regards to my people. Bearing this in mind, I am not looking to push polemics or be an apologetic. I am trained as a historian (admittedly neither erudite nor brilliant), and it was as a historian that I went into the history of my people. No one ever wants to discover that their people were at one time heretics, no one ever wants to have to openly discuss the fact with pride. So, despite previous insinuations in the past, I am not here advocating the previous Monothelitism of the Maronites out of condescension or a desire to see my people as less than they are. My intentions are for an honest Maronite historiography, for both the past and the current. Malphono has spoken much (and rightly so) about the mutilated nature of our contemporary qorbono, and I believe it is the same attempt at dishonesty that he has properly shown to have crippled the Maronites currently that has hurt us as much in the past. We (as Maronites) need to start being honest about our entire history if we are to reclaim what is ours in future times. I don’t believe we will ever be faithful to ourselves or the decrees of Vatican II (properly, this time around) without sitting through our pride and admitting where we come from, what happened, and how we can grow from it.

First, the author of Maronites in History. Moosa was indeed a Maronite, trained at Colombia University, and spent some time practicing law in the Syrian Orthodox Religious Court in Mosul; whether or not he became Syriac Orthodox is unknown to me. I will be the first to admit that one of Moosa’s main tools is inference to come to some of his conclusions. Most of the time, however, he simply allows the historical documents that have been purposefully assumed throughout Maronite history to speak for themselves, as opposed to their previous dishonest treatment by the first Maronites historians (of these I am not necessarily speaking of Patriarch Douaihy). Moosa was one of the first authors to actually address the source material from which Maronite historiography has been created. Personally, I believe that Kamal Salibi in Maronite Historians of Medieval Lebanon provides a much more thorough, and less intense, account of the source material that bases the Maronite’s claim to perpetual orthodoxy with Rome, but nonetheless, it would simply be a cop out to demean Mr. Moosa’s attempts simply because of his veracity, current ecclesiastical affiliation, or level of academic rigor. Aziz Atiya, Professor of History at the University of Utah, himself a Copt and erudite historian on the Eastern Churches, provided us in 1968 a wonderful survey of the Eastern Churches (entitled A History of Eastern Christianity), including an account of the Maronite Church’s history, culture, and hierarchy. He speaks about the Maronites courteously, reverently, though entirely with honesty. It would be an appeal to an authority to simply write off his scholarship despite the brotherly love with which he expresses it simply because he is Coptic. This sort of attack has been a polemical tool utilized by Maronite historians themselves in creating their argument of perpetual orthodoxy by demeaning historical figures because they were not Maronite or that their simply existence countered the concept of perpetual orthodoxy. In fact, the majority of proponents against the perpetual orthodoxy have been Latins, as seen all the way up to the publication of the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1914. The complete change of heart by the Latins is relatively new, despite the views of a small amount of Popes after the thirteenth century. Even after then, one Pope is still quoted as calling the Maronites “heretics” in need of proper theology (and by that, Latin).

continued
 
continued

I would suggest to anyone before making conclusions about Moosa’s work from Google’s Book preview to actually read a copy first. You will find it is quite thorough, and his scholarship impressive, albeit presumptuous in some cases. Marduk, it will become more than evident that the lack of evidence you speak of regarding the Maronites is anything but. Also, it would be folly to take Moosa’s one book as the only argument against the perpetual orthodoxy of the Maronites. In fact, historically, the argument has been the complete opposite; Maronite historians had to provide to themselves and their Roman brothers arguments for their orthodoxy. As I said before, the best account I have personally read has been Salibi’s Maronite Historians of Medieval Lebanon. As opposed to Moosa’s work, he not only has in-text citations (a necessity missing from Moosa’s publication), but his knowledge and skill with the source material is without a doubt expert. He does admittedly admit in his preface a Monothelitsm of the Maronites, but does not simply gloss over inferences with support from history as Moosa did; rather he provides a critical analysis of his Monothelite hypothesis. IMO, Salibi provides textual criticism and mounds of actual textual citation within both the margins and footnotes that truly put traditional Maronite historiography to the test. Finally, and my last recommendation for the topic, would be to check-out through a loan system at your local university’s library the title The Romanization Tendency by Elias Hayek. This compilation of articles discuses the Romanization of a variety of rites and Churches, and the Maronites are no exception (I would simply recommend reading the entire book, it is quite fascinating). “The Romanization of the Maronite Rite” is the article that directly relates with this topic, in that it chronologically demonstrates a history of the communications between the Papacy and the Maronite Patriarchate. I have a copy in PDF if one is interested in obtaining it, simply PM me and we can proceed further. The article is quite illuminating on the actual interactions between the Maronite Patriarchs and Popes.

I would be willing to have a discussion regarding this topic, I’m all too familiar with the arguments against the perpetual orthodoxy of the Maronites, and it brings me no happiness to say that. If this conversation is indeed engaged, I assure you will find that it will be replete with anything but silence.
 
Where else have you seen this discussed? I’ll admit I don’t get around much anymore, but really I should think I would have come across that somewhere 🙂
The allegations of monothelitism among the Maronites has been discussed in a number of historical works. The allegations remain unproven.
You seem to be quick to take a potshot at the EO, yet I have never seen it discussed by Orthodox or published in Orthodox sources, perhaps because it is generally a Catholic-only subject. Your argument is with Catholic scholarship for the most part.

It looks very much like a straw man to me, a drive by on your part to take a gratuitous swipe at the Orthodox. That was the reason for my response here.
No, not a drive-by, not a pot-shot, not a swipe, none of it. Perhaps it would have been better said that “the allegations are often quoted by certain EO.” In any case, I’m not out for a fight, and am certainly not making negative accusations against the EO in general. I simply noted that I don’t buy the allegation.

That’s all I will say on the matter.
 
CONTINUED:

Here is the apostolic constitution connected with the promulgation of the new Code of Canon Laws:

In promulgating this code today, we are fully conscious that this act stems from our pontifical authority itself, and so assumes a primatial nature. Yet we are no less aware that in its content this Code reflects the COLLEGIAL solicitude for the Church of all our brothers in the episcopate. Indeed, by a certain analogy with the Council itself, the Code must be viewed as the fruit of COLLEGIAL cooperation, which derives from the combined energies of experienced people and institutions throughout the whole Church.

In another post (perhaps in another thread, I forget) I pointed out to you that even though the Marian dogmas were decreed through the singular authority of the papacy ex cathedra, the means by which those dogmas came about were completely collegial. In fact, you have no example in the history of the Church to presume that the unique authority of the Pope translates to a purely solitary, absolutist exercise of power, do you?

Blessings,
Marduk
I agree with AC 34. The problem is I don’t see that in the declarations of the western councils or in the statements of the popes. The Absolutist view is that which seems to be what is meant by the magisterial statements of the west. I support this view in these discussions because that is how I read the documents.

The exact workings of the patriarchate are not set in stone in my understanding and so both the low and the high petrine view as you explained them would be fine in my understanding.
 
Dear brother Yeshua,
I would be willing to have a discussion regarding this topic, I’m all too familiar with the arguments against the perpetual orthodoxy of the Maronites, and it brings me no happiness to say that. If this conversation is indeed engaged, I assure you will find that it will be replete with anything but silence.
I am so glad to see your handle here again.👍 I have always found your viewpoints honest and scholarly, despite some of our differences in opinion on the nature of ecumenism. I think this would be a GREAT topic to discuss - IN ANOTHER THREAD. I am thoroughly interested. Perhaps you can provide a link or post relevant excerpts in a thread to start the discussion.

To be clear, I was not making any comment on the monothelitism charge as it relates to Moosa. I was specifically discussing his claim that the Maronites were once monophysite. (or miaphysite, as it were). He discussed the monothelitism charge in his book, but I didn’t read that part. I only read the chapter “Were the Monks of the Monastery of Marun Chalcedonian?” The chapter was a practice on inference, and not a whole lot more.

In any case, the debate whether the Maronites were diophysite or miaphysite makes no great impression on me. The Catholic Church has already ruled, along with all the Oriental Orthodox Churches through their individual, formal Christological Agreements with the bishop of Rome, that we hold the same Faith, if not exactly the same theological formulations.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Hi brother, 🙂 Why do you say some EO?

Are you assuming not one in communion with Rome shares this opinion?
I don’t know about those in the Catholic communion. I’m just saying that I found out about it while in discussion with EO.
I don’t really care, it’s an old issue that doesn’t concern me today. You may believe whatever you like on the subject.
I wasn’t expressing my point of view. I was simply relating what I heard from the discussions I’ve had with some EO on the matter.
I suppose based upon your position there never were Monothelites anywhere, is that a correct reading of your position?
No. Though, in light of the common Christological agreements between CC and OO, I would give the benefit of the doubt to those who were ever charged with monothelitism. Of course, this does not detract from the fact that monothelitism (and monophysitism) is condemned by the CC, EO and OO.
Of course! Until they broke with the Melkites.
It depends on the reason they were not in communion with the Melkites. If it was due to the political tyranny of the Byzantine empire, then that would not necessarily break their communion with Rome.
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mardukm:
Their only communications were with the bishop of Rome.
When and how?
I am not a scholar on the matter. That is what Moosa stated in his book.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Does that mean you don’t want to answer the question?
Potshots? :rolleyes:
The point is, various individuals are objecting to the question altogether as somehow absurd. When in fact it is a perfectly reasonable question as shown by the example.
It is not reasonable.

The Catholic Encyclopedia article discusses the scope of Papal authority: immediate and comprehensive. The OP, however, considers a hypothetical exercise of that authority: throwing out the Divine Liturgy. To address the OP cogently, it is necessary to understand not simply the scope, but also the mechanics of the exercise of Papal authority. Here are three considerations.
  1. What do we learn form other documents of the Church? Diak, Aramis and others have referred to magisterial documents and canon law statements that are totally inconsistent with the Pope acting to “throw out of the Divine Liturgy”. If one ignores these other writings of the Church and just interprets words regarding authority in a vacuum, one is guilty of rank proof-texting.
  2. What are the facts of history? Again it has been pointed out that Rome has been a long-term advocate of our retention of Easter praxis. There have been some a few counter-examples noted; very few have been shown to be associated with Papal intervention. (And frankly, when words like “rape” are tossed about in such discussions, then posters have tipped their hands about their idle chatter.) Overall, however, the history is clear. The goal is to retain Eastern identity, and there has been little tampering against that goal from Rome - certainly little as compared with *analogous *tampering from Constantinople. Any EO fearfulness about the Pope’s throwing out the divine liturgy is not justified historically, and moreover, requires a denial of their own history.
  3. Where is faith in the Holy Spirit? If the Church subsists in the Catholic Church, and the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church, then why would there be any such fear? Can you imagine the Holy Spirit leading us to abandon the Divine Liturgy? I suspect that we would all agree that the answer is emphatically “no”. Thus, the very question asked contains an implicit attack on the Catholic Church: the Church does not subsist in it and the Holy Spirit does not guide it. If one agrees with the premise of that attack, then discussion of reunion and barriers against it are clearly disingenuous.
An ironic part of the discussion is that fact that there are far more complaints about the lack of immediate, local action taken Popes. For example, one anti-Catholic EO poster on the net, frequently wonders why the Pope didn’t force Ukrainian Greek Catholics, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, to accept the Quadripartite Commission . Well, guess what: the Pope is not an absolute dictator. So stop worrying about that.
 
I agree with AC 34. The problem is I don’t see that in the declarations of the western councils or in the statements of the popes. The Absolutist view is that which seems to be what is meant by the magisterial statements of the west. I support this view in these discussions because that is how I read the documents.
Several questions:
(1) Do you feel the ecclesiology of Vatican 2 properly reflects the Apostolic Canon 34?

(2) Is it correct to say that your real concern is with the ecclesiology of Vatican 1?

(3) You mention “the declarations of Western Councils.” No need to mention V1, but what other “Western Councils” are you referring to?

(4) You mention “statements of the popes.” Can you give a quote to 2 or 3 that you are referring to?

(5) What is it about the quote I gave from the apostolic constitution for the Code of Canon Law do you find to be “absolutist?” Remember your own claim - that the Pope can singularly, without anyone else, make decrees for the Church.

(6) If it can be demonstrated that the Pope’s actions/decrees are always collegial, and that this was the intent of Vatican 1, would you still maintain your absolutist understanding of Vatican 1?
The exact workings of the patriarchate are not set in stone in my understanding and so both the low and the high petrine view as you explained them would be fine in my understanding.
What part of the “workings of the patriarchate” do you feel are not set in stone? The Ecumenical Councils themselves asserted that Patriarchs have plenary jurisdiction in his ENTIRE Patriarchate, not just his own local episcopal see. The Ecumenical Councils themselves assert the necessity for the confirmation of head bishops, and not merely the will of the majority.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
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