Thanks for the link. I have developed an an argument that is intended to counter the materialist non-believer that is based on the assumption that universal space is discrete. When properly understood can shoot a hole in the very subtle six minutes of Krause’s presentation. His unspoken conclusion is that since space is filled with quantum mechanical activity, the universe can pop into existence, i.e., create itself.
Krause mentions two kinds of space, but he leads you to believe that the space of physics that is the foundation of the universe excludes the space that the bible describes. I believe both forms of space subsist concurrently. Discrete space that Krause talks about is the foundation of the universe and its 4 main physical elements (space,time, energy and matter). The preexisting nothingness that has the properties of continuous space, provides the OMNIPRESENT spiritual aspect of reality. It is from the preexisting nothingness (the Mind of God) that the universe and the space that defines its dimensions was created
It is the discrete space in which gravitational fields; zero-point energy, the Higg’s field and all sorts of other space-like aspects of science exist. For example ever try to “curve” continuous space in your mind, it’s like curving water. On the other hand, discrete space is easily curved in one’s imagination. Einstein’s curvature of space could only be accomplished with discrete space.
Here’s another idea to which I subscribe:
“Fredkin told me that he spent years trying to make Feynman take digital physics seriously, and was very pleased to see his ideas reproduced in this passage in Feyman’s book ! For an idea to be successful, you have to give it away, you have to be willing to let other people think that it theirs! You can’t be possessive, you can’t be jealous”… - Gregory Chaitin Meta Math, The Quest For Omega – pg. 90
Now I’ve go out and rake leaves.
Yppop
The only trees here which drop leaves are the almonds, but they’re still green until December, then blossom appears in January, so we don’t really get Fall.
You described your argument on another thread, but I never got my head round it. I can see the idea that we experience the shadow on the wall of Plato’s cave, but have trouble understanding the explanatory value in this case - your discrete shadow of your continuum just seems to complicate matters. But then Baptists are often
a posteriori, experience not theory, and for me personally “spiritual” is an aspect of how we interpret reality rather than something having an objective existence, so I’m not very good at that stuff.
Your mention of Feynman reminded me of his famous and most excellent poem. To me the poem is very spiritual even though it is strongly atheist, and I don’t know how it would fit in your definition:
*There are the rushing waves, mountains of molecules, each stupidly minding its own business, trillions, apart yet forming white surf in unison. Ages on ages, before any eyes could see, year after year thunderously pounding the shore as now. For whom, for what? On a dead planet with no life to entertain.
Never at rest, tortured by energy wasted prodigiously by the Sun, poured into space. A mite makes the sea roar. Deep in the sea all molecules repeat the patterns of one another till complex new ones are formed. They make others like themselves and a new dance starts. Growing in size and complexity, living things, masses of atoms.
DNA, protein, dancing a pattern ever more intricate. Out of the cradle onto dry land, here it is, standing: atoms with consciousness; matter with curiosity. Stands at the sea, wonders at wondering: I, a universe of atoms, an atom in the Universe.*
