Could the Universe have Created Itself?

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Peter_Plato said:
Fr. Barron has an interesting new video commentary on this very question.

youtu.be/1zMf_8hkCdc
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Interesting video.

‘‘The subsistent act of to be itself’’

🤷

But this does in a way encapsulate why I’m fascinated with philosophy but will never understand it or be even the most amateurish of amateur philosophers 😃

What I heard in the video is as and when science answers our questions, even if it does explain in full and incontestably the origin of the universe and all that is in it, which will have nothing to do with any kind of Divine Being, it will never be able to answer why the universe exists.

🤷

OK.

I agree with that.

I just think it’s a pointless question filled with pointless speculation that serves no practical purpose other than perhaps exercising the mind.

It seems to me that the answer from whatever faith you ask will always include something about it’s a demonstration of love from their Divine Being, be it God or whoever, and it offers the possibility of eternal life after earthly death.

None of which we can actually know on this earth.

Ever.

It just highlights to me once again that most of us, as a species, find it too unbearable to think that this one life is all we have.

I’ve always been fine with that.

In fact I’d go further and say I’m more than fine with that, I’m extremely happy about that.

It focuses the mind. 😃

Sarah x 🙂
 
atheistgirl said:
I just think it’s a pointless question filled with pointless speculation that serves no practical purpose other than perhaps exercising the mind.
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Lots of people say the question is pointless, and yet involve themselves in discussions of the question. Funny how that works, eh?
atheistgirl said:
It seems to me that the answer from whatever faith you ask will always include something about it’s a demonstration of love from their Divine Being, be it God or whoever, and it offers the possibility of eternal life after earthly death.
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On the contrary, in Hinduism, the supreme being doesn’t love man at all, and is just sort of dreaming things up by accident. Buddhism is atheistic, in that it lacks any belief in a supreme, divine being, and most of the old world paganisms had “gods” who were in no way loving to human beings, and viewed them as inferior creatures, to be played around with.
atheistgirl said:
None of which we can actually know on this earth.

Ever.
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Prove it. Now.

You admit to not understanding philosophy, yet you claim to make judgments on what can and can’t be known, and -that- is called “epistemology,” which is a -philosophical- discipline. If you’re going to dabble in philosophy, be ready to back up your conclusions with evidence.
 
Would someone mind explaining how the universe could have created itself and if you say that it always existed, then how could it have been eternally creating itself? It makes more sense to say that the universe requires a creator who simply always existed and who had the power and the intelligence to be eternally creating that which could not have been creating itself. Does a rock create itself? No, and neither can the universe.

Linus2nd
 
atheistgirl said:
😃

No science of the gaps here.

Just waiting and being amazed as we discover more and more with every day that passes.

There’s a ton of stuff we don’t yet understand.

Much better to say we don’t know, or understand yet than say a supernatural Being must be the answer.

But that’s just me 😃

Sarah x 🙂
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Why does it have to be either/or. Why not both/and?
 
It seems to me that time did not exist before the universe was created just as energy and matter did not exist. Space is nothing more than a void of nothingness. that being said, it energy and matter that takes up the space and time comes into play at the start of creation. Now the Big bang theory says that it banged but what banged, what caused it to bang, and also how does anyone realy know without a doubt that it was a Big bang. It could have been a little bang for all anyone knows. No one knows what was before the bang and science can only tell us what they think happened after the Big bang. for my money I believe God created te universe seen and unseen. How God did it is something that we will never know because it is and will always be beyond our comprehension.
 
**atheistgirl

Much better to say we don’t know, or understand yet than say a supernatural Being must be the answer.**

But you don’t really believe that, do you? 😉

You’ve already said you are an atheist, so you know a “supernatural Being” is not the answer.

How did you discover that scientifically? 😃
 
To Charlemagne II your post # 504 Sorry to say that I am not nor ever have been a ateist. I am a Catholic have been all my life and while I do like science as it can help to better understand the wonders of God’s creation, I will never believe that the universe created itself out of nothing.
 
I too would like to know just how the universe could have created itself out of nothing? It seems to me that if the universe did not yet exist how did t create itself. it seems to me that quamtum physic’s and it’s string teory does not explain that. If God or a Supreme Being did not create or does not exist , then how did the universe begin to exist? how did it create itself?
 
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink. It all depends on Grace and God gives it to everyone. But if it is rejected, will He continue to knock? " If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts as you did at Meribah, that day at Massah in the wilderness… " Psalm 95, 8

Linus2nd
 
**Linus

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.**

I like the other version too:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him think. :rolleyes:
 
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JamesCaruso:
Only if you conceive of it as not attached to your body, which unfortunately it is. But you do bring up a good point. After we die are we still subject to time?
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But it doesn’t have to be attached to my body, it just happens to be for the present, and will not be when I die.
To your apparently unrelated question, no.
 
mytruepower2 said:
Lots of people say the question is pointless, and yet involve themselves in discussions of the question. Funny how that works, eh?
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That’s just the nature of the beast.

Since the caves, we’ve always engaged ourselves in the most fanciful of stories, thrilling, beguiling engaging and challenging ourselves and each other.

We love it.

It’s part of what and who we are as a species.
On the contrary, in Hinduism, the supreme being doesn’t love man at all, and is just sort of dreaming things up by accident. Buddhism is atheistic, in that it lacks any belief in a supreme, divine being, and most of the old world paganisms had “gods” who were in no way loving to human beings, and viewed them as inferior creatures, to be played around with.
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Maybe I’m a Buddhist :eek:
Prove it. Now.
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Well, you prove beyond all doubt the existence of this supernatural Being, then prove it is Good, then prove it is the God of Christianity then prove it is more specifically the God as worshiped by Catholicism with it’s specific theology and understanding of God’s requirements from us, and we can do away with Faith altogether because we will know, as opposed to having faith to believe 🤷

But Faith is a gift and is required.

So my point stands - we will never know on this Earth.

Sarah x
 
**atheistgirl

With my Mythbusters Weird World of Water Kit, of course.**

Ha-ha. You can lead your horse to water but you can’t make him think. 😃
 
atheistgirl said:
Since the caves, we’ve always engaged ourselves in the most fanciful of stories, thrilling, beguiling engaging and challenging ourselves and each other.
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Irrelevant. This is a topic of philosophical debate, not a story. If you really thought the answer to the question was meaningless, would you waste your time pondering it?
atheistgirl said:
Maybe I’m a Buddhist :eek:
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Maybe you are.
atheistgirl said:
Well, you prove beyond all doubt the existence of this supernatural Being, then prove it is Good, then prove it is the God of Christianity then prove it is more specifically the God as worshiped by Catholicism with it’s specific theology and understanding of God’s requirements from us, and we can do away with Faith altogether because we will know, as opposed to having faith to believe 🤷
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Irrelevant again. You advanced the epistemic claim that we cannot know these things, and now you must back that claim up. Trying to shift it onto someone else is the logical fallacy known as “shifting the burden of proof,” and so long as this logical fallacy is (or at least seems to be) central to your argument, the argument is not a cogent one.
 
Could the Universe have Created Itself? Could God have begotten Himself? Did He not begot, rather, His self-knowledge by introspection? Can self-knowledge know himself? If he could, he would know his own consistency, for self-knowledge of God is consistent. But then, because of the second incompleteness theorem of Gödel, self-knowledge would be inconsistent: contradiction.

Self-knowledge of God = concept of God = Son of God. Son of God is not = God.
Son of God is eternal, by no means creature.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
**Linus

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.**

I like the other version too:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him think. :rolleyes:
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Ah well, thak goodness I don’t have to tell it in confession!

Linus2nd
 
Ryuji_Yamazaki said:
0 & 1.

Have a nice day.
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😃

Not even close 😃

All that was ever shown by this when it was looked at was that Godel’s maths was correct. 🤷

So, If God exists as a concept, then He must exist in reality, because that would be greater, and God is the greatest 🤷

But which God - The God of the Bible, the God we are told is jealous and possessive and angry?

I can conceive in my mind of a God that is above these base feelings.

Is my God bigger than yours? 🤷

Of course, it all hangs on accepting the starting axioms, which, quite clearly, are not self evident truths.

Sarah x 🙂
 
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