Could this be implying commendation of homosexuality?

[utunumsint]

I like the full set of paragraphs on this issue in the CCC. I would like to post them here for all to see in their full context especially the part in bold:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

**2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.**

I think this is the only identity available to a practicing catholic who has this inclination. We should also not celebrate such life choices when those who are actively choosing such a lifestyle ask us to celebrate it with them. That said, there are other aspects to a personal relationship apart from sexuality that must be celebrated. A specific one that we should encourage and celebrate in such relationships, is friendship. We must not fall into the trap of rejecting all other aspects of a person’s love for another because the aspect of “eros” is disordered. As C.S. Lewis said, there are four loves, and those with same sex attraction are called to friendship and agape. These ought to be recognized and celebrated in any relationship.

God bless,
Ut

 

[gntlmnr]

I like the full set of paragraphs on this issue in the CCC. I would like to post them here for all to see in their full context especially the part in bold:

Chastity and homosexuality

I think this is the only identity available to a practicing catholic who has this inclination. We should also not celebrate such life choices when those who are actively choosing such a lifestyle ask us to celebrate it with them. That said, there are other aspects to a personal relationship apart from sexuality that must be celebrated. A specific one that we should encourage and celebrate in such relationships, is friendship. We must not fall into the trap of rejecting all other aspects of a person’s love for another because the aspect of “eros” is disordered. As C.S. Lewis said, there are four loves, and those with same sex attraction are called to friendship and agape. These ought to be recognized and celebrated in any relationship.

God bless,
Ut

I am glad you quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church and you highlighted the section where it says that we are not supposed to show any signs of discrimination. I don’t want you to understand that I am encouraging anybody to celebrate the happiness of any gay couple, but I would like to put things in the proper perspective a little bit. Are we also not supposed to celebrate the happiness of cohabiting heterosexual couples, divorced and remarried couple, etc… either?

 

[Thorolfr]

You are speaking from textbook cases perspective, and I am speaking from a personal experience perspective. When I was growing up, there was no internet whatsoever. I never watched pornography. I never had sex with any men whatsoever when I was growing up, as a matter of fact, I never met any homosexual people when I was growing up, and I rarely heard the word homosexual being mentioned when I was growing up, and when the subject of homosexuality was brought up, it was in a very negative and vile context, nothing that would encourage you to be a homosexual. My attraction to men started as early as I can remember, but I never really knew how to interpret my feelings of attraction, and I never gave those feelings much attention until I was in my late teen years when I had a crush on a man, and I was faced with trying to explain to myself what those feelings were. Then I came to the conclusion that I was a homosexual by analyzing those feelings that I had all along, and I started asking myself as to why I never have those feelings towards women, and that’s how I cam to the conclusion that I was a homosexual. So I realized that I was homosexual without having any prior sexual experience with men whatsoever.

I think that your experience is similar to that of most gay men and meme’s contention that homosexuality is a learned behavior or is linked to pornography is not born out by the evidence. There are lots of gay men who grew up in perfectly normal families, did not experience any sexual abuse or look at pornography and became aware of their attraction to others of their own sex long before they actually had any kind of sexual encounter or even knew much about sexuality. For many gay men, too, the first feelings of attraction were not even overtly sexual but were more romantic in nature (i.e. having a “crush” on another boy). Also, according to the American Psychiatric Association:

What causes Homosexuality/Heterosexuality/Bisexuality?
No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice. Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.

psychiatry.org/lgbt-sexual-orientation

 

[utunumsint]

I am glad you quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church and you highlighted the section where it says that we are not supposed to show any signs of discrimination. I don’t want you to understand that I am encouraging anybody to celebrate the happiness of any gay couple, but I would like to put things in the proper perspective a little bit. Are we also not supposed to celebrate the happiness of cohabiting heterosexual couples, divorced and remarried couple, etc… either?

Actually, the quote says this: “Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” It does not say that every discrimination is to be avoided, only those that are unjust. Otherwise the Catholic church should be allowing same sex marriages.

But yes, I agree with you that we should not hold such standards in a hypocritical way.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Rau]

I am glad you quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church and you highlighted the section where it says that we are not supposed to show any signs of discrimination. I don’t want you to understand that I am encouraging anybody to celebrate the happiness of any gay couple, but I would like to put things in the proper perspective a little bit. Are we also not supposed to celebrate the happiness of cohabiting heterosexual couples, divorced and remarried couple, etc… either?

No, we should not be celebrating the cohabitation. But at least this situation is recoverable, despite this serious stumble. The situation can be put right and the two can become one in marriage. That prospect is a cause for hope.

 

[estesbob]

Several thoughts occurred to me in reading this forum.

The first is the question of SSA. There seems to some that the determination of whether one is homosexual versus heterosexual happens after engaging in the sex act. How strange is that line of thinking? If that were true, a person would have sexual encounters with a male and then a female and then sit back, compare the encounters and decide, “Well…I truly didn’t care for the act with the man, but the one with the female was great! So that’s my sexual orientation!”

Now that is just silly. A person KNOWS his or her sexual orientation long before having sex. (This is in normal encounters, not forced acts or pedophile acts, etc) and persons who are truly bisexual know that as well. The idea that I, as a woman, can look at another woman and think how sexually attractive she is does not make me a lesbian. I am simply seeing how beautiful she is and desirable she appears to men. It does not mean I want to have sex with her!

Now, another thought is the question of what is a person to do about his or her sexual attraction. If it is SSA, and the person is a faith filled person who believes in the truth of God and Jesus Christ, the person will not act upon the sexual desires, since the homosexual act is sinful. The PERSON is not sinful, but the ACT is sinful. Just as feeling attraction toward sexual activity with a child is not the sin, the acting upon the desire is the sin. “God does not make mistakes.” No - He does not. A Down Syndrome child is not a “mistake”. Ask any parent of that child.

The question was raised, well, then, should a homosexual/lesbian person live a life denied of sexual fulfillment? Yes. If they are Christians, they will. Sex is not “necessary” to live, as needing food, water or shelter are. The question was asked if there are heterosexual persons who are demanded to live without sex, as denial of sexual relationships is somehow seen as necessary. Yes, there are many heterosexuals who live without sex. Never. Ever. Virgins. How about priests, Brothers, Sisters, Friars, hermits and (wow—imagine this!) a chaste, virginal adult who has either chosen to live that way or has simply not found another person with whom they want to marry?

Lastly, should the OP be celebrating the same-sex relationship of the friend? Should we be happy when our friends are happy?

No one should be happy that another person is living in a sinful manner. No one should celebrate an act that is sinful even if it somehow satisfies that person’s desires. If I am diabetic, but eating cake makes me happy, who will celebrate and be happy for me? No one! … Why not? Cake makes me “happy” (fulfills my desire). It is because everyone knows if I keep eating cake, I will die! No one wants me to die out of fulfilling my “desires”. Can I be “happy” in life without ever, ever eating cake? Sure I can! Yes, cake is tasty, but I don’t need it to survive. Plenty of people besides just diabetics choose to never, ever eat cake.

Therefore, I want my friend to be happy and I want to celebrate when she is happy, but not if she is doing something I know will kill her. Homosexual acts will kill her soul by damning it to hell.

Now, please don’t go off on how I should not “judge” another, that the Bible says, “judge not, lest you be judged”. When you quote that verse, it does not take into account what Jesus was really saying about judging. If you read the rest of that Biblical text, you will read that Jesus is telling you that you should be careful that you will also be judged by the same “yardstick” so to speak. In other words, we judge others by God’s Laws…judge another when it is an action sinful to God, because we all are here to help each other get to Heaven!

I apologize for the long post, but I wanted to make all my points while they were fresh in my mind. My take on what the OP asks is therefore, she should NOT be “celebrating” that the friend is in a sinful relationship, even though it appears to be making her “happy”.

Welcome to CAF and what a great post!

 

[gntlmnr]

Actually, the quote says this: “Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.” It does not say that every discrimination is to be avoided, only those that are unjust. Otherwise the Catholic church should be allowing same sex marriages.

But yes, I agree with you that we should not hold such standards in a hypocritical way.

God bless,
Ut

Oh well, I was asking a very direct question, and you danced around my question without giving me a direct answer, and you diluted my question by bringing up the subject of “gay marriage” which has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about whether directly or indirectly.

FYI: I don’t believe in such a thing as “gay marriage”; so please focus more on what I asked.

 

[gntlmnr]

No, we should not be celebrating the cohabitation. But at least this situation is recoverable, despite this serious stumble. The situation can be put right and the two can become one in marriage. That prospect is a cause for hope.

Who told you that the gay couple situation is irrecoverable? How do you know for sure that the gay couple will not repent?

 

[gntlmnr]

Several thoughts occurred to me in reading this forum.

The first is the question of SSA. There seems to some that the determination of whether one is homosexual versus heterosexual happens after engaging in the sex act. How strange is that line of thinking? If that were true, a person would have sexual encounters with a male and then a female and then sit back, compare the encounters and decide, “Well…I truly didn’t care for the act with the man, but the one with the female was great! So that’s my sexual orientation!”

Now that is just silly. A person KNOWS his or her sexual orientation long before having sex. (This is in normal encounters, not forced acts or pedophile acts, etc) and persons who are truly bisexual know that as well. The idea that I, as a woman, can look at another woman and think how sexually attractive she is does not make me a lesbian. I am simply seeing how beautiful she is and desirable she appears to men. It does not mean I want to have sex with her!

Now, another thought is the question of what is a person to do about his or her sexual attraction. If it is SSA, and the person is a faith filled person who believes in the truth of God and Jesus Christ, the person will not act upon the sexual desires, since the homosexual act is sinful. The PERSON is not sinful, but the ACT is sinful. Just as feeling attraction toward sexual activity with a child is not the sin, the acting upon the desire is the sin. “God does not make mistakes.” No - He does not. A Down Syndrome child is not a “mistake”. Ask any parent of that child.

The question was raised, well, then, should a homosexual/lesbian person live a life denied of sexual fulfillment? Yes. If they are Christians, they will. Sex is not “necessary” to live, as needing food, water or shelter are. The question was asked if there are heterosexual persons who are demanded to live without sex, as denial of sexual relationships is somehow seen as necessary. Yes, there are many heterosexuals who live without sex. Never. Ever. Virgins. How about priests, Brothers, Sisters, Friars, hermits and (wow—imagine this!) a chaste, virginal adult who has either chosen to live that way or has simply not found another person with whom they want to marry?

Lastly, should the OP be celebrating the same-sex relationship of the friend? Should we be happy when our friends are happy?

No one should be happy that another person is living in a sinful manner. No one should celebrate an act that is sinful even if it somehow satisfies that person’s desires. If I am diabetic, but eating cake makes me happy, who will celebrate and be happy for me? No one! … Why not? Cake makes me “happy” (fulfills my desire). It is because everyone knows if I keep eating cake, I will die! No one wants me to die out of fulfilling my “desires”. Can I be “happy” in life without ever, ever eating cake? Sure I can! Yes, cake is tasty, but I don’t need it to survive. Plenty of people besides just diabetics choose to never, ever eat cake.

Therefore, I want my friend to be happy and I want to celebrate when she is happy, but not if she is doing something I know will kill her. Homosexual acts will kill her soul by damning it to hell.

Now, please don’t go off on how I should not “judge” another, that the Bible says, “judge not, lest you be judged”. When you quote that verse, it does not take into account what Jesus was really saying about judging. If you read the rest of that Biblical text, you will read that Jesus is telling you that you should be careful that you will also be judged by the same “yardstick” so to speak. In other words, we judge others by God’s Laws…judge another when it is an action sinful to God, because we all are here to help each other get to Heaven!

I apologize for the long post, but I wanted to make all my points while they were fresh in my mind. My take on what the OP asks is therefore, she should NOT be “celebrating” that the friend is in a sinful relationship, even though it appears to be making her “happy”.

I think your approach to the subject is very reasonable, but I would like to add few more points just as food for thought, and I am not encouraging anyone to engage in homosexual activity.

All those people that you mentioned who live chaste lives are people who, in varying degrees, they chose themselves to live that way, and it was not imposed on them. Sexual desire is born with us, and controlling our sexual desire is not as easy as you are portraying it, and comparing our sexual desire with a diabetic who craves sugar is not really a fair comparison at all, because sexual desire is far more complex and it involves many other feelings that accompany the sexual desire, and it is not simply a matter of having sex. Some people can handle celibate life better than others, and that’s why Saint Paul was suggesting for all people to live a celibate life, but he did admit that some people cannot exercise self-control in (1 Corinthians 7:8-9):

8 Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do,
9 but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.

So here we see that Saint Paul gave an option for people who cannot exercise self-control. What options do homosexuals have if they cannot exercise self-control?

Regarding quoting Jesus about “judging others”, I think you’re the one that is taking it out of context. The context of in which Jesus mentioned: do not judge, lest you be judged was in the case of the Pharisee and the tax collector. Now the tax collector had several violations against God’s Law.

So all of these points are just food for thought.

 

[Rau]

Who told you that the gay couple situation is irrecoverable? How do you know for sure that the gay couple will not repent?

You misunderstand me, or you failed to read to the end of my post. Yes, the gay couple may repent (and we can hope for that), but only by stepping back from the type of relationship they desire. In the case of the cohabitation man+woman, that can be corrected re-committing through marriage.

 

[gntlmnr]

You misunderstand me. Yes, the gay couple may repent (and we can hope for that), but the thing that appeared to some to be deserving of celebration and happiness - their finding of happiness in a sexually intimate relationship - can never be. That’s why I said the situation is irrecoverable - it can be undone, but not made right. In the case of the cohabitation man+woman, that can be corrected and made right.

and in the case of divorced and remarried couples?

 

[Rau]

and in the case of divorced and remarried couples?

A catholic acts wrongly to attempt re-marriage if their first marriage was valid. But there is at least a prospect, though no certainty, that the situation can be rectified.

There is nil prospect with the gay couple.

 

[estesbob]

Who told you that the gay couple situation is irrecoverable? How do you know for sure that the gay couple will not repent?

So if a friend of yours enters into a homosexual relationship how would you deal with it? What if it was one of your children?

 

[gntlmnr]

So if a friend of yours enters into a homosexual relationship how would you deal with it? What if it was one of your children?

It is not one of my children that would be homosexual. I am homosexual myself, and I am choosing to live a chaste life, but how would I handle other cases of homosexual relations? I certainly would suggest to them the Catholic choice, but I would not treat them any differently than I would treat heterosexual couples who are living in sin, but I am finding quite many people who want to have quite a different treatment for homosexuals.

I detest calling anybody “homophobic”, and I abhor the casual usage of that term, but when we are able to find a rational explanation for all sorts of sin except for the sin of homosexuality, then by definition that’s what homophobia is.

 

[estesbob]

It is not one of my children that would be homosexual. I am homosexual myself, and I am choosing to live a chaste life, but how would I handle other cases of homosexual relations? I certainly would suggest to them the Catholic choice, but I would not treat them any differently than I would treat heterosexual couples who are living in sin, but I am finding quite many people who want to have quite a different treatment for homosexuals.

I detest calling anybody “homophobic”, and I abhor the casual usage of that term, but when we are able to find a rational explanation for all sorts of sin except for the sin of homosexuality, then by definition that’s what homophobia is.

We are in agreement.

 

[utunumsint]

Oh well, I was asking a very direct question, and you danced around my question without giving me a direct answer, and you diluted my question by bringing up the subject of “gay marriage” which has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about whether directly or indirectly.

FYI: I don’t believe in such a thing as “gay marriage”; so please focus more on what I asked.

I apologize for that. Let me try again.

I think in each of the situations you provide, I would keep the goal in mind that the loving thing to do is to bring my brothers in line with the church’s moral teachings. Then I would ask myself, how best is this goal served? Is a hostile feeling boycott of such relationship celebrations (the ones you mentioned: cohabiting heterosexual couples, divorced and remarried couple) going to be in any way productive in bringing them into properly ordered relationships. In most cases, the answer is no. So what’s the best move to make then? I would say to develop the relationship. Love them for all that is good in their lives. Do not make your friendship with them conditional on their repenting. Because then they are God’s creations. He made them, warts and all, and he sustains them in existence. He loves them, and we can do nothing less. If there are direct conversations about their relationship, or if they invite me to a celebration that specifically focuses on the problematic aspect, then I would have to consider the consequences of attending carefully.

I also have a duty to others. My actions not only impact the couples in question, but also those near me. Will my attending cause them scandal? Will they think I am endorsing their disordered relationship? In my case, I am pretty sure that most people know where I stand on such issues, so I don’t think I would cause scandal.

Hopefully this answers your question more directly. I have two cousins who have come out. My first cousin died last year suddenly of heart failure before turning 40. I pray for her every mass, and I believe God will have mercy on her. But I am not happy with how our relationship developed. There was always a great deal of tension between us at family reunions, at her introducing her partner. Even before she came out, I never had a strong relationship with her, not because there was any animosity there, its just I never saw her often enough. But I am living a very catholic life, with 5 going on 6 kids, very shocking to my extended family. They know my position on same-sex marriage. But it has been hard to build bridges, although I tried as best I could.

I have just recently discovered that a much younger male cousin has come out. I hope I can do a better job with him. He is a very intelligent, kind, and gentle man.

I also had a cousin who married a divorced woman. My wife and I considered not attending, but after a conversation with my local priest, we decided that the fallout was not worth it.

God bless,
Ut

 

[gntlmnr]

Thank you all for your answers. I have posted quite a bit in this thread, and I would like to take a rest for a while, so I will leave with something for you to think about. I am a 60 year old homosexual. My main issue in life and my main problem was the life of isolation that I lived and not the lack of sex. I am not too sexual in my nature anyway. So please keep that in mind when you meet homosexuals.

 

[gntlmnr]

I just remembered this story, and I thought you might like to hear it. I am originally from Lebanon. I lived in the US for about thirty years, but now I am back in Lebanon. A couple of years ago, I was waiting for my turn in my psychiatrist’s office, and there was a middle aged Druze man with his son waiting for the psychiatrist as well. (the Druze are a Muslim religious sect). The son was in his early twenties. The son was very silent and he seemed to be disconnected from what was going on around him. The father seemed like a very traditional conservative member of the Druze sect, and he even was dressed in a very traditional Druze attire, which told me that he may not have been from Beirut, but he was rather from a rural area in Lebanon.

The father started talking to me, and he was trying to politely inquire about the purpose of my visit to the psychiatrist. I told him simply that I was dealing with a personal problem. So he went on to tell me about his son, and he started crying. He said: My son, as you can see, is a very handsome young man. He is very intelligent, and he was doing well in school. I give him almost anything he asks me, and I love him very much. Suddenly, he started falling deeply into depression for no obvious reason. I tried to talk to my son to find out what could possibly be bothering him, but he never tells me anything at all, and I am totally confused, and I have no idea how to deal with this problem. They told me that this psychiatrist is a good one, so this is why I am bringing him here. I hope that this psychiatrist can resolve my son’s problem, and I am willing to do anything to resolve my son’s problem, and he was really crying.

Here in Lebanon the subject of homosexuality is not talked about very much, so there is not much awareness about homosexuality in Lebanon.

I said in my heart: Oh! I know exactly what your son’s problem is, because I went though that phase myself, but I am afraid to tell you what your son’s problem is, because I am afraid that you would throw him from the highest building in Beirut.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

It is not one of my children that would be homosexual. I am homosexual myself, and I am choosing to live a chaste life, but how would I handle other cases of homosexual relations? I certainly would suggest to them the Catholic choice, but I would not treat them any differently than I would treat heterosexual couples who are living in sin, but I am finding quite many people who want to have quite a different treatment for homosexuals.

I detest calling anybody “homophobic”, and I abhor the casual usage of that term, but when we are able to find a rational explanation for all sorts of sin except for the sin of homosexuality, then by definition that’s what homophobia is.

This makes me so sad. It’s very true though.

 

[D0UBTFIRE]

i just remembered this story, and i thought you might like to hear it. I am originally from lebanon. I lived in the us for about thirty years, but now i am back in lebanon. A couple of years ago, i was waiting for my turn in my psychiatrist’s office, and there was a middle aged druze man with his son waiting for the psychiatrist as well. (the druze are a muslim religious sect). The son was in his early twenties. The son was very silent and he seemed to be disconnected from what was going on around him. The father seemed like a very traditional conservative member of the druze sect, and he even was dressed in a very traditional druze attire, which told me that he may not have been from beirut, but he was rather from a rural area in lebanon.

The father started talking to me, and he was trying to politely inquire about the purpose of my visit to the psychiatrist. I told him simply that i was dealing with a personal problem. So he went on to tell me about his son, and he started crying. He said: My son, as you can see, is a very handsome young man. He is very intelligent, and he was doing well in school. I give him almost anything he asks me, and i love him very much. Suddenly, he started falling deeply into depression for no obvious reason. I tried to talk to my son to find out what could possibly be bothering him, but he never tells me anything at all, and i am totally confused, and i have no idea how to deal with this problem. They told me that this psychiatrist is a good one, so this is why i am bringing him here. I hope that this psychiatrist can resolve my son’s problem, and i am willing to do anything to resolve my son’s problem, and he was really crying.

Here in lebanon the subject of homosexuality is not talked about very much, so there is not much awareness about homosexuality in lebanon.

I said in my heart: Oh! I know exactly what your son’s problem is, because i went though that phase myself, but i am afraid to tell you what your son’s problem is, because i am afraid that you would throw him from the highest building in beirut.