Could you please explain Eastern Catholicism?

[rinnie]

One thing that complicates it is that there isn’t any one date that we can point to for when the schism began. The date most commonly given is 1054, which is the year that Cardinal Humbert excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople, Michael Cerularius. But some would say that excommunication wasn’t valid, and that the schism didn’t actually begin until the Council of Florence in the 15th century. Others would say that Rome and Constantinople weren’t in full communion for a century or so before 1054, so that’s when the schism should be dated from.

I have also seen (a number of times, on the internet) the claim that prior to the Protestant reformation, all Christians were Catholic. This, to me, is at best a misleading statement – in order for it to be true, you have to define “Catholic” to mean “all Christians who aren’t Protestant” (i.e. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Old Catholics, etc.) but that just isn’t the way we usually define the term.

Now see Peter that would be the way I would probally define it, even today. Its like you are either Catholic or you are not. If you are not Catholic you would be protestant. Protestant to me would be any other Religion, but being a Christian, but not being Catholic. Because wasn’t everyone prior to the Protestant reformation that were Christians considered Catholic. I was taught that the first Church that Jesus started was the Catholic Church and to follow Jesus you were considered Christian. So would you not have to be considered Catholic? I was taught it wasnt until the Protestant reformation that the Catholic was dropped.

 

[rinnie]

Because also Peter the Pope said that in order for you to find a true Church it must have the sacraments, and be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. He said if you have all of them, you have the true Church. Dont get me wrong I follow the Roman Catholic Church because I believe we should follow the Pope. And I believe it to have all of the above, and be the true Church.

 

[Peter_J]

Now see Peter that would be the way I would probally define it, even today. Its like you are either Catholic or you are not. If you are not Catholic you would be protestant. Protestant to me would be any other Religion, but being a Christian, but not being Catholic. Because wasn’t everyone prior to the Protestant reformation that were Christians considered Catholic. I was taught that the first Church that Jesus started was the Catholic Church and to follow Jesus you were considered Christian. So would you not have to be considered Catholic? I was taught it wasnt until the Protestant reformation that the Catholic was dropped.

Well, for me personally the word “Catholic” without qualifier means “Roman Catholic” (i.e. “in full-communion with Rome”). On the other hand, “catholic” (with a small-c) to me includes RCs, EOs, PNCC, Old Catholics, etc.

However, if someone asks me my religion I’ll say “Roman Catholic” rather than just “Catholic”, so that there isn’t any confusion.

 

[rinnie]

Well, for me personally the word “Catholic” without qualifier means “Roman Catholic” (i.e. “in full-communion with Rome”). On the other hand, “catholic” (with a small-c) to me includes RCs, EOs, PNCC, Old Catholics, etc.

However, if someone asks me my religion I’ll say “Roman Catholic” rather than just “Catholic”, so that there isn’t any confusion.

Oh I totally agree with you, I also say Roman. That is what i was all of my life. I really never understood there was such a difference until the last few years. Its like you are Roman Catholic and you go to the same Church all your life you feel everyone is also. It is just recently I am learning otherwise, But to me I still have to listen to the Pope all the way. To me he is still the boss. No matter what if he says it in my book thats the way it is!

 

[Formosus]

Well thats not really the most accurate definition of papal infallibility . Vatican I and lumen gentium from VII would be documents that I suggest you read rinnie .

I also wouldn’t consider Eastern Orthodox , Oriental Orthodox, or Assyrian Church of the East as being protestant. Protestant means its a group of non Catholic christians that espouse ideas stemming from the protestant reformation. There werea few other pre protestant heretics (like Wycliffe and the waldenesians) that I would also include under Protestantism since they follow similar ideas.

 

[rinnie]

Well thats not really the most accurate definition of papal infallibility . Vatican I and lumen gentium from VII would be documents that I suggest you read rinnie .

I also wouldn’t consider Eastern Orthodox , Oriental Orthodox, or Assyrian Church of the East as being protestant. Protestant means its a group of non Catholic christians that espouse ideas stemming from the protestant reformation. There werea few other pre protestant heretics (like Wycliffe and the waldenesians) that I would also include under Protestantism since they follow similar ideas.

Im not sure i understand isnt all of the above Catholic. Just not Roman Catholic? If so I would not consider them Protestant either. But I would consider any Religion not Catholic Protestant.
Because now dont get me wrong I dont undertand all of their (rules lets say) but those Church’s also are pretty much on the same page as the Roman Catholic, Oh i understand there are some differences but all in all dont we all follow the same doctrine. Believe the same things, like the way we see the bible and the Eucharist and all. And dont we have the same Bible? (please understand im not being smart just asking).

Its just I feel Roman Catholic is the Church that Peter started, and I feel that the Pope is carrying it on. I just believe that he is the one in charge is all. I feel that he is who i should go by. I understand others feel differently and thats okay for them but not me. See what I mean. In my family when in doubt do what the Pope says. I understand he is not alone, he has Bishops, etc, but in my eyes he does have the last say. Just my way, Trust me i get picked on constantly for it. People say if the Pope told you to jump off the bridge would you? I say i just might do that. I believe that God speaks to us through him, and thats who i listen to.

 

[Aramis]

Well, for me personally the word “Catholic” without qualifier means “Roman Catholic” (i.e. “in full-communion with Rome”). On the other hand, “catholic” (with a small-c) to me includes RCs, EOs, PNCC, Old Catholics, etc.

Technically, Roman Catholic means ONLY the Roman Church Sui Iuris.

the members of the various Eastern Rite Churches in Union with Rome are Catholic, but not Roman.

The EO, Assyrians, Oriental Orthodox, PNCC, Old Catholics, and their ilk are not Catholics, in the sense of being part of the Church in Union, but all of them have valid sacraments and apostolic succession.

In the case of the EO, ACE, and OO, they even have licit sacraments… They lack only union with Rome for truly being Catholic.

 

[Ghosty]

Technically, Roman Catholic means ONLY the Roman Church Sui Iuris.

If you want to get REALLY confusing, it’s actually the Melkite Catholic Church which is “Roman Catholic”; the other is the Latin Church.

For those who don’t know what I’m talking about, the Melkite Catholic Church was, and is, referred to as “Roum (Roman) Katolik”, not because of its connection with Rome, but because of its connection with New Rome, Constantinople and the Roman Empire which continued to last until the 15th century (Eastern Orthodox are called “Roum Ortodox”, incidentally). What we call Roman Catholics in English are called “Lateens”, and the Code of Canon Law even refers to it as the Latin Church.

Confusing, no?

Peace and God bless!

 

[Peter_J]

Im not sure i understand isnt all of the above Catholic. Just not Roman Catholic? If so I would not consider them Protestant either. But I would consider any Religion not Catholic Protestant.

Yes, that’s how I understood what you were saying. Nevertheless, this brings up an important point, namely that if you say “All Christians who aren’t Protestant are Catholic”, then people are very likely to think that either:

1. you’re completely unaware of the Eastern Orthodox, PNCC, Old Catholics etc. or
2. you count all Christians who aren’t in full communion with Roman as “Protestant”.

Of course if you explain it a little (as you have here), e.g. if you say “I count all non-Protestant Christians as Catholic, regardless of whether they are in full communion with the Pope or not”, then it won’t be a problem.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, that’s how I understood what you were saying. Nevertheless, this brings up an important point, namely that if you say “All Christians who aren’t Protestant are Catholic”, then people are very likely to think that either:

1. you’re completely unaware of the Eastern Orthodox, PNCC, Old Catholics etc. or
2. you count all Christians who aren’t in full communion with Roman as “Protestant”.

Of course if you explain it a little (as you have here), e.g. if you say “I count all non-Protestant Christians as Catholic, regardless of whether they are in full communion with the Pope or not”, then it won’t be a problem.

Yeah thats how I see it too.

 

[Formosus]

Yeah thats how I see it too.

Thats not a correct understanding of the Catholic Church then. the Orthodox churches are separated brethern, not members of the Catholic Church. They may be really really close but that doesn’t mean they are.

 

[Peter_J]

As I’ve said before, I personally like to use the term “catholic” (note the small-c) to denote all Christians belonging to a traditional church with valid sacraments – whether they be in full communion with Rome (LC or EC), or Eastern Orthodox, or Old Catholic, etc.

 

[rinnie]

As I’ve said before, I personally like to use the term “catholic” (note the small-c) to denote all Christians belonging to a traditional church with valid sacraments – whether they be in full communion with Rome (LC or EC), or Eastern Orthodox, or Old Catholic, etc.

See Peter thats pretty much that way that Father explained it to me also.

 

[Formosus]

But being “catholic” is not the equivalent of being “Catholic”. Its oversimplifying things to make only the distinction of Catholic or Protestant. Orthodox, while having true sacraments and at times licit sacraments, are still not in union with the Catholic Church, but they are not protestants since that deals with a wholly illegitimate revolution in Christian thought.

 

[rinnie]

But being “catholic” is not the equivalent of being “Catholic”. Its oversimplifying things to make only the distinction of Catholic or Protestant. Orthodox, while having true sacraments and at times licit sacraments, are still not in union with the Catholic Church, but they are not protestants since that deals with a wholly illegitimate revolution in Christian thought.

I think your best bet would be talk to your priest about it. My priest told me as long as they have all if the sacaments they are considered a Catholic Church. Also in the CCC the pope also says as long as the Church has all of the sacaraments also. So I dont know?

 

[Ghosty]

I think your best bet would be talk to your priest about it. My priest told me as long as they have all if the sacaments they are considered a Catholic Church. Also in the CCC the pope also says as long as the Church has all of the sacaraments also. So I dont know?

I think the best term would simply be Church, rather than Catholic Church, since Catholic in this case indicates the Communion to which the Church belongs. It’s absolutely true that they are real Churches, however, and that is the technical term used by the Catholic Communion to refer to genuine Apostolic bodies; other groups, like Protestant communities, are not Churches even if they use that term.

Peace and God bless!

 

[rinnie]

I think the best term would simply be Church, rather than Catholic Church, since Catholic in this case indicates the Communion to which the Church belongs. It’s absolutely true that they are real Churches, however, and that is the technical term used by the Catholic Communion to refer to genuine Apostolic bodies; other groups, like Protestant communities, are not Churches even if they use that term.

Peace and God bless!

good way of putting it. I can agree with that.

 

[Aramis]

Canon law (both Roman and Eastern Catholic) provides explicitly for the Orthodox, and implicitly for the ACE, PNCC, and Old Catholics, that they have all sacraments valid, and may receive 3 catholic sacraments freely if they approach of their own will: Eucharist, Confession, and Anointing. They already have valid batism and confirmation, so those are out. That leaves marriage and holy orders: both valid, but neither routinely received across the Catholic/Non-Catholic division. (Some rare cases have all the prep for ordination done in a sister church, but the ordination itself is done in the church to be served). Marriage is recognized across the boundary as well, and in some cases (ACE & Chaldean, Armenian Catholic and Armenian Apostolic Church, Syrian Catholic & Syrian Orthodox) the boundary is crossable.

 

[mersch]

Good Morning,

Ok, so where do you find the eastern catholic churches, or ones who are in communion with Rome? Is there a website that lists them by geographical location? I live in the kansas city area.

Thank You

 

[Patchunky]

You can try

St. Luke Byzantine Catholic Church
11413 Chicago St
Kansas City, MO 64127
(816) 231-7100

Hope this helps…