Could your Jesus be the Messiah?

[DPMartin]

Even if we consider Jesus’ betrayal as the start of His progression into the “heart of the earth” His actual time in the heart of the earth would still begin at the moment of His actual entombment. The parallel is clearly that as Jonah was “entombed” in the whale’s belly three days and three nights, Jesus would likewise be entombed “in the heart of the earth” three days and three nights.

Mailman

thanks for the reply

God looks to the earth through man, so in God’s view, not our view, what is the heart of the earth? When God made man did He not make man of the dust? And it is the living soul, not the heart, nor mind, nor body, that is of the breath of God so in this, what is the heart “of the earth” in God’s view? Considering that after he made man he gave man dominion in the earth. You dwell in the earth that which is made of earth; and what is the heart of the earth? Does not God see the hearts of man?

The hour that the Lord Jesus was given into the hand of man.

Mat 26

51: And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest’s, and smote off his ear.
52: Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53: Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54: But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
55: In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
56: But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

This happen when? And if it was not the time, it certainly would not have happen. The earth, of itself, hath no heart but mankind. Where were all the hearts that went before the time that Jesus came? And all the rest are they not in flesh made of earth? And when it was first learned that he was risen why did he say that he should not be touched for he was yet to go to the Father?

You must consider why is it that Jesus was beaten and wiped beyond recognition and then hanged on the cross at the hand of man, as a result of what is in the heart of man. Was acceptable to God, the will of God the Father for the salvation of man. For told when the subject of God’s heart and man’s heart was dealt with by God.

Gen:6:5: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen:6:6: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Gen:8:21: And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Gen:9
5: And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
6: Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

And note, when you look to something that is in your own image, you look to see yourself therein.

The heart of the earth is man not the earth, therefore the physical location of “under ground” so to speak, is a preconceived notion, not the Truth, when it comes to what is the heart of the earth.

 

[Mailman]

You said…“Notice that no one witnessed the actual resurrection itself”.

Exactly ^^^

Jesus could have gotten up and walked away for all we know.

Yes, He could have. But He would not have gotten up until the three days and nights have passed since He would have to make good on His promise of an only sign which will prove He is the promised Messiah.

 

[Mailman]

LOL…YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT THE EARLY CHRISTIANS WHO WERE FOR THE MOST PART JEWS DIDNT KNOW HOW TO COUNT ROFL
AND THEREFORE BLEW THE UNDERSTANDING WHO THE MESSIAH WAS LOL …WHEW.

thanks for clearing that up

How do you know the primitive Christians believed on a Friday-to-Sunday death and resurrection?

 

[Mailman]

So where do you find “your Jesus” as distinct from “my Jesus?” And how many other things do you think you’ve discovered that everyone else is wrong about?

The Jesus of the Bible died, was buried, and was resurrected “AS HE SAID” (Matt. 28:6). Since He said He would be three days and three nights in the grave before resurrecting, that is exactly what happened to the biblical Jesus – He was “three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

“… he was buried, and that he rose again ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES” (1 Cor. 15:4).

As for your other question, no, I’ve not discovered anything [on my own] that everyone else is wrong about. What I know, I learned about them from God’s Church. And sadly, I’ve learned that there are many, many more things the world is wrong about.

 

[Mailman]

“An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign;
First, consider this,so it does not apply to you,let us not label ourselves “evil and adulterous”

…and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12:38-40).
My bible (Good News) does not say three nights, but three days and i believe that was fulfilled. even in Jonah (1:17) “…a large fish swallowed Jonah, and he was inside the fish for THREE DAYS AND NIGHTS”,three nights not specified.

Jesus did spend three complete days in the “depths of the earth”, John 20:19 …it was late that sunday evening…" this was when he appeared to the disciples.

If you believe in the Baptism of Jesus,and events during the baptism,and the words spoken thus "this is my dear son with whom i am pleased"
what more do we need, but Faith “…to be sure of things hoped for, to be CERTAIN of the things we cannot see”
Have you ever been given something by Jesus, if you have then why do you still question?

The Good News Bible is one of the more modern translations of the Bible and should not be solely relied upon because its translation is meaning-for-meaning rather than word-for-word. It may be easier to understand but the intended meaning could be lost in the translation if the translator fails to understand the original text.

In the “official” Catholic Bible, the Douay-Rheims, that verse in Jonah is translated as: “… and Jonas was in a belly of a fish for three days and three nights.” The original Hebrew is “shalosh yom shalosh layil” – three days and three nights. And on Matthew 12:40, it reads: “For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights [Greek, *treis hemera treis nux] …”

BTW, I checked my Good News translation and the Jonah verse says, “three days and three nights.” Only in Matthew does it say “three days and nights.”

I do not question the authenticity of the Christ of the Bible. What I question is the belief of professing Christians which casts doubt upon Christ’s Messiahship.

 

[Mailman]

I think our good Mailman is going to tell us that the Sabbath fell on a Friday that year (14th of Nisan?) and that Jesus died on a Thursday.

Am I spoiling your surprise?

No, you’re not. And I’m not intending to surprise anybody.

Jesus died on Passover day, the very same day the Passover had been slain every year. That isn’t surprising because the Passover lamb was a type of Christ, the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Christ is our Passover, sacrificed for us (1 Cor. 5:7).

 

[Mailman]

Mailman

thanks for the reply

God looks to the earth through man, so in God’s view, not our view, what is the heart of the earth? When God made man did He not make man of the dust? And it is the living soul, not the heart, nor mind, nor body, that is of the breath of God so in this, what is the heart “of the earth” in God’s view? Considering that after he made man he gave man dominion in the earth. You dwell in the earth that which is made of earth; and what is the heart of the earth? Does not God see the hearts of man?

The hour that the Lord Jesus was given into the hand of man.

Mat 26

51: And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest’s, and smote off his ear.
52: Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53: Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54: But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
55: In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
56: But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

This happen when? And if it was not the time, it certainly would not have happen. The earth, of itself, hath no heart but mankind. Where were all the hearts that went before the time that Jesus came? And all the rest are they not in flesh made of earth? And when it was first learned that he was risen why did he say that he should not be touched for he was yet to go to the Father?

You must consider why is it that Jesus was beaten and wiped beyond recognition and then hanged on the cross at the hand of man, as a result of what is in the heart of man. Was acceptable to God, the will of God the Father for the salvation of man. For told when the subject of God’s heart and man’s heart was dealt with by God.

Gen:6:5: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen:6:6: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Gen:8:21: And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Gen:9
5: And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
6: Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

And note, when you look to something that is in your own image, you look to see yourself therein.

The heart of the earth is man not the earth, therefore the physical location of “under ground” so to speak, is a preconceived notion, not the Truth, when it comes to what is the heart of the earth.

Thanks, too, for sharing your view and for a well-thought of reply.

I can see your point. But I think the phrase “in the heart of the earth” must be understood in light of other Scriptures and statements of Jesus concerning His death and resurrection.

Many Scriptures show that Jesus would have to be killed (physically) first before the three-day count begins. Notice a few of these Scriptures.

“… The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day” (Mark 9:31). Notice that only AFTER Jesus has been [physically] killed shall he “rise the third day.”

“And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him” – but notice that only when He shall be physically killed shall He rise the third day – “and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again” (Mark 10:34).

“Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain” – be slain first – “and” – and only then – “be raised the third day” (Luke 9:22).

“And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death:” – notice Jesus is put to death first before the three-day count begins – “and the third day he shall rise again” (Luke 18:33).

But the exact start of the three-day period is revealed in this passage in 1 Corinthians 15:4:

“And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”

This passage makes clear what Jesus meant by the phrase “in the heart of the earth”, don’t you think?

 

[DPMartin]

Thanks, too, for sharing your view and for a well-thought of reply.

I can see your point. But I think the phrase “in the heart of the earth” must be understood in light of other Scriptures and statements of Jesus concerning His death and resurrection.

Many Scriptures show that Jesus would have to be killed (physically) first before the three-day count begins. Notice a few of these Scriptures.

“… The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day” (Mark 9:31). Notice that only AFTER Jesus has been [physically] killed shall he “rise the third day.”

“And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him” – but notice that only when He shall be physically killed shall He rise the third day – “and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again” (Mark 10:34).

“Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain” – be slain first – “and” – and only then – “be raised the third day” (Luke 9:22).

“And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death:” – notice Jesus is put to death first before the three-day count begins – “and the third day he shall rise again” (Luke 18:33).

But the exact start of the three-day period is revealed in this passage in 1 Corinthians 15:4:

“And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”

This passage makes clear what Jesus meant by the phrase “in the heart of the earth”, don’t you think?

Mailman

thanks for the reply

God placed man between Him and the earth, why? Because God put man there, that is man’s place before God, in God’s Presence. God breathed on man and man became a “living soul” in the earth. And what is next to the soul, but the heart?

The Lord God specifically reiterates though out the Bible the He sees the hearts of men, of which men have no escape.

In Truth there is no merit in your presumption that this means that, in the Scripture you refer to.

In (Mark 9:31) it is true the He rose the third day buried Friday before sundown rose Sunday morning (day time even by our understanding) no evenings, nights, nor heart of earth mentioned here.

In (Mark 10:34) the same no mention of evenings nor nights nor heart of the earth referred to here.

In (Luke 9:22) again no mention of evenings nor nights nor heart of the earth, slain and buried Friday risen Sunday (again during the day time of both)

In (Luke 18:33) the same. Your statement correct “notice Jesus is put to death first before the three-day count begins” it is day to day no evenings nor nights nor heart of the earth, but your view is incorrect, to presume that theses statements are the same as “so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the earth” and they are not are they? Which includes your reference to (1 Cor 15:4)

“This passage makes clear what Jesus meant by the phrase “in the heart of the earth”, don’t you think?”

No my friend, absolutely not; Jesus says what He means, and means what He says, and in all the passages you have posted they are accurate according to what they state, in the context only, of what is stated. None of them say that He was buried, three days and three nights. (Or three nights and three days if you prefer)

In the heart of the earth, yes, most defiantly, for God sees the hearts of men. The evening after the Last Supper (which would be the beginning of Friday) (note: the sixth day the same day that man was made) and risen Sunday morning the eighth day the day after the seventh day which is Holy.

In this into the hands of man, which is made of earth controlled by the hearts of man which is in that which is made of earth therefore in the earth that God Himself deals with directly, because my friend, the living soul is of the Breath of God, but a dead soul is not. Man is made to have a direct relationship with Christ Jesus, the Word of God. And that would come from where my friend?

 

[zach_dunn]

When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign from heaven as proof that He was the promised Messiah, Jesus said He would give only one sign, and only one.

“An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign; and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12:38-40).

Consider the overwhelming significance of Jesus’ statement. He expressly declared that the only sign He would give to prove He was the Messiah was that He should be just three days and three nights in the grave. Jesus’ proof, or evidence, was not the fact of the resurrection itself. It was the length of time He would be in the grave, before being resurrected.

But the Jesus the Christian world worships today was entombed late Friday afternoon and rose early Sunday morning, making His stay in the grave only one day and two nights. Could this Jesus be the Messiah when the Messiah’s only sign was not fulfilled?

I typically don’t like to direct people to CARM — really just Catholics — but the people at CARM put together a convincing argument if you want to check it out: carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/how-long-was-jesus-dead-tomb

Essentially what it says is that “three days and three nights” is idiomatic rather than literal which is what most of the people here have been telling you. The idea of parts of days being equal to an entire day is exemplified in the Bible best by Esther:

Esther 4:16
Go, gather all the Jews to be found in Susa, and hold a fast on my behalf, and neither eat nor drink for three days, night or day. I and my maids will also fast as you do. Then I will go to the king, though it is against the law; and if I perish, I perish.

So what we see here is that Esther is going to fast for three days and nights before going to the King, good.

Esther 5:1
On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king’s palace, opposite the king’s hall. The king was sitting on his royal throne inside the palace opposite the entrance to the palace.

You can see that instead of waiting “three days, night or day,” Esther goes on the third day. This thought is shown in the New Testament as well:

Mark 8:31
And he began to teach them that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Luke 24:7
[T]hat the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise.

1 Corinthians 15:4
[T]hat he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.

It is pretty clear that on the third day is roughly equivalent to after three days.

 

[Zerilos]

In the Jewish counting system, Jesus was in the tomb the required times. Friday ends at Sundown. Notice how the authors of the synoptics make it clear that Jesus had to be in the tomb before the Sabbath? The Sabbath began at Friday at Sundown. Now, even if He was laid to rest 3 minutes before sundown, that would count as an entire day to the Jews. Hence Friday was day 1. Of course, Jesus was in the tomb the entire time Saturday (Sabbath) which makes it day 2. And then as soon as Saturday’s sundown began, day 3, even if Jesus rose a couple of minutes after sundown (which He didn’t. It was Sunday morning).

So, according to our brother Jews, Jesus fulfilled this prophecy completely… unless one goes with Caiaphas’ lie that the body was stolen!

Wait, you just admitted it was three days and two nights by Jewish standards.

 

[Zerilos]

Mailman;6472997:

“An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign;
First, consider this,so it does not apply to you,let us not label ourselves “evil and adulterous”

…and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12:38-40).
My bible (Good News) does not say three nights, but three days and i believe that was fulfilled. even in Jonah (1:17) “…a large fish swallowed Jonah, and he was inside the fish for THREE DAYS AND NIGHTS”,three nights not specified.

Jesus did spend three complete days in the “depths of the earth”, John 20:19 …it was late that sunday evening…" this was when he appeared to the disciples.

Mat, Mark and Luke make it clear that he was out of the tomb early sunday morning. The fact that John grossly contradicts the other three tales should not be viewed as evidence of it’s truth.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Jesus died on the first day, Friday. Saturday (Sabbath) was the second day. Sunday, Resurrection day. The scripture does not say Jesus was entombed for three 24 hr periods. It says 3 days and 3 nights. But the scripture also says that Jesus rose on the third day. Since Friday is counted as a day, Jesus could only have rose on the 3rd day which was Sunday. The 3 nights can be explained by Jewish custom of associating a partial day as a full day (and night). So Friday included the night and day which would be by our thinking Thursday night and Friday day. Saturday includes Friday night and Saturday day. Sunday includes Saturday night and Sunday day.

By including the preceding night as part of the day is actually what we do when we celebrate mass. We celebrate Sunday Mass on Saturday night and Sunday day because at Sundown is the start of the next day in Jewish custom. So Friday, the crucifixion would include Thursday night as part of the ‘day’.

Note, Jesus died at 3 pm during the day, when the Jews were told to sacrifice the lamb. It was during the day that Jesus died so Friday was indeed counted.

 

[fisherman_carl]

It’s silly to take Jesus statement of 3 days and 3 nights as 3 literal 24 hour periods that he would have to be entombed. In order for Jesus to fulfill that he would have had to have died exactly on the start of the day on Thursday morning in order to be resurrected on Sunday morning as scripture tells us. That would be 3, 24hr periods.

But we know that Jesus was discovered as risen from the dead on Sunday morning. And we know that Jesus as Lamb of God died at 3 pm in the afternoon (at the same time of the Jewish sacrificing of the lamb). So he did not die in the morning. If he was sacrificed at 3 pm in the afternoon then he would have to rise at 3pm on Sunday but we know that he was already risen in the morning of Sunday. So no matter how you look at it you can not take a literal translation of 3 days and 3 nights as 3, 24 hr periods.

 

[Bishop93]

Yes, He could have. But He would not have gotten up until the three days and nights have passed since He would have to make good on His promise of an only sign which will prove He is the promised Messiah.

But he didn’t.

Either way…promise broken.

 

[NotWorthy]

Wait, you just admitted it was three days and two nights by Jewish standards.

Read the posts by others that talks about Jewish idioms.

 

[zach_dunn]

But he didn’t.

Either way…promise broken.

I guess all of our martyrs died for nothing then . . .

 

[Layp3rs0n]

The Church teaches us that He was crucified on Friday and rose on Sunday, and the Church teaches truths. But let’s assume we’re wrong on this one (which we aren’t), just for the sake of argument. Even if He died on Tuesday and came back the following Monday what matters is that “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.”

 

[denwiles]

When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign from heaven as proof that He was the promised Messiah, Jesus said He would give only one sign, and only one.

“An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign; and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man be THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS in the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12:38-40).

Consider the overwhelming significance of Jesus’ statement. He expressly declared that the only sign He would give to prove He was the Messiah was that He should be just three days and three nights in the grave. Jesus’ proof, or evidence, was not the fact of the resurrection itself. It was the length of time He would be in the grave, before being resurrected.

But the Jesus the Christian world worships today was entombed late Friday afternoon and rose early Sunday morning, making His stay in the grave only one day and two nights. Could this Jesus be the Messiah when the Messiah’s only sign was not fulfilled?

There is only one Jesus. He is God and he came, died and rose so yes our Jesus is real Jesus.

 

[denwiles]

In the Jewish counting system, Jesus was in the tomb the required times. Friday ends at Sundown. Notice how the authors of the synoptics make it clear that Jesus had to be in the tomb before the Sabbath? The Sabbath began at Friday at Sundown. Now, even if He was laid to rest 3 minutes before sundown, that would count as an entire day to the Jews. Hence Friday was day 1. Of course, Jesus was in the tomb the entire time Saturday (Sabbath) which makes it day 2. And then as soon as Saturday’s sundown began, day 3, even if Jesus rose a couple of minutes after sundown (which He didn’t. It was Sunday morning).

So, according to our brother Jews, Jesus fulfilled this prophecy completely… unless one goes with Caiaphas’ lie that the body was stolen!

Great Answer!!!

 

[NHInsider]

qchi;6476379:

Mat, Mark and Luke make it clear that he was out of the tomb early sunday morning. The fact that John grossly contradicts the other three tales should not be viewed as evidence of it’s truth.

John’s not contradicting the synoptics - the time of Jesus’ appearance to the discples says nothing about the time of the Resurrection.