Council of Trent

  • Thread starter Thread starter redeemed1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The last time I checked, sola Scriptura was a Protestant belief, not a Catholic one. There is no good reason to expect everything from the Council of Trent to be backed up by Scriptures. In fact, had the Council codified the 66 books of the Bible Protestants believe in rather than the 73 books that Catholics believe in, you could STILL ask “Where in the Bible does it say these 66 books, and no others, are Scripture”? It doesn’t. The Bible does not contain a list of the official “canon” God meant for us to have. HUMAN BEINGS made the decision about what books were scriptural and what books were not. The question you should be asking yourself is, “By what authority did those human beings make that decision?”

Asking Catholics to defend Catholicism strictly out of the Bible is a bit like my telling you that “I’ll listen to your arguments so long as they remain faithful to the Magisterium of the Church”. Makes no sense.

Alisha
 
And you think the apostles didn’t know the Old Testament?
Click to expand...
No one said they didn’t.
Where would they get the teaching from if they didn’t know the Scriptures?
Click to expand...
They got their teachings from Jesus. That’s how they knew that the Old Covenant had been fulfilled, and the various dietary and ceremonial laws done away with. They couldn’t turn their Bibles to Acts 15 and see that for themselves.

Not only that but, as far as we know, Jesus did not himself make the abrogation of the Old Covenant explicit during his ministry on Earth. Yes, there were indications of it. But it seems apparent that he was not explicit on this point, or there would have been no discussion on it to begin with. No; the Apostles, with the assistance of the Holy Ghost, made explicit this implicit teaching of Christ, and bound all believers to it.

Meanwhile, the heretical Christian Judaisers, relying on their own private interpretation of the Bible (i.e. the Old Testament) held that Gentiles had to obey the Mosaic Law.
There was no catholic church back then or even an inkling of it until Constantine
Click to expand...
There is no serious historian of repute who would back such a claim; and the records we have of early Christianity, from the writings of the early Church Fathers, and from Christian liturgy, art, and architecture are enough to disprove it.

Are you going to discuss these items on our terms, meet us on our level, by disucssing them individually, on a different thread, or aren’t you?

Are you going to be “all things” to the ones you have come to evangelize, or are you instead doing this on your terms? What would Saint Paul had done?
 
40.png
redeemed1:
I have asked this in many forums, but no Roman Catholic has yet been able to answer this:

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
Click to expand...
The Council answers this in Chapter X:
“. . . as it is written; ‘He that is just, let him be justified still’ (Rev 22:11); and again, ‘Be not afraid to be justified even to death’ (Ecclesiasticus 18:22); and also, ‘Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.’ (James 2:24)”
 
If that’s the standard you’re going to hold everything to, you first have to prove your own standard.

Give me a citation from Scripture with a list of which books are Scripture.

Quote me the verse that says every single belief and practice must have a corresponding verse of the Bible.

Those are the real issues you’re trying to get at, you’re just covering them up with a laundry list to try to keep your opponents running around responding to your weak charges.
 
40.png
redeemed1:
The subject is the Council of Trent and the declarations from that council. All I ask is at least one verse from the Bible for each supposed doctrine to prove that those things are taught from Scripture. What is so hard about that?

Oh and by the way… my mother accused me of the same when I gave her Scripture to prove that Jesus is God and our Savior, minus Mary and the statues and saints you all venerate.

So you see not one of you actually believes the Word of God, just your man made teachings. How sad is that? Especially in light of the fact that Jesus tells us we are to live by the Word of God.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Psalm 119 is a good passage to read if you want to know how reliable the Bible is.
Click to expand...
 
Catholics know Jesus is God, oh, your bitterness. You can explain to Jesus why you hold His mom and our mom in so much disdain.You can also explain to him why you don’t appreciate his gifts and proclaim to know him.:tsktsk: God Bless You and I will be praying for your mother too:gopray:
 
40.png
redeemed1:
I have asked this in many forums, but no Roman Catholic has yet been able to answer this:

Where in all of the Bible are the declarations from the Council of Trent taught?
Click to expand...
The reasons no Catholic has answered you are 1) you are asking the wrong question and 2) it would take a ten-volume tome to answer.

If you were to do two-hours worth of research, you would quickly come up with resources addressing the issues raised in these canons, explaining the Catholic position and why it is phrased as it is in these canons.

The home page of Catholic Answers has several pithy little tracts that address many of your points, explaining why Catholics believe what they believe. Perhaps you should get a little grounding in the matters that concern you most, then come back and ask specific questions.

Since the canon of Scripture is your opening gambit, why not read about the Catholic view of that?
 
redeemed1,

I really think that you need to tone it down. Your attitude is not going to convert anyone, and it does not represent Christ well. This is their forum and they are very open to honest discussion, but this type of post will get you nowhere. If you have a question, ask it in sincerity, seeking to understand their position. Only after you feel you have understood their position, make up your mind. I think you have many false assumptions about their belief, and you don’t understand why RCs believe the council of Trent. I would use the time and the kindness that these folks give you to try to understand them. Then if you are pursuaded that they are wrong, state your objections graciously, one at a time.

Again, this is just my suggestion and pastoral advice. Take it or leave it.

Michael
 
40.png
michaelp:
redeemed1,

I really think that you need to tone it down. Your attitude is not going to convert anyone, and it does not represent Christ well. This is their forum and they are very open to honest discussion, but this type of post will get you nowhere. If you have a question, ask it in sincerity, seeking to understand their position. Only after you feel you have understood their position, make up your mind. I think you have many false assumptions about their belief, and you don’t understand why RCs believe the council of Trent. I would use the time and the kindness that these folks give you to try to understand them. Then if you are pursuaded that they are wrong, state your objections graciously, one at a time.

Again, this is just my suggestion and pastoral advice. Take it or leave it.

Michael
Click to expand...
 
Lisa, could you please place your quotes and your response in the same post?

Thank you.
 
40.png
redeemed1:
Acts 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Leviticus 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
Leviticus 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 17:15-16 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean. But if he wash them not, nor bathe his flesh; then he shall bear his iniquity.
Leviticus 18 deals with sexual immorality.
Leviticus 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
Psalms 97:7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.
Isaiah 2:8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:
Isaiah 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

And you think the apostles didn’t know the Old Testament? That is too funny. Where would they get the teaching from if they didn’t know the Scriptures? There was no catholic church back then or even an inkling of it until Constantine and came to fruition in the sixth century.
Click to expand...
You conveniently take out of context your quote lets set up the problem here the Jews were giving their rules that they supported by scripture that gentiles must circumsise and hold dietary laws such as no pigs, no seafood besides fish, no blood in the meat etc
What the Council ruled was a minium requirment here that you took out of context no circumcission was mentioned although that is in scripture, they did not descriminate from meats and kosher law they simply stated to not eat meat offered to idols everything else was fair game. You quoted those OT verses the aposstles didn’t don’t make it out that the aposltes were interpreting the verses the same way you did you obviously have no idea what the apsotles were thinking.
 
Acts 15

**The Council at Jerusalem **

1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” 6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Protestants aruge that we are saved by grace and faith and not by works but when convenient they adhere to the LAW.
Please cirmcumcise everyone in your church and eat kosher meat throw away that lobster and pork chop.
 
40.png
redeemed1:
I have asked this in many forums, but no Roman Catholic has yet been able to answer this:

Where in all of the Bible are the declarations from the Council of Trent taught?
Click to expand...
The answer to your question is simple, Matthew 16:19.

“And I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

If you fundamentally believe that there is only scripture and no tradition then you have the problem of explaining why Jesus would give this authority to Peter in the first place. If you believe that only Peter had this authority then you are probably Mormon and have abdicated the logic that Jesus would intend for his Church to move forward in time. If you are intellectually honest then you might say to yourself that Jesus had to establish authority and a succession strategy. The Council of Trent is that authority, it is binding, so is Vatican II.

Pray to be open to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Chist,
Blessings,

Scapular
 
redeemed1,

michaelp is right, you’ve come across as one who merely wants to beat us about the head rather than have us understand the truth. I’m sure that’s not what you want.

Any one of the Council’s declarations would require too much study to hash out completely here. Part of the problem is that you’re trying to fit them into a Protestant framework that they don’t belong in, and there’s to much background to clear up in order to have a clean discussion. If you want to be effective at proselytizing Catholics, it’s very important to accurately understand the whole of Catholic theology. Otherwise the discussion is much like arguing that jet turbine blades are wrong because they don’t work in a Chevy V8 car engine.

In order to help you become more effective, I’d like to suggest a few study aids; if you spend a few months in sincere study, you’ll be better able to reach us:
-“Catholicism and Fundamentalism”, by Karl Keating.
-“Crossing the Tiber”, by Stephen Ray.
-“Early Christian Fathers”, edited by C. C. Richardson (these are the letters of the guys who learned the faith directly from the Apostles).
-The Catechism of the Catholic Church.
-The radio archives on this website, especially the “Tough questions from non-Catholics” shows.

May the grace of our Lord be with you.
 
40.png
redeemed1:
I have asked this in many forums, but no Roman Catholic has yet been able to answer this:

Where in all of the Bible are the declarations from the Council of Trent taught?
Click to expand...
Redeemed1,

Wow, that was quite a chunk of info in that thread! If you took the time to read the Council of Trent (did you?) then I think that you would probably gladly take the time to read the related chapters in the** Catechism of the Council of Trent.**

I got my copy from Amazon.com, used for pretty cheap. And it’s an old book, I didn’t get the new one. Old books rock!!

The Catechism, which was published like 15 years after the Council convened I believe, will guide you greatly in answering your question. Be careful though, I think you’re kind of soft and sympathetic to the Catholic Church. It might sway you towards Rome!!
 
I would like to challenge all of you to an honest prayerful reading of the Bible. It takes about a year to go through, usually a couple of chapters at a time, but it is well worth it.

I have read through the Bible many times and each time I do I find new things to praise and thank God for. I honestly believe that if each of you would do that starting at Genesis you will all be thinking differently by the end of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

In order to do this though, you must leave aside any preconceived notions and teachings you have learned and let the Holy Spirit speak to your heart. You will be amazed!

You will find that sometimes a few verses teach a whole truth, bang; and at other times there will be two or three chapters to teach a doctrine.

You will find as you read that Jesus and the New Testament writers confirm all that was revealed in the Old Testament and goes beyond, since what was not revealed in the Old is opened up in the New.

Prayerfully ask God to show you His truth. His truth is what counts.

Humbly,
 
40.png
redeemed1:
I would like to challenge all of you to an honest prayerful reading of the Bible. It takes about a year to go through, usually a couple of chapters at a time, but it is well worth it.

I have read through the Bible many times and each time I do I find new things to praise and thank God for. I honestly believe that if each of you would do that starting at Genesis you will all be thinking differently by the end of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

In order to do this though, you must leave aside any preconceived notions and teachings you have learned and let the Holy Spirit speak to your heart. You will be amazed!

You will find that sometimes a few verses teach a whole truth, bang; and at other times there will be two or three chapters to teach a doctrine.

You will find as you read that Jesus and the New Testament writers confirm all that was revealed in the Old Testament and goes beyond, since what was not revealed in the Old is opened up in the New.

Prayerfully ask God to show you His truth. His truth is what counts.

Humbly,
Click to expand...
I grew up Protestant have done what you have said and I am Catholic and love our Lord Jesus.I just want to thank you for being kind in this thread you were being more Christlike andI would like to thankyou again.God Bless,Lisa
 
Redeemed;

I’m always glad to hear someone who loves the Sacred Scriptures so much. Good for you! Do you know the analogy that Luther used for Justification? Hint - it had to so with manure!

I have a question however, you said something earlier about traditions of men, not to follow them and all. What is it in the RCC that in tradition? What do you mean by traditions of man?

Your brother in Christ;

p.s. do you do any exegesis?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top