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Gorgias
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He rose. From. The. Dead. And was witnessed to be not only dead beforehand, but alive and well (albeit scarred) afterward.
I’m gonna call that “extraordinary evidence.” YMMV.
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I’m gonna call that “extraordinary evidence.” YMMV.
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Gorgias
Guest
I’m with you. At first, he seems to have been all, “umm… what?!?”
Actually, they were already considered married . He was going to divorce her .
So, here’s the thing: the “hurt” he was trying to save Mary from was being stoned by the authorities for being an adulteress according to Mosaic law . So, if he divorced her, then her claim to not being an adulteress would be able to go unchallenged, and she could go find “the father” and Joseph wouldn’t be forced to raise another man’s mamzer son.
“To some”? That’s the way that betrothal worked. You were bound to your spouse. It would take divorce to dissolve that bond.
Well… yes and no. He could have merely kept the status quo. Except that, by doing so, he would be living with the knowledge of his own sin of not exposing Mary as an adulteress. His “divorce” solution saved Mary, so to speak… but it also saved him . (The angel set him right on that count, though…)
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blackforest
Well-known member
But if they assume the burden of proof and you reject their argument, do you devise a an elaborate conspiracy theory in response?
“Ah ha! You had sex, fabricated that God impregnated you, had the baby, and successfully convinced the baby and countless others within a 100-mile radius that he was the son of God. The baby grew up, still believing you, preached around the region, healed the sick, challenged the Roman Empire, got executed, and was missing from his tomb three days later.”
Honestly, if I wanted to cover up an illicit affair, I’d come up with something a lot simpler. Or I’d make like Hagar and escape.
But remember, with burden of proof comes burden of rejoinder. If you reject a claim, you have to defend that rejection.
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FiveLinden
Guest
Well, that’s the reason I only describe myself as an atheist occasionally, for convenience. There are many things I do not ‘believe’ in, or more accurately ‘have not concluded exist’. So I am an a-unicorn, an a-fairy, an a-sasquatch, an a-5G mind control, and an a-acupunture-is-more-effective-than placebo. (I’m not here equating the concept of God and these other things I don’t believe in).
Being an a-anything does not define or describe me. It hurts not at all that people who believe they are immortal and that God created their immortal souls individually and that God will judge them and bring them to eternal bliss, or not, would want to define me in terms of my absence of that belief, and make up a name for me.
Christians of course are all atheists in relation to several thousand gods believed in by other people.
Only belief on one God separates me from a Christian. Belief in a great many more Gods separates me from my Hindu sister-in-law.
po18guy
Well-known member
This is a no relativism thread! Rather, we believe in the One True God - the God Who revealed himself to mankind; the God who revealed and is revealed; the God in Christ who was, is and always will be the fulfillment of prophecy. Not the false gods, or idols - man-made creations that can not think, move or act. Their only being is through the agency of man’s labor. The God of the Christians and Hebrews is the God who does not need someone to brush the dust off of Him.
You describe many things which you are not.
But, what are you?
You describe many things which you are not.
But, what are you?
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FiveLinden
Guest
I am a person whose understanding of things changes all the time according to the evidence I see.
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FiveLinden
Guest
There seems to be a widespread belief among Christians, based on biblical descriptions of ‘idol worshippers’ that those who use such images think they are actually gods. But I have never seen any evidence of even a single religion or people who treated such images as anything other than a representation or home for their god(s). The argument you make against ‘idols’ is against straw men.
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TheAntitheist
Guest
Greetings Annad,
Is there any quote from Joseph himself suggesting that he saw an angel, or is this from second hand accounts? Is it possible that Joseph was indeed the father, but in order to fulfill a prophecy, the writers of the new testament (St. Luke for instance) invented the story to fit the existing narrative?
Ultimately, to me it seems more likely that Joseph was indeed the father, and, after Jesus’ death, the story of the virgin birth was created to match the prophecy that was already in existence, than it would be for a supernatural event to spontaneously cause a pregnancy in a virgin.
Please let me know what your opinion is on this matter,
The Antitheist
Is there any quote from Joseph himself suggesting that he saw an angel, or is this from second hand accounts? Is it possible that Joseph was indeed the father, but in order to fulfill a prophecy, the writers of the new testament (St. Luke for instance) invented the story to fit the existing narrative?
Ultimately, to me it seems more likely that Joseph was indeed the father, and, after Jesus’ death, the story of the virgin birth was created to match the prophecy that was already in existence, than it would be for a supernatural event to spontaneously cause a pregnancy in a virgin.
Please let me know what your opinion is on this matter,
The Antitheist
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annad347
Guest
Greeting @TheAntitheist
I don’t think anyone actually interviewed Joseph or quoted him about his wife, her virginity, the legitimatize of their child, or that an Angel told him to marry her…or that an angel visited him a second telling him to leave Egypt… sorry.
Actually in reality, if we were back in the days of Joseph and Mary, their marriage would have been what society, now a days, calls a shot-gun wedding. People would have been more into the blessing that Mary was married when she was pregnant, nothing else would have mattered.
No one questioned Mary about her virginity, I doubt anyone even know she was still a virgin when Jesus was born, but we know she was.
Now you’re going to ask, how do we know, she was a virgin… Well, we know she was because of Jesus Christ.
We believe in what was prophesied about Jesus. We believe Jesus is Our Lord and Savior. We believe what the Apostles taught and wrote about Jesus, His miracles, His life on earth.
So if we know Jesus Christ is our Savior, we know Jesus Christ is the one written about in the Old Testament, then we know Mary was a virgin when He was born.
Sorry, there are no quotes specifically by Joseph that he was visited by an angel. The information might have come from a simple conversation between Matthew and Mary, or Matthew and someone who spoke to Mary about her life… then it was written into the Gospel of Matthew 1:18 - 25
I don’t think anyone actually interviewed Joseph or quoted him about his wife, her virginity, the legitimatize of their child, or that an Angel told him to marry her…or that an angel visited him a second telling him to leave Egypt… sorry.
Actually in reality, if we were back in the days of Joseph and Mary, their marriage would have been what society, now a days, calls a shot-gun wedding. People would have been more into the blessing that Mary was married when she was pregnant, nothing else would have mattered.
No one questioned Mary about her virginity, I doubt anyone even know she was still a virgin when Jesus was born, but we know she was.
Now you’re going to ask, how do we know, she was a virgin… Well, we know she was because of Jesus Christ.
We believe in what was prophesied about Jesus. We believe Jesus is Our Lord and Savior. We believe what the Apostles taught and wrote about Jesus, His miracles, His life on earth.
So if we know Jesus Christ is our Savior, we know Jesus Christ is the one written about in the Old Testament, then we know Mary was a virgin when He was born.
Sorry, there are no quotes specifically by Joseph that he was visited by an angel. The information might have come from a simple conversation between Matthew and Mary, or Matthew and someone who spoke to Mary about her life… then it was written into the Gospel of Matthew 1:18 - 25
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po18guy
Well-known member
So you say. Ever notice that everything that you disagree with is a straw man, logical fallacy or nonsensical? Why must the world agree with you? Riddle me that one. Dig beneath the surface. Read the Wisdom of Solomon, for but one historical record.
Anyway, life is too short. I move on to greener pastures.
Anyway, life is too short. I move on to greener pastures.
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FiveLinden
Guest
I cannot see that this criticism of my discussion is fair.
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dochawk
Guest
an excellent response.
Although I might favor inane giggling, pounding the floor as I rolled about in laughter, and finally asking which of the speaker’s parents was a space alien . . .
I suppose Father’s response shows a bit more Christian Charity . . .
But add in an angelic vision, followed by another angelic visit warning you to get out of Dodge, and barely doing so before the government killed every child in town within a couple of years of the age of your own . . . .
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Gorgias
Guest
Sure. Please substantiate that conjecture, or else we can simply shrug and say “freely asserted, freely denied.” Just because you say “well… it’s possible” doesn’t do anything for the assertion or its merits.
No. That misunderstands the character of “betrothal” in 1st century Jewish Palestine. You’re taking today’s understanding of an “engagement” and imposing it on a completely different situation altogether.
I’m thinking she had a pretty good idea about the question…
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annad347
Guest
The only thing I know about Jewish traditions comes from the movie “Fiddler on the Roof”. In NY, it would have been called a shot-gun wedding… whether it really was or not.
walks off singing “Match maker, match maker make me a match find me a find, catch me a catch…”
I’m sure she did, so did Joseph… but I doubt they went around telling anyone specifics… or that anyone asked her about it, except maybe her cousin, Elizabeth.
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Gorgias
Guest
Fair enough. When thinking through the context of the Scriptural narratives, though, we have to look at them through the lens of their own times and places and cultural settings, and not presume that things are the same there and then as they are here and now!
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annad347
Guest
I wasn’t presuming anything. I didn’t think @TheAntitheist wanted a scriptural narratives, when he asked for a quote from Joseph about being visited by an angel, that wasn’t from second hand accounts.
I wasn’t using scripture to answer the question… so what I wrote was based on my modern day understanding of what might have happened had I been in Mary and Joseph’s time or rather if they had been in my time.
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