Couple to form their "own church" ?

[Rightlydivide]

Unless you can show the exact Book, Chapter, and Verse, then said Church would not be Biblical.

I disagree. The Bible tells us what constitutes the church. The church is all who are saved.

Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

So one must saved.

Shortly later God gives us a powerful message about what his church looks like.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

So there we see that it does not have to be elaborate as well.

I am curious though, are you contending that Catholicism does not plant churches?

 

[VWcrazy]

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

This says absolutely nothing about establishing a new Church.

 

[Rightlydivide]

VWcrazy meant “church” as in “denomination” or “non-denominational community” separate from the original Roman Catholic Church, not starting new parishes, which we all agree on.

Original?
I thought the first Christians worshipped in the synagogue?

Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Are you suggesting the Jews venerated Mary, used images, took confession to a priest, followed a bishop in Rome(you did say Roman and not Jerusalem Catholic I notice), had a set liturgy, and other Roman practices?
Surely not.

 

[Rightlydivide]

This says absolutely nothing about establishing a new Church.

No it says that God is where two or three are gathered in his name. That means that God’s church does not need to be established or ran by your bishop.

 

[Metaron]

So there we see that it does not have to be elaborate as well.

No, because it doesn’t call them a “church”.

I am curious though, are you contending that Catholicism does not plant churches?

Rightlydivide, You are confusing creating parishes and creating wholly separate “churches” or denominations or non-denominational communities.
VWcrazy was referring to creating separate denominations or communities, not starting parishes connected to the Church.

 

[VWcrazy]

Rightlydivide,

You are avoiding the issue completely.

Christ established His Church and nowhere in Scripture does it say that we are free to establish our own Churches. If it did, I would assume you would have pointed out the exact Book, Chapter, and verse which states we are able “to establish our own Church”.

Establishing one’s own Church is blantantly non-Biblical. If it is not, once again - show the exact Book, Chapter, and verse which explicitly states that one is free to establish “one’s own Church”.

 

[Metaron]

Original?
I thought the first Christians worshipped in the synagogue?

They did. How does where they worshipped in the early times prove they were somehow different from the Church today?
They were in house-churches during the persecution. Yet they still kept Apostolic Succession, maintained even in our bishops and priests today. Later, when communism was around, they were sometimes forced to have Mass in barns and secret basements. Because they weren’t in a church, does that mean they were no longer Catholic? Of course not.

Are you suggesting the Jews venerated Mary…

No, the early Christians honoured Mary though.

…used images, took confession to a priest, followed a bishop in Rome(you did say Roman and not Jerusalem Catholic I notice)

Early images are found in the catacombs, such as the Helios-Christ, the Good Shepherd etc., the recently-found church at Megiddo, early house-churches, etc. Not that a lack of images would prove anything. Jews had images in their Temple too, anyway.

They did practice the Sacrament of Reconciliation, although it was in a non-auricular form at that time.

And they did follow their bishops, who, in turn, were in submission to St.Peter (Sounds Catholic to me!)
See the Coucil of Jerusalem in the Bible, where Bishop Peter settles the dispute.

…had a set liturgy…

Oh, this is the easiest one. The Jews, as a matter of fact, did have a set liturgy, for both synagogue and Temple (see Deuteronomy and Numbers). The Christian liturgy evolved from that.

…and other Roman practices?
Surely not.

Surely yes! Some were fully their, others developing, but they were their, buddy!

 

[Quackers]

A good book for that is Doubtful Disputations which offers advice on what to do when the Bible is silent on a specific issue.

Rightlydivide, I would like to ask you a question. By what authority does the author of this book act upon? How do you know the author’s advice is trustworthy, and won’t lead you astray? How do you know this book is reliable? Isn’t relying on this book the same as relying on something other than the Bible, which is what many Protestants accuse Catholics of doing?

I’m not asking you these questions to be argumentative or sarcastic. I’m asking you these questions because I would sincerely like to know what you think. God bless.

 

[Metaron]

No it says that God is where two or three are gathered in his name. That means that God’s church does not need to be established or ran by your bishop.

Not so. For that matter, who could ever hold authority in the Protestant model? Protestantism is in the spirit of chaos and disorder-- just look at the constantly fragmenting and disintegrating groups. God is not a God of disorder and chaos, nor is he schizophrenic. He is a God of unity, and order. In Protestantism, everyone relies on their own interpretation of Scripture, so their is no Absolute Truth. This is why there are som many disagreements on major moral issues in Protestant communities, and, their is no final authority. It’s every man (or pastor) for himself.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Not so. For that matter, who could ever hold authority in the Protestant model? Protestantism is in the spirit of chaos and disorder-- just look at the constantly fragmenting and disintegrating groups. God is not a God of disorder and chaos, nor is he schizophrenic. He is a God of unity, and order. In Protestantism, everyone relies on their own interpretation of Scripture, so their is no Absolute Truth. This is why there are som many disagreements on major moral issues in Protestant communities, and, their is no final authority. It’s every man (or pastor) for himself.

I have heard your opinion and I would like to offer mine.
God is not a God of disorder and chaos. He is a God who touches the lives of his Saints and directs them to lead others to Christ. I visited Catholic churches when I was younger with girlfriends and never once heard the gospel. I went as an adult and never heard the gospel. No Catholic ever witnessed to me, present company included my almost former Protestant forum friend.
It was deader than a door nail. My pastor shared the gospel and I accepted Christ and was baptized. And in turn, I have led others to Christ and personally baptized 16 people as an elder(elder…ironic) of my church. Where did we find them? We found them everywhere they would listen. Because that is what the Bible tells us to do. Publicans and harlots is a nice way of saying drunks and whores.

Ever lead a prostitute with HIV out of sin and into the church?
Ever held a man twice your age as he shakes off crack and then a week later take him by the shoulder and dip him into the waters in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?
Ever argue with your graduate advisor who mentored you and encouraged your atheism and watch him led to Christ?
You got me going and I cant stop now!
Have you ever seen the power of God in the lives of a congregation that brings half a dozen people a week into saving knowledge of Christ? Hey, the worst we are doing from your perspective is making them what…seperated brethren when we baptize them.
Whole countries are turning away from an institution that people could not shake quick enough when they finally could read the word of God. What you see as chaos brother is the movings of almighty God in the lives of sinners.
How many Catholics on here have led more than a dozen people to Christ in a week?
Hey, even Paul had to boast when others did not give him any credit.
Now…what were we talking about?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Rightlydivide, I would like to ask you a question. By what authority does the author of this book act upon? How do you know the author’s advice is trustworthy, and won’t lead you astray? How do you know this book is reliable? Isn’t relying on this book the same as relying on something other than the Bible, which is what many Protestants accuse Catholics of doing?

I’m not asking you these questions to be argumentative or sarcastic. I’m asking you these questions because I would sincerely like to know what you think. God bless.

The author is not offering his authority. You see anyone can get authority, authority is cheap, truth…that is hard to find in certain places.
Authority…you guys had a lot of authority and God’s will was done and you have lost it.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Rightlydivide,

You are avoiding the issue completely.

Christ established His Church and nowhere in Scripture does it say that we are free to establish our own Churches. If it did, I would assume you would have pointed out the exact Book, Chapter, and verse which states we are able “to establish our own Church”.

Establishing one’s own Church is blantantly non-Biblical. If it is not, once again - show the exact Book, Chapter, and verse which explicitly states that one is free to establish “one’s own Church”.

I already handed out the pearls of scripture…do with them what you will.

 

[justinthemartyr]

I disagree. Planting churches is what the great commision is all about.

yes, the bishops and presbyters(priests) ordained by them do plant churches and they are in succession with the laying on of hands ordination from the very first bishops of the Church, the apostles.

 

[VWcrazy]

I already handed out the pearls of scripture…do with them what you will.

The Scripture quotes you gave had nothing to do with establishing one’s own Church. The only thing you have shown is that establishing one’s own Church is not Biblical.

 

[Quackers]

The author is not offering his authority. You see anyone can get authority, authority is cheap, truth…that is hard to find in certain places.
Authority…you guys had a lot of authority and God’s will was done and you have lost it.

How do you know the Catholic Church has lost authority? How do you know what’s true, when you have all these different Protestant denominations teaching and preaching from the same Bible and contradicting each other? Why bother reading this book by this author if he doesn’t have any authority to address the matter?

 

[Quackers]

I have heard your opinion and I would like to offer mine.
God is not a God of disorder and chaos. He is a God who touches the lives of his Saints and directs them to lead others to Christ. I visited Catholic churches when I was younger with girlfriends and never once heard the gospel. I went as an adult and never heard the gospel. No Catholic ever witnessed to me, present company included my almost former Protestant forum friend.
It was deader than a door nail. My pastor shared the gospel and I accepted Christ and was baptized. And in turn, I have led others to Christ and personally baptized 16 people as an elder(elder…ironic) of my church. Where did we find them? We found them everywhere they would listen. Because that is what the Bible tells us to do. Publicans and harlots is a nice way of saying drunks and whores.

Ever lead a prostitute with HIV out of sin and into the church?
Ever held a man twice your age as he shakes off crack and then a week later take him by the shoulder and dip him into the waters in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?
Ever argue with your graduate advisor who mentored you and encouraged your atheism and watch him led to Christ?
You got me going and I cant stop now!
Have you ever seen the power of God in the lives of a congregation that brings half a dozen people a week into saving knowledge of Christ? Hey, the worst we are doing from your perspective is making them what…seperated brethren when we baptize them.
Whole countries are turning away from an institution that people could not shake quick enough when they finally could read the word of God. What you see as chaos brother is the movings of almighty God in the lives of sinners.
How many Catholics on here have led more than a dozen people to Christ in a week?
Hey, even Paul had to boast when others did not give him any credit.
Now…what were we talking about?

You’re generalizing about Catholics, and you’re not being fair. I know plenty of Catholics, both priests and average parishioners, who witness and lead people to Christ. I can tell you stories of a lot of Protestants (again, both ministers and lay people) who are lukewarm, or even cold. These Protestants didn’t bother leading people to the Lord. There are devout people and apathetic people on both sides, Protestant and Catholic. And the traffic isn’t one way, either. People are converting to the Catholic faith too. The parishes here in my area are full of converts, many of whom have converted from Prostestantism. The more I read your posts, the more I think you just want to argue and insult instead of engaging in mature, honest discussion. I don’t think trying to discuss these matters with you is productive at all.

 

[VWcrazy]

Rightlydivide,

Authority…you guys had a lot of authority and God’s will was done and you have lost it.

Please provide Book, Chapter, and Verse where this authority was lost.

 

[Quackers]

How do you know the author’s advice is trustworthy, and won’t lead you astray? How do you know this book is reliable? Isn’t relying on this book the same as relying on something other than the Bible, which is what many Protestants accuse Catholics of doing?

I know I said I didn’t think discussing this any further with you was productive, but I had to ask the following, because I’m curious: Why didn’t you answer these questions? If you’re a Bible only Christian, shouldn’t all your beliefs come strictly from the Bible, and nowhere else? The only thing you’ve proven so far is that not all your beliefs come from the Bible. You have yet to disprove the truth of the Catholic faith.

Also, I would like to add that I hear the Gospel proclaimed every Sunday at Mass. Passages from the Gospels are always read, and the priest always expounds upon it. This has been true of every Catholic parish I’ve ever attended.

 

[Zooey]

If they follow the Bible, they will be fine and souls will be won. I applaud them if they are going to use this unfortunate decision by the church to spread the gospel.

If they follow the Bible, I am sure people will be led to Christ.

Where in the Bible does it say, “If you don’t like the church you’re attending, you are to go out & start up your own church in the upstairs bathroom”???
Cause that’s not in any Bible I’ve ever read!

We’re not talking about someone converting from ‘Reformed Baptist’ to ‘Wesleyan Methodist’, or from ‘Presbyterian Church in America’ to ‘Church of God in Christ’. We’re talking about forming their own religion, based on their own ideas & notions.
The last groups I knew of my own knowledge like that were Baptists who ended up believing in reincarnation, holding seances, and making a pilgrimage to the Great Pyramids, to uch: “commune with the Goddess Isis, who is:bigyikes: also Mary the Mother of Jesus”.:dts: :dts: :dts:
Extreme case? Maybe, maybe not…This is, I know for sure, the kind of thing that cults are made of. And it’s dangerous.Very dangerous.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Rightlydivide;3079052:

We’re talking about forming their own religion, based on their own ideas & notions.
.

People forming their own church because a divorced pastor is going to be in the pulpit…is…starting their own religion? So what IS the difference between what they are doing and the groups you mentioned? Oh yes, I know…300 or 400 years as I see it.