Couples with kids, cohabitating are among those marrying at papal Mass

[saintjohnxxiii]

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1403766.htm

The headline is misleading. We don’t know enough about these couples to make an educated guess and while it does come from CNS, there is bias everywhere. However what does concern me are the couples who have no intention of living apart prior to marriage and see this as a ritual rather than a Sacrament. My wife and I have only been married 2 years but I remember hearing stories from the Oratorians about couples who want a Church wedding with about 2 weeks notice and its that mind set that has me greatly concerned.

Families are separated all of the time. Some fathers are on business for months at a time. Let’s not see the separation of a family, in the name of attaining virtue, as some greater stumbling block on the advent of a family’s most glorious day; the marriage of one man and one woman seeking to build what was once broken.

This is something that can be greatly abused IMHO.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

The couple’s name is Gabriella and Guido, who are in their fifties. Gabriella is a single mom with a grown daughter and Guido had his marriage annulled. Both had been living together for four years before they decided to marry. I’m assuming that other couples are also living together. Life is messy and people are imperfect and it is good that papal ceremonies reflect this. In the past, these things have been vetted to the max. I’m sure that only couples in their twenties from good pious families who were virgins and the brides lived at home like good submissive daughters and wanted only to be mothers and homemakers were married by JPII. However, it is hard for most people to relate to that. Why not allow normal fallible people to be celebrated by the Pope?

Also, it is economically difficult for couples living together to live separately. I know a couple who was told this when they went to marry and pointed out the impracticality of it. They found a more accommodating priest who said that they could live together but should obviously not sleep with each other. Rent is generally very high (and some couples have bought houses together) so it is impossible for couples to afford two apartments. Many younger couples don’t have close family or friends living nearby, etc. This isn’t the 1950s where the daughters generally lived with their parents until they married. I’m assuming that the problem is even worse in Rome because of the high unemployment and dire economic situation there.

 

[pianistclare]

Why is everyone assuming that these couple have not received Reconciliation, are living as in such a way as to not incur sin or scandal, and are presenting themselves for marriage?
There is absolutely no reason to suspect that the Pope is tossing out the proper procedures fro having their situations fixed once and for all.
He’s the Pope. Let’s be grateful that these couples have turned back to the Lord and want to get married.
God bless them. And our dear Pope Francis.

 

[phil19034]

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1403766.htm

The headline is misleading. We don’t know enough about these couples to make an educated guess and while it does come from CNS, there is bias everywhere. However what does concern me are the couples who have no intention of living apart prior to marriage and see this as a ritual rather than a Sacrament. My wife and I have only been married 2 years but I remember hearing stories from the Oratorians about couples who want a Church wedding with about 2 weeks notice and its that mind set that has me greatly concerned.

Families are separated all of the time. Some fathers are on business for months at a time. Let’s not see the separation of a family, in the name of attaining virtue, as some greater stumbling block on the advent of a family’s most glorious day; the marriage of one man and one woman seeking to build what was once broken.

This is something that can be greatly abused IMHO.

I don’t think it would be abused when done by the Pope. The couples would be vetted to make sure they trying to normalize their marriage and live a Christian life.

I originally thought that maybe all Bishops should have this, but then that could and might be abused. But perhaps the Church could do this on the Province level all over the world with the Archbishops…

I think it would be nice to see a program every two years where couples who are trying to return to the Church can get married by their Metropolitan Archbishop. Pastors submit an application to their Dioceses and the Local Bishops select a couple (at least one) from each diocese and have the Archbishop of the Province marry them at the Cathedral of the Archdiocese. The Province pays for a small reception at the Cathedral’s parish hall with Bride/Groom, witness and close family. The exact number of guests allowed would depend on the number of couples and size of the Parish hall.

Then, each couple spends two years helping the Diocese with pre-Cana, Marriage retreats, teen and young adult faith formation, chastity training, theology of the body, general catechisms training sessions, and evangelization.

The couples return to the Church, get married in the Cathedral for free, learn a ton about the Church, give back to the dioceses, and help other Catholics from making the same mistakes as they did.

Could be pretty awesome actually…

Thoughts?

 

[phil19034]

Why is everyone assuming that these couple have not received Reconciliation, are living as in such a way as to not incur sin or scandal, and are presenting themselves for marriage?
There is absolutely no reason to suspect that the Pope is tossing out the proper procedures fro having their situations fixed once and for all.
He’s the Pope. Let’s be grateful that these couples have turned back to the Lord and want to get married.
God bless them. And our dear Pope Francis.

I agree.

I would almost guarantee that all of these couples have been vetted and want to come back to life a sacramental life in the Church. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are going to confession multiple times and I would imagine that they will also attend confession the day of their wedding. Maybe the Pope will take their confession too…??? That would be pretty special.

 

[commenter]

The couple’s name is Gabriella and Guido, who are in their fifties. Gabriella is a single mom with a grown daughter and Guido had his marriage annulled. Both had been living together for four years before they decided to marry. I’m assuming that other couples are also living together. Life is messy and people are imperfect and it is good that papal ceremonies reflect this. In the past, these things have been vetted to the max. I’m sure that only couples in their twenties from good pious families who were virgins and the brides lived at home like good submissive daughters and wanted only to be mothers and homemakers were married by JPII. However, it is hard for most people to relate to that. Why not allow normal fallible people to be celebrated by the Pope?

Do you really, really have direct information about what kinds of couples were married by JPII when he was pope, under what conditions or circumstances?

The secular media have constantly portrayed JPII as a nice man, but in an ivory tower, distant from the complexity of human relationships, moralities in shades of grey, the dirt and sweat of imperfect humanity. Do you actually believe,in his time, the Nazis were pausing for the Angelus, the Communists were scrupulous about chastity, life in World War II was all about the virtues, and decades of dictatorship insulated priests from witnessing sin and sex? Instead of trusting the secular media, read the Theology of the Body to learn his viewpoint. There is far more complexity, shades of grey, dirt, sweat, nuances, different circumstances, complicating factors of guilt and redemption in his writings than in modern American Media and public education, including sex education.

The Media have misrepresent Pope Francis, but in a different way. They misrepresented JPII to show Catholicism was out of touch with the “regular folks”, but they omit his commitment to doctrinal orthodoxy and his reaffirmation of the supernatural realities, both good and evil. They twist his statements to show how “bright” he is, only as part of their plan to show how “dark” Catholicism is. This is the same injustice they did to the memory of John XXIII, who was a fully orthodox Catholic. They don’t love the real John or the real Francis.

 

[pianistclare]

Do you really, really have direct information about what kinds of couples were married by JPII when he was pope, under what conditions or circumstances? From what source?

The secular media have constantly portrayed JPII as a nice man, but in an ivory tower, distant from the complexity of human relationships, moralities in shades of grey, the dirt and sweat of imperfect humanity. Do you actually believe the Nazis were pausing for the Angelus, the Communists were scrupulous about chastity, life in World War II was all about the virtues, and decades of dictatorship insulated priests from witnessing sin and sex? Instead of trusting the secular media, why not read the Theology of the Body to form your views of the recent papacy?

The Media have also misrepresented Pope Francis, but in a different way. They misrepresented JPII to show Catholicism was out of touch with the “regular folks”, but they omit his commitment to doctrinal orthodoxy and his reaffirmation of the supernatural realities, both good and evil. They twist his statements to show how “bright” he is, only as part of their plan to show how “dark” Catholicism is. This is the same injustice they did to the memory of John XXIII, who was a fully orthodox Catholic. They don’t love the real John or the real Francis.

Well stated.

 

[babochka]

In the past, these things have been vetted to the max. I’m sure that only couples in their twenties from good pious families who were virgins and the brides lived at home like good submissive daughters and wanted only to be mothers and homemakers were married by JPII. However, it is hard for most people to relate to that. Why not allow normal fallible people to be celebrated by the Pope?

Right, because Pope Francis is the first Pope ever to teach compassion and Pope John Paul II taught that women should be submissive doormats who move from their fathers’ authority to their husbands’, destined to spend their lives barefoot and pregnant. Oh, right… he canonized St. Gianna Molla (a working mother) and gave us the beautiful Mulieris Dignitatem, and wrote the “letter to women”, which included these words:

Thank you, *women who work! *You are present and active in every area of life-social, economic, cultural, artistic and political. In this way you make an indispensable contribution to the growth of a culture which unites reason and feeling, to a model of life ever open to the sense of “mystery”, to the establishment of economic and political structures ever more worthy of humanity…
Yes, it is time to *examine the past with courage, *to assign responsibility where it is due in a review of the long history of humanity. Women have contributed to that history as much as men and, more often than not, they did so in much more difficult conditions. I think particularly of those women who loved culture and art, and devoted their lives to them in spite of the fact that they were frequently at a disadvantage from the start, excluded from equal educational opportunities, underestimated, ignored and not given credit for their intellectual contributions. Sadly, very little of women’s achievements in history can be registered by the science of history. But even though time may have buried the documentary evidence of those achievements, their beneficent influence can be felt as a force which has shaped the lives of successive generations, right up to our own. To this great, immense feminine “tradition” humanity owes a debt which can never be repaid. Yet how many women have been and continue to be valued more for their physical appearance than for their skill, their professionalism, their intellectual abilities, their deep sensitivity; in a word, the very dignity of their being!

As far as personal rights are concerned, there is an urgent need to achieve *real equality *in every area: equal pay for equal work, protection for working mothers, fairness in career advancements, equality of spouses with regard to family rights and the recognition of everything that is part of the rights and duties of citizens in a democratic State.

There is no need to denigrate a past pope in order to show approval for the actions of Pope Francis. Besides, you cite no evidence whatsoever to back up your idea that this never would have happened in the past.

 

[babochka]

Why is everyone assuming that these couple have not received Reconciliation, are living as in such a way as to not incur sin or scandal, and are presenting themselves for marriage?
There is absolutely no reason to suspect that the Pope is tossing out the proper procedures fro having their situations fixed once and for all.
He’s the Pope. Let’s be grateful that these couples have turned back to the Lord and want to get married.
God bless them. And our dear Pope Francis.

Yes! Well stated, and now I don’t have to write it.

 

[maryjk]

My husband and I lived together before we were married. We were then married by a judge.

When I decided to return to the Church, I met with our local priest. I explained that my husband and I had been married civilly for more than 10 years. That we had a child.

He didn’t talk about my husband moving out of the house. The house that we owned. He didn’t talk about an apartment. He didn’t tell me that I needed to move back in with my parents.

His goal was to get me right with the Church, ASAP. Nothing else.

Oh, and this conversation? It started in the confessional.

 

[phil19034]

My husband and I lived together before we were married. We were then married by a judge.

When I decided to return to the Church, I met with our local priest. I explained that my husband and I had been married civilly for more than 10 years. That we had a child.

He didn’t talk about my husband moving out of the house. The house that we owned. He didn’t talk about an apartment. He didn’t tell me that I needed to move back in with my parents.

His goal was to get me right with the Church, ASAP. Nothing else.

Oh, and this conversation? It started in the confessional.

Amen! My return was just like that, except I was married for 8 years.

 

[ProVobis]

Why is everyone assuming that these couple have not received Reconciliation, are living as in such a way as to not incur sin or scandal, and are presenting themselves for marriage?
There is absolutely no reason to suspect that the Pope is tossing out the proper procedures fro having their situations fixed once and for all.
He’s the Pope. Let’s be grateful that these couples have turned back to the Lord and want to get married.
God bless them. And our dear Pope Francis.

Good points. Having seen and heard his push for more frequent confessions heretofore, I would definitely give the Pope and the couples the benefit of the doubt here. Not judging anyone, though.

 

[Neofight]

The psalmist cries, “Lift high your gates”, not “slam shut the door”.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Reading the posts here I think people are reading more into what I am saying that what I am actually saying. We all sin but what I am fearful of are those who have no sense of sin to even think of going to confession but wanting the ritual of a Catholic marriage, not the Sacrament.

They exist and to entertain or accommodate them is downright scandalous.

 

[babochka]

Reading the posts here I think people are reading more into what I am saying that what I am actually saying. We all sin but what I am fearful of are those who have no sense of sin to even think of going to confession but wanting the ritual of a Catholic marriage, not the Sacrament.

They exist and to entertain or accommodate them is downright scandalous.

But by your own admission, in the original post, we don’t know enough about these couples to make any sort of educated guess about what led them to marriage. so I’m not sure why this article led you to post your concern.

However what does concern me are the couples who have no intention of living apart prior to marriage and see this as a ritual rather than a Sacrament.

There is absolutely no basis in any of the articles I’ve read about this to assume that any of these couples is marrying with anything less than a desire to enter into Holy Matrimony. In fact, this quote leads me to believe that quite the opposite is the case with this couple:

“We’ve known each other for five years and our wanting to get married in the church stems from no longer wanting to live in a union and with feelings that are deprived of some of the sacraments,” the couple said.

I think it is little strange that the media, especially the Catholic media, has chosen to highlight this aspect of it, but I see no wrongdoing in the ceremony or in the article and I’m not led to belive that any of these couples is marrying simply because they want the "ritual of a Catholic marriage.’ Certainly, that is an issue in the Church, but how is this article connected to that problem?

 

[pianistclare]

Reading the posts here I think people are reading more into what I am saying that what I am actually saying. We all sin but what I am fearful of are those who have no sense of sin to even think of going to confession but wanting the ritual of a Catholic marriage, not the Sacrament.

They exist and to entertain or accommodate them is downright scandalous.

I don’t know why you would assume that the Pope is creating scandal.
There is no evidence of this in the article at all.
You can be fearful all you want, but people do repent.
It’s been known to happen.

 

[phil19034]

Reading the posts here I think people are reading more into what I am saying that what I am actually saying. We all sin but what I am fearful of are those who have no sense of sin to even think of going to confession but wanting the ritual of a Catholic marriage, not the Sacrament.

They exist and to entertain or accommodate them is downright scandalous.

I think its safe to assume that these couples want to return to the Church and live a sacramental life. I’m sure that their priests vetted them before hand.

I don’t think we have to worry about some marriage reality tv show starting up at the Vatican.

God Bless

 

[anthony022071]

Look at how journalists are spinning this.

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/the-pope/11092718/Pope-Francis-to-marry-couples-living-in-sin-in-first-for-his-papacy.html

< Pope Francis to marry couples ‘living in sin’ in first for his papacy >

< Couples who have been “living in sin” and women who had children out of wedlock will be married by Pope Francis at a ceremony at the Vatican on Sunday, in a further sign of his determination to make the Catholic Church more inclusive and compassionate. >

< In an interview last September, the Jesuit Pope said the Church must move away from its “obsession” with condemning homosexuality, abortion and contraception. It should become kinder and more merciful or risk collapsing “like a house of cards”. >

upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/09/12/Pope-to-marry-couples-living-in-sin/1161410544188/

< Pope to marry couples ‘living in sin’

The ceremony is meant to portray the Catholic Church as welcoming and compassionate. >

Once again,journalists are portraying Pope Francis as trying to get the Church to move away from its adherence to doctrine and to accept the immorality of the modern world,and the Church as if it is has not been compassionate and welcoming and inclusive.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Do you really, really have direct information about what kinds of couples were married by JPII when he was pope, under what conditions or circumstances?

The secular media have constantly portrayed JPII as a nice man, but in an ivory tower, distant from the complexity of human relationships, moralities in shades of grey, the dirt and sweat of imperfect humanity. Do you actually believe,in his time, the Nazis were pausing for the Angelus, the Communists were scrupulous about chastity, life in World War II was all about the virtues, and decades of dictatorship insulated priests from witnessing sin and sex? Instead of trusting the secular media, read the Theology of the Body to learn his viewpoint. There is far more complexity, shades of grey, dirt, sweat, nuances, different circumstances, complicating factors of guilt and redemption in his writings than in modern American Media and public education, including sex education.

The Media have misrepresent Pope Francis, but in a different way. They misrepresented JPII to show Catholicism was out of touch with the “regular folks”, but they omit his commitment to doctrinal orthodoxy and his reaffirmation of the supernatural realities, both good and evil. They twist his statements to show how “bright” he is, only as part of their plan to show how “dark” Catholicism is. This is the same injustice they did to the memory of John XXIII, who was a fully orthodox Catholic. They don’t love the real John or the real Francis.

These things are vetted to the max. Believe me that the couples are generally checked out because the Vatican doesn’t want Gabriella and Guido’s to slip under the radar and cause the Pope embarrassment. The fact that it appears that at least in this situation people in Gabriella and Guido’s situation were actually chosen for this honor. It is similar to how Francis baptized the civilly married couple’s baby last January. That was the first time this happened and this is likely the first time this will happen. I just think that these sorts of ceremonies tend to the perfect rather than understanding the real. I certainly cannot relate to the picture perfect twenty and thirty somethings that they generally trot out to encourage marriage and defend Church teachings.

And JPII always rubbed me the wrong. I think that it was because I was having major difficulties with the Catholic Church (bullying and such) when he was pope. There is nothing that says that a Catholic must personally like all the popes. I also don’t think that Francis isn’t a orthodox Catholic, but he is more accepting of people’s mistakes. He would call them sins and mistakes, but he is willing to celebrate their return with joy rather than shaming them more.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Right, because Pope Francis is the first Pope ever to teach compassion and Pope John Paul II taught that women should be submissive doormats who move from their fathers’ authority to their husbands’, destined to spend their lives barefoot and pregnant. Oh, right… he canonized St. Gianna Molla (a working mother) and gave us the beautiful Mulieris Dignitatem, and wrote the “letter to women”, which included these words:

There is no need to denigrate a past pope in order to show approval for the actions of Pope Francis. Besides, you cite no evidence whatsoever to back up your idea that this never would have happened in the past.

I have issues with Muleris Dignitatem as well as Gianna Molla’s canonization. (If she hadn’t died while giving birth to her child, she wouldn’t have been canonized for just being a working mom.)

But that wasn’t what I was getting at. If anything the issue is the Vatican ceremonial types who vet people for these things. They don’t want people whose backgrounds might embarrass the pope participating in high profile events. They generally don’t get real people with “messy backgrounds” for these things. Most of the couples JPII married were probably children of people connected to the Church in high profile ways and were very orthodox. I have no idea whether JPII would choose to marry couples 'living in sin" but I do know that he was probably not given the chance to prove that he would. Francis gets that the optics of these ceremonies have been off in the past and wants to shake things up.