Courtship Vs. Dating

[underacloud]

What I am saying is that dating can never be used by a Catholic to create a relationship with someone who we would never think of marrying.

I agree.

But some things are easier to address beforehand than others. Some things you find out as you get to know one another.

I completely agree that you don’t date someone once you know you would never marry them.

If we find ourselves on a bona fide date with someone who could not possibly be our spouse then we are doing it wrong.

Once you find that out, you move on - politely and respectfully of course.

That’s pretty much the point of dating, or courtship. Getting to know the person and gradually discerning the future prospects of the relationship.

 

[thewanderer]

Wow, I honestly thought people on this forum would be very pro courtship.

Haha yes though, perhaps you all are right. I realize now after rereading my post that I may be coming on as quite strong and overly …medieval?

Its really not so much that its “medieval” but rather that it seems unnatural and unnecessarily restrictive. Thats really what my problem with courtship comes down to, people adding unnecessary rules around the natural development of a relationship. I think this is problematic because of the fact that in discerning marriage it is so very important to get to know who the other person actually is, and who they are when trying to follow some set ideals about what a relationship should look like is really not necessarily the same as who they actually are.

I do think I will stick to my guns on the time frame thing though. But let me clarify. Obviously if it turns out the person you are “courting” is an evil psycho then a breakup may be good/ necessary. I’m only saying that you should stick with the person even while things dont go exactly as hoped or planned.
I’ll tell you why:
Because “being stuck with someone” is a glimpse at married life. Ok so they did something bad or it turns out that after the first 2 weeks this person is not very exciting… you still need to give them time to show their true character. BUT all the while remembering that if at the end of it if you DID stick with them and neither of you had any strong affection or willingness to sacrifice for each-other then its OK just to go your seperate ways. No breakup, no drama.

Remember:
Our character is determined by the choices we make.
Our love is determined by the sacrifices we make.

You need TIME to see both.

If you think there will never be drama when you break up after 4 months because the girl you dated just wasn’t doing it for you you have another thing coming with you. Dating/courting is messy, period. It involves a lot of emotions and expectations, and if you two are just not in the same place there will be hurt feelings, there just is no way to avoid that. The only way you can break up amicably is in the extremely rare case where you both realize that neither of you are actually interested in the other. committing to four months for sure is not a cure of this kind of drama.

Also, while I obviously agree with you that you often need a fair amount of time with people to discern whether or not they are a good fit for you, that is really not always true. And if you know the other person is not a good match for you, but they are actually interested in you, then continuing to date/court them for another 2-3 months is actually extremely harmful to them. It will give them more time to fall more deeply for you and to become more attatched to you, all the while you are just planning on breaking up with them. That is a recipe for disaster. Stringing other people along is always a terrible idea that always ends badly. While I really do understand that you’re trying to avoid the mistake of pre-judging people too quickly there are better ways to avoid that. Spend more time getting to know each other before you start to date exclusively. Give them a chance before there is a lot of emotion on the line, and, if after giving them that time to figure out who they really are you are still interested in them, then suggest an exclusive relationship and see where it goes from there. my :twocents:

 

[on_the_hill]

Whoa.

Dude, I think you need to pull back and evaluate your plan.

Frankly, I think you ought to evaluate whether or not you should have a plan to begin with.

My 16 year old daughter hasn’t been on a date yet, aside from “formals” at school. But if I were to show her your post, I think she’d deep six you and your plans. Full. Stop.

I have a good friend who tried and tried to plan out his relationships, his dates, etc. He was lonely until he got married at age 40, to a woman he met through a matchmaking service. (not an online one, but a real life matchmaker.) OTOH, he’s happy now.

Date, have fun, get to know people. If you’re meant to “court” someone, it will happen organically, naturally. This whole idea that dating is meant to discern whom you should marry–yes and no. Ultimately, yes. But until you reach that point, you’re almost assuredly going to end up with no one and nothing, because you won’t have gotten to know anyone well enough to know whether or not you should date that person unless you have dated that person. Savvy?

Insofar as you have “hung out” with the apple of your eye, what does that mean? Hung out? Has it all been group stuff where you’re just another face/voice in the crowd? Or have you had one-on-one conversations with her, just the two of you?

 

[thewanderer]

What’s the difference? In Catholic belief, dating must lead to marriage. It cannot be twisted to some other purpose. Dating is not for “hooking up”, “exploring options”, “questioning sexuality”, “having a no-strings good time”. Catholics should always be up-front that dating equals courting for us. Especially in these modern times, where the concept of dating is so perverted and twisted that it is unrecognizable.

It depends on what you mean by dating. If by dating you mean an exclusive relationship, then sure, of course both people need to know the relationship is aimed towards marriage, however, if by dating you simply mean “hang out in a non-exclusive relationship to find out whether or not I am interested in an exclusive relationship that is geared towards marriage with this person”, then, well, obviously this second kind of “dating” does not need to be immediately geared towards marriage. Its the first step on the road to discernment towards marriage, and is ultimately geared towards marriage, but marriage is remote enough that you don’t have the same kind of pressure that you do with courtship or a more exclusive dating relationship.

ETA I would never feel comfortable telling people that dating for Catholics is the same as courting. The reason I am not comfortable with that is that courting is associated with all sorts of rules and restrictions that I find completely unnecessary, such as the idea that you can never spend any time together alone, even if you’re just driving to the movies. etc. (As though the couple has so little self-control that they can’t even spend a short car ride without engaging in mortal sin - here’s a hint, if they have that little self-control they have no business dating/courting in the first place).

 

[on_the_hill]

What’s the difference? In Catholic belief, dating must lead to marriage.

Really? I’ve never seen this belief stated anywhere but on this forum.

 

[thewanderer]

Really? I’ve never seen this belief stated anywhere but on this forum.

I think a more accurate way to phrase it is that dating should always be ultimately ordered towards marriage, which makes sense, but that doesn’t mean there should be the pressure of discerning a marriage at every stage of dating.

 

[on_the_hill]

I think a more accurate way to phrase it is that dating should always be ultimately ordered towards marriage, which makes sense,

I can see the sense in that. How would you get married if you never spent one-on-one time with the person you were going to marry?

On the other hand, I don’t see a problem on going on dates for fun. I used to go dancing with a female friend. Her boyfriend didn’t like to dance. There was never any chance we’d have gotten married, never even gave a thought to the two of us having any sort of romantic relationship.

I guess it depends on what a person’s definition of “date” is.

 

[Elizium23]

Really? I’ve never seen this belief stated anywhere but on this forum.

Ask An Apologist

As to the question of same-sex marriage, the Church has spoken: It is not possible. Since dating is a preparation for and discernment of marriage, it follows that those who cannot marry each other should not be dating.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

It depends on what you mean by dating. If by dating you mean an exclusive relationship, then sure, of course both people need to know the relationship is aimed towards marriage, however, if by dating you simply mean “hang out in a non-exclusive relationship to find out whether or not I am interested in an exclusive relationship that is geared towards marriage with this person”, then, well, obviously this second kind of “dating” does not need to be immediately geared towards marriage. Its the first step on the road to discernment towards marriage, and is ultimately geared towards marriage, but marriage is remote enough that you don’t have the same kind of pressure that you do with courtship or a more exclusive dating relationship.

ETA I would never feel comfortable telling people that dating for Catholics is the same as courting. The reason I am not comfortable with that is that courting is associated with all sorts of rules and restrictions that I find completely unnecessary, such as the idea that you can never spend any time together alone, even if you’re just driving to the movies. etc. (As though the couple has so little self-control that they can’t even spend a short car ride without engaging in mortal sin - here’s a hint, if they have that little self-control they have no business dating/courting in the first place).

This. All of this.

 

[on_the_hill]

Ask An Apologist

Where does the Catholic Church teach about dating? Is there a Church doctrine?

Regardless, I didn’t follow the stricture that dating is reserved for marriage discernment, my wife didn’t, I don’t expect my kids will. They might, but that’s up to them.

I don’t think it’s good advice.

 

[marceleonidas]

Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear.

First off I agree with Elezium insofar as dating is really just the searching for a spouse. Like he said, I couldn’t possibly imagine dating someone whom I could never eventually marry.

Also I’m not looking for advice on how to approach this girl. I gave you a quick backdrop “story” only so that I could pose the question of Dating Vs. Coursthip. I didnt tell you the whole thing or all of my thoughts on my particular situtation- So please just address the idea of courting vs dating. Thanks

So let me rephrase. No, I would never invite a girl out and then on the first date say

“hey we should court because I think I want to marry you and also you have to stick with me for 4 months”

Rather, I would say (after perhaps after 3/4 non exclusive dates):

“Listen, I really like you but I want to know what we are doing. Will we just keep going on dates? I don’t want to waste your time or my own so lets just be clear about what our intentions are.”

You say:
“”“Dating - you ask them to spend some time with you.
Courting - you ask them to consider you as a spouse.”""

I say:
Dating- you ask them to spend time with you but don’t tell them WHY or for how long you want to just date
Courting - you ask them to spend time with with a clear and common interest as to why

 

[twf]

My ideal dating for that age and even now is friends only. No physical affection that you wouldn’t do with one of your guy buddies. If and when you both realize there may be more, you can talk about what you would both like to do in terms of becoming a couple. Plan things publicly to avoid temptation and/or go on double dates. Treat her kindly, respect her body and stay chaste

“No physical affection that you wouldn’t do with one of your guy buddies.” For most of the guys I know that would rule out hand holding or hugging…not sure if that’s the best standard to give to a young guy.

 

[underacloud]

Rather, I would say (after perhaps after 3/4 non exclusive dates):

“Listen, I really like you but I want to know what we are doing. Will we just keep going on dates? I don’t want to waste your time or my own so lets just be clear about what our intentions are.”

Why not just go on a few dates and see how it goes? Why the need for a specific plan?

Most people manage to sort this sort of thing out more organically than going in with a set plan. It’s great that you’re thinking ahead and don’t want to waste your time or her’s, but I think you risk being a little too rigid.

I don’t think you have to ask about her intentions - in fact, I think that’s too much pressure - but it is very reasonable to suggest that you are only interested in dating exclusively after a few dates.

 

[thewanderer]

I can see the sense in that. How would you get married if you never spent one-on-one time with the person you were going to marry?

On the other hand, I don’t see a problem on going on dates for fun. I used to go dancing with a female friend. Her boyfriend didn’t like to dance. There was never any chance we’d have gotten married, never even gave a thought to the two of us having any sort of romantic relationship.

I guess it depends on what a person’s definition of “date” is.

Yeah, I would consider that just hanging out with her, so, if by date you just mean “hang out with as friends with no intentions whatsoever of even considering the other person as a potential spouse” then, well, yeah, of course that kind of “dating” needn’t be ordered towards marriage at all, thats just friendship.

 

[Xantippe]

Why not just go on a few dates and see how it goes? Why the need for a specific plan?

Most people manage to sort this sort of thing out more organically than going in with a set plan. It’s great that you’re thinking ahead and don’t want to waste your time or her’s, but I think you risk being a little too rigid.

I don’t think you have to ask about her intentions - in fact, I think that’s too much pressure - but it is very reasonable to suggest that you are only interested in dating exclusively after a few dates.

Right–asking to be exclusive is a good way to go to make it clear that you are serious. But once you do that, you have to formally break up if you’re not moving forward.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Why not just go on a few dates and see how it goes? Why the need for a specific plan?

Most people manage to sort this sort of thing out more organically than going in with a set plan. It’s great that you’re thinking ahead and don’t want to waste your time or her’s, but I think you risk being a little too rigid.

I don’t think you have to ask about her intentions - in fact, I think that’s too much pressure - but it is very reasonable to suggest that you are only interested in dating exclusively after a few dates.

 

[thewanderer]

Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear.

First off I agree with Elezium insofar as dating is really just the searching for a spouse. Like he said, I couldn’t possibly imagine dating someone whom I could never eventually marry.

Also I’m not looking for advice on how to approach this girl. I gave you a quick backdrop “story” only so that I could pose the question of Dating Vs. Coursthip. I didnt tell you the whole thing or all of my thoughts on my particular situtation- So please just address the idea of courting vs dating. Thanks

Just to make sure we’re on the same page, are you referring to the advice not to lead people on? Because I believe that was meant as a commentary on your idea of courtship not as advice for how to approach this particular girl.

So let me rephrase. No, I would never invite a girl out and then on the first date say

“hey we should court because I think I want to marry you and also you have to stick with me for 4 months”

Thanks for the clarification, from your earlier posts about courtship that is exactly what it sounded like you wanted to do. I’m glad we’re all on the same page that this is a bad idea.

Rather, I would say (after perhaps after 3/4 non exclusive dates):

“Listen, I really like you but I want to know what we are doing. Will we just keep going on dates? I don’t want to waste your time or my own so lets just be clear about what our intentions are.”

Basically, you want to give a timeframe for when you have the “define the relationship” talk. This may come as a surprise to you, but practically all dating couples have this talk at some point, usually sooner than later. Its just natural. You want to know where you both stand. This isn’t something reserved to courting. Its just common sense. However, usually, this happens as the relationship begins to naturally develop, so, having this talk too early would just be weird and off-putting, so, again, I would avoid pre-determining a set timeframe by which you will bring this up. As you grow closer and feel more and more inclined to an exclusive relationship you will naturally want to define your relationship and figure out where you both are so that you can get on the same page.

You say:
“”“Dating - you ask them to spend some time with you.
Courting - you ask them to consider you as a spouse.”""

I say:
Dating- you ask them to spend time with you but don’t tell them WHY or for how long you want to just date
Courting - you ask them to spend time with with a clear and common interest as to why

I’m sorry, but that is a completely false idea of dating. Basically, you are defining dating as something that intrinsically is not ordered towards anything further. But that is not what dating is. I dated my husband. We both were on the same page that our dating was ultimately ordered towards marriage. I know many other people who dated and who, in doing so, were clear that the ultimate, even if still remote, purpose of dating is to find out if you want to marry the other person. It sounds to me as though you wish to split dating up into “healthy dating” and “unhealthy dating” and label “unhealthy dating” just “dating” while labeling “healthy dating” “courtship”. Do you see what I am saying?

 

[Iheartcoffee]

People make dating out to sound like some kind of giant orgy, but I know plenty of people that are perfectly moral people that “date” and find “courtship” to be a stuffy overly-serious model that puts way too much pressure on way too early.

Dating can be casual. Dating can allow a person to spend quality time with a variety of good people and get to know both what they want in a relationship and who they need to be to be a good half of a relationship. You can “date” understanding fully that marriage is a goal, but there’s no need to jump into a first date with, “Hmmm, will this person use TurboTax each year or insist on a CPA when we merge finances…” before you even know what kind of movies they watch or their favorite color!

Frankly, 99% of “courtship” discussions have always left me feeling like people are setting themselves up for an awkward job interview of sorts and always in front of family and friends. They also tend to assume that if you leave the “courting” couple alone for 5 seconds they can’t be trusted. This always irked me. Dating, with all it’s freedom and alone time can be done perfectly morally and it can allow for a person to meet quite a few really interesting people and get to know them without the need to talk about marriage straight out of the gate. Generally, people that want to marry as their final goal seek out others that seem to be looking for that same goal, so dating can be done with marriage in mind but without making it so serious so fast. I have always known marriage to be a goal of dating, but I guarantee if a guy had insisted on “courting” me and making everything about marriage immediately I would have been seriously turned off by it because it would have been too much seriousness too fast.

I like “dating” instead of “courting” because dating is often done with the intent of marriage but with a chance to first see if there is any real attraction or common interests before creating any official definition of the relationship.

I know a lot of people on these boards also really like to tear down the idea of teenage dating, but I wouldn’t be here if my grandparents hadn’t fallen in love as young teenagers. (They married after high school). I know a lot of happy marriages that happened because people started dating young. Don’t assume all young love and high school dating is just hormones and bad decisions. It can be done morally and it can absolutely lead to marriage.

 

[thewanderer]

There’s a really good anti-courtship piece that I can’t find right now that explains that system, which is what our grandparents understood by dating–the reason “going steady” was a thing was that there wasn’t the assumption that going out once or twice with somebody meant that you needed to either stick with them or break up. You could go out with somebody from time to time without “going steady.”

I think dating needs a second look. A lot of courtship ideas are good, but AFTER you’ve located a good prospect via old school dating.

I think I may have found the article you are thinking of. Is this the right one?

thomasumstattd.com/2014/08/courtship-fundamentally-flawed/

 

[Xantippe]

I think I may have found the article you are thinking of. Is this the right one?

thomasumstattd.com/2014/08/courtship-fundamentally-flawed/

Yes!

That is exactly the one.