Covenant...forever?

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How does a Christian reconcile a New Covenant, with
God promising Abraham that the Covenant He made with
him would be forever?

usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis17.htm

Has God broken faith with Abraham? Has the original
Covenant been abrogated? God gave His word to
Abraham, and His word, literally, to Moses and the
Israelites.

If it is maintained that the New Covenant replaces the
Covenant with Abraham, and later, Israel, the problem
still remains. Did God keep faith with Abraham?

reen12
 
the covenant is not abrogated, it has been fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ which is why we are now living under the new covenant referred to in the words of consecration.
 
I agree with puzzleannie that the New Covenant is the fulfillment of the Old.
God tells Abraham (Abram at the time he is told this) that “in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Genesis 12:3). Christ was a descendant of Abraham (Matthew 1:1). In Christ, all the families of the earth, Jew and Gentile, are blessed. The promise of God is fulfilled, not abrogated.
St. Paul discusses this at length in his letter to the Romans. He says, “They are Israeltes, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel, and not all of Abraham’s children are his true descendants; but ‘It is through Isaac that descendants shall be named for you.’ This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.” (Romans 9:4-8)
 
Hi, Grace and Glory,

quote: Grace and Glory, quoting St. Paul
It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel, and not all of Abraham’s children are his true descendants; but ‘It is through Isaac that descendants shall be named for you.’ This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants." (Romans 9:4-8
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Quote, St.Paul:
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.
Click to expand...
For a God Who insisted on circumcision of the flesh,
who stressed the “seed of Abraham,” this appears to
be a tour de force on the part of Paul of Tarsus, a
former Pharisee, who sat at the feet of Galmaliel,
one of the foremost rabbinic authorities in Israel.

The quote in Genesis states: “…thoughout the ages,”
not “until Messiah is born.”

We can say “fulfilled” til the cows come home, but
nowhere in Judaic thought is the concept of Messiah
and “fulfillment” of the Covenant found. That is solely
a Christian interpretation, reversing that held by
Israel for millenia.

So, the question remains, did God break faith with
Israel?

reen12
 
If a new covenant would imply that God broke faith with Israel, what is the meaning of God promising to make a new covenant with his people?
“The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of Egypt–a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD” (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
Also, it would seem to me that the Christian understanding of the relationship between the New and the Old Covenants would of necessity be different from what had been thought before because the promises made under the Old Covenant become clearer when they are fulfilled. I’m not expecting you to agree with this, but it does explain why, for me at least, pointing out that St. Paul’s interpretation was new does not make me automatically think he is wrong.
 
reen,

If Covenant Theology is a subject which really interests you, I recommend Scott Hahn’s book “A Father Who Keeps His Promises”. The entire book is a study of the various Covenants of God, and how God is faithful to old Covenants while establishing new Covenants.

If you really want to know the answer to your question, just go down to the local Barnes & Nobles and take a read. If you don’t want to know the answer…well…don’t ask. 😉

May the Peace of Christ be with you always,
RyanL
 
Ryan,

quote:** Ryan**
If you don’t want to know the answer…well…don’t ask. 😉
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May the Peace of Christ be with you always,
RyanL

I find those two sentences, juxtaposed, dizzying in the
message they contain.

First, a sentence that that I find offensive.

Second, a reference to the Peace of Christ.
Which is it, Ryan?

Perhaps you might consult the sentences marked
in blue, below.

*Never *has a Jew spoken to me like this:
If you don’t want to know the answer…well…don’t ask.
Click to expand...
Small wonder that I find God, and the peace of God
[shalom] within Israel.

reen12
 
Dear Grace and Glory,

That’s a good quote from Jeremiah. Jeremiah 31:31-32
You see, for decades I just accepted the idea that
the Covenant was “fulfilled.”

The more I read, the less convinced I become that
that was even possible, given the nature of an eternal
covenant.

Perhaps I’ll take a look at the Hahn book, suggested
by another poster.

The whole idea that one covenant can be
“fulfilled” [while no mention of “fulfillment” was made
in the Original Covenant] puts me in mind of a
modern day contract that would read:

This contract is binding on both parties 'til the
end of ages…unless one party to the contract
decides to fulfill it, differently than stated.
[eternal does not mean “eternal”] fine print

Who would sign a contract like that?

Best,
reen12

P.S. I just looked at the footnotes for Jer.31: 31-32.
This will certainly require more investigation on my
part.🙂 Thank you for your courtesy, Grace and Glory.
 
reen12,

Please understand that I meant no offense. In re-reading my post, I still don’t see anything at which to take offense. I included the little winky smiley guy at the end to ensure this was read in a light-hearted manner. Your post count is sufficiently high, and you were a Catholic, so you should know by now that the Peace of Christ is a good thing to offer someone. If it was in some way offensive, I apologize for the lack of clarity in my intent.

As for the last sentence: it was an attempt to ensure that you are staying pure in your questioning, and not engaging in polemics. Truly, if you are interested in Covenant Theology, Dr. Hahn has done significant post-graduate work in this field, and presents it in an appealing and easy to understand manner. Again, I highly recommend his book.

Shalom,
RyanL
 
Hi, RyanL,

Thank you for your gracious reply.

As I said to another poster, perhaps I will get
a copy of Scott Hahn’s book, since it deals
solely with Covenant theology.

I think my question is more propelled
by indignation, rather than polemics.
[Judaism does not prosylitize.]

If I had been presented the Faith, with a rabbinic
scholar proposing objections, I would have been
able to sort out what I thought about the relation
of Israel/Catholicism.

I believe I would have felt the same way, had I
been raised within Judaism. [Having a person
like Pope Benedict in the classroom, challenging
the Judaic view. An unlikely scenario, I know.:o]

That’s why I found Grace and Glory’s reply so
helpful. An actual biblical quote. Which makes
me think that Dr. Hahn’s book, that you suggested,
would contain similar material that would be helpful.

As a matter of fact, I’m going to go over to Amazon
to see if I can order it online.

Just bear with me, will you Ryan?

Peace 🙂

reen12
P.S. I’ve ordered the book!
 
reen12,

Your reply fills me with joy, and I sing praises to the Lord with my whole heart!



As a cradle Catholic who never knew his faith, I thank Dr. Hahn for helping me read the Bible with new eyes. I also thank Rosalind Moss (current Catholic Answers apologist: catholic.com/seminars/moss.asp ) for teaching me how much we have to learn from our Jewish parents. If you PM me with your e-mail address, I’ll send you some MP3s of hers that you may be interested in.

…I hope that’s not piracy…

Shalom,
RyanL
 
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Covenant that God made with Abraham is still in force with those who are adherents of Judaism. Christians are under the New Covenant. Also to paraphrase from the Gospel of John, Jesus tells the phrasees that they will be judged under the law of Moses becaus they did not accept and believe in Him.
 
Hi, rwoehmke,
quote:** rwoehmke**
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Covenant that God made with Abraham is still in force with those who are adherents of Judaism. Christians are under the New Covenant. Also to paraphrase from the Gospel of John, Jesus tells the phrasees that they will be judged under the law of Moses becaus they did not accept and believe in Him.
Click to expand...
Now, that would make more sense to me. I’ve got the
book Salvation is From the Jews, which I only read a
small part of, and I think I’ll read that while waiting for
Dr. Hahn’s book to arrive in the mail.

I have several other points that I’ll raise, as time goes
by, based on my reading of Judaic sources, but perhaps
some of them will be answered in the two books I’m
going to read.

Many thanks for your reply,
reen12
 
reen12,
I hope that the books you’re reading will help you better understand the relationship between the Old and New Covenants. I haven’t read either book, but it sounds like they’re probably books I should read, too. I’m glad you thought my reply was helpful.
Be sure to let us know what you find out from your reading!
Grace and Glory
 
Hi, Grace and Glory,

quote: Grace and Glory
Be sure to let us know what you find out from your reading!
Click to expand...
I sure will. I’ve already got 2 solid questions on the
material in the book Salvation is from the Jews,
but I’ll hold the questions until I’ve finished reading
the book.

Best,
reen12
 
Thanks, itsjustdave,

You know, I was just reading on a Judaic website,
about how one has an inclination to good, and an
inclination to evil. It is said that the* reason* the two
exist, is so that man can feel that he has earned his
place in the world to come, and not feel like he’s
given something for nothing…

Whoa! I said to myself.

I own nothing, I “earn” nothing…all is a gift of God’s
grace and mercy. [Ooops, there’s my Catholicism barging in.] :o

I hear Catholics maundering on about who’s going
to heaven, “invincible ignorance” until I want to
shout: Stop it! For heaven’s sake, stop!

Now I read, on the Judaic site, that one likes to feel
that one’s *earned *one’s place in what we’d call
heaven. And I say: For heaven’s sake. We own
nothing, we “earn” nothing.

I think I’ll spend the rest of my life, [15-25 years?]
quietly asking God to have mercy on all of us.

I guess I’ll have to go and state that I’m withdrawing
from Noahide status. Nothing in my life experience
leads me to believe that any good that I’ve done,
would somehow entitle me to God’s Presence.

reen12
 
Maureen,
I hear Catholics maundering on about who’s going
to heaven, “invincible ignorance” until I want to
shout: Stop it! For heaven’s sake, stop!
Click to expand...
I suppose I see it as simply trying to come to grips with Catholic soteriology, from an objective viewpoint, not trying to subjectively figure out who’s going to hell. In other words, it’s a way of “pondering these things in their heart” but also putting it to words in a discussion forum, leaning on others for help in understanding these things.

As for merit properly so-called, only Jesus has merited in this manner, for all mankind. This is like being paid the just wage for work completed. The work completed by Jesus on Calvary has merited the grace of atonement for all mankind. This kind of merit is called condign merit.

Yet there’s another kind of merit, which is really pseudo-merit and not merit properly so-called, but is referred to as congruous merit. This is the “reward” that Scripture speaks of for being a good and faithful servant. This kind of merit is easy for a military guy like myself to understand, as it is likened to a military medal awarded for meritorious service. Nobody has a strict right to a medal, and so it is gratuitous. Yet such reward is a reality, and in accord with distributive justice, purely based on the kindness of the reward- giver.

If this is the kind of reward that the rabbi’s are referring to, Catholicism sees this kind of merit as a supernatural gift from God, completely gratuitous yet a very real blessing in response to faithfulness.

I’m praying for you Maureen. Of course I believe you ought to embrace Catholicism 😉 , but I understand the impediments that may keep people in doubt.

For those who tend toward being overly focused on fire and brimstone, or overly scrupulous in their conscience about their unworthiness, I recommend they prayerfully reflect upon what St. Athanasius teaches, which I believe with all my heart…

**St. Athanasius (ca. AD 358): **"when someone falls from the Spirit through any wickedness—that grace indeed remains irrevocably with those who are willing to repent after such a fall. (Discourses Against the Arians, 3, 24-25, ca. AD 358 )
 
Wow, Dave, that was a great post!! Many, many
thanks.
quote: itsjustdave
If this is the kind of reward that the rabbi’s are referring to, Catholicism sees this kind of merit as a supernatural gift from God, completely gratuitous yet a very real blessing in response to faithfulness.
Click to expand...
I kept thinking; there’s something understandable about the
Judaic postion, but there’s something missing, too. You’ve
given me the answer.

quote:** itsjustdave**
I’m praying for you Maureen. Of course I believe you ought to embrace Catholicism 😉 , but I understand the impediments that may keep people in doubt.
Click to expand...
Dave, I’m a looney, for lack of a better term.
I am soooo ill, psychologically [most of it’s genetic].
But it’s never touched my intellect, thank God.
I also thank Him that I’ve been able to function,
and that I am well loved by my family, friends and
neighbors, despite my illness.
The illness constitues a major impediment, and,
in my heart of hearts, I know God loves me and
will reward me, if for nothing else, than being
brave.
You are excellent at Apologetics, Dave.
Have you ever thought of becoming a deacon,
when you’ve completed your military career?

Thank you for your service to our country.

Maureen
 
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