Covered by the Blood?

[Mark77]

Don’t Catholics pray to Mary and others who are dead?

Deuteronomy 18:
9When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

definition of necromancer: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Don’t Catholics believe Jesus is God?

Hosea 11: 9
…for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee…

Num 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Isa 45:21-22
…there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa 42:8
I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Perhaps they did not notice for the same reasons that Catholics do not notice what is written concerning the true Nature of God.

We Catholics firmly believe and have taught for over 2000 years that there is only one GOD as revealed to us in the Holy Trinity, God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit!

Jesus’ Mother Mary isn’t “dead”, “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.” Mk 12:27 (KJV for you Protestants who believe that Jesus only read the KING JAMES BIBLE???)

Mary lives eternal life in Heaven with her son Jesus and all of the Saints. I bet Jesus would be really annoyed if it is true that you do not respect His Mother!

These eternally stupid arguments, “Catholics worship Mary”, etc. are so annoying. We do not worship anyone but GOD! We honor (venerate) Mary as God commanded us “Honor your Mother and Father”. We ask Mary and all the Saints to pray or to intercede for us and take our prayers to Jesus.

“Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven”.

“Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;” Romans 15:30, see also Col 4:3; 1Thess 5:25; 2Thess 1:11, 3:1; Eph 6:18-19, Rev 5:8, In all these Scripture quotes we ask others to pray for us.

There is no “notion of works”, “but, after thy hardness and impenitent heart, treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds” Rom 2:5-6

Jesus saved us, but we must accept His gift. “And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” Lk 9:23

There is no “Once Saved Always Saved”, we must DENY OURSELVES AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS DAILY AND FOLLOW HIM!!! THAT MEANS DEEDS, WORKS OR WHATEVER ELSE YOU CALL IT, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING AS A RESULT OF ACCEPTING JESUS IN OUR HEARTS!!!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark

 

[simplynoone]

These eternally stupid arguments, “Catholics worship Mary”, etc. are so annoying.

Good thing I did not say you worship Mary, huh?

Specifically what I said in my post was that the…
definition of necromancer: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Mary IS dead. Final… end point. We live, we die. Mary was no exception. You do not get to claim she is alive when she clearly is NOT. That is only an excuse that is used to try and get by with conjuring of the dead whilst not feeling guilty about it considering that God declared such activities to be abominations.

 

[Bookworm88]

To me, those who invoke that seem to be saying that Jesus’ sacrifice means that they can continue sinning, because their sins have been covered. They don’t understand that “Every time you sin, you hurt Jesus”

Are you telling me that Catholics do NOT continue sinning? I think we all continue sinning, but the question then becomes - What do those sins do to us? From what I understand, Catholics believe that their baptism washes away the stain of original sin, but do they get stained again in some sort of other way as soon as they commit a sin after baptism? If they DO get stained, what does that stain mean? Does it mean that one sin stain will automatically send them to Hell if they were to die before they get to confession? I realize you guys make a distinction between mortal and venial sins. Is there a difference in the stain caused by those two types? Do only mortal sins stain you enough to send you to Hell, but you can commit as many venial sins as you want without worrying about Hell? I don’t see the concept of “mortal sin” and “venial sin” being mentioned in the Bible, anyway.

 

[Bookworm88]

This doesn’t take works on our part to make it happen. but rather it is " to all and on all who believe" as verse 22 says. So even though all have sinned, we can see that all who believe are justified freely by God’s grace.

Isn’t the act of saving faith itself a good work? After all, YOU are the one who actually has to do the believing.

What “act” are you talking about here? If you tell me that you can juggle, and I believe you, have I performed some act? If the Bible tells me that Christ’s death has satisfied the penalty for sin, and I take God at His word, how is that an “act” that I have performed?

 

[planten]

It’s based on what John the Baptist said when he saw Jesus: “Behold, the Lamb of God who covers the sins of the world.”

(For those who don’t get it, I’m being ironic.)

**The words “covers the sins” could be read as “Cures the sins” of the world. Even though “covers” is also correct in another sense, i.e. to forgive. **.

 

[planten]

Good thing I did not say you worship Mary, huh?

Specifically what I said in my post was that the…
definition of necromancer: conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of revealing the future or influencing the course of events

Mary IS dead. Final… end point. We live, we die. Mary was no exception. You do not get to claim she is alive when she clearly is NOT. That is only an excuse that is used to try and get by with conjuring of the dead whilst not feeling guilty about it considering that God declared such activities to be abominations.

** That is right. Every one has died. Muhammad has died. Jesus has died. Moses has died. Mary (the famous mother) has died. Abraham, Noah and Adam have died. Those who were born in this world have all died after passing their good or bad time here. This is the logical, natural, rational, scientific, right teaching to be accepted and perfectly believed. All saints have died. None is now living bodily.

All of the above mentioned may be alive in a different sense (spiritually) but not with this worldly body. They may be having new bodies of light or smoke according to their good or bad deeds in this world.**

 

[SHW]

…it is a direct expression of the doctrine of total depravity which teaches that Jesus’ sacrifice does not remove our sin but God saves us anyway because of it.

Yes, they believe that we are always depraved so Jesus’ blood covers for us at all times after we accept Him as our Savior. We need take no personal responsibility for our own disobedience to God’s commandments because we will not be judged. We go directly to the Believers’ Judgment (Great White Throne Judgment) where we are only rewarded for the good things that we have done in the body. Those who do not accept Jesus as their Savior are judged elsewhere.

But, we Catholics know that when we are sanctified (made holy) by Baptism (1 Corinthians 6:11), we are no longer enemies of God (Romans 5). Instead the Holy Spirit dwells within us because we are holy. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

We Catholics also know that if we disobey God’s commandments, then Jesus’ sacrifice no longer covers for us.

Hebrews 10:26-30 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”

SHW

 

[Bookworm88]

But, we Catholics know that when we are sanctified (made holy) by Baptism (1 Corinthians 6:11), we are no longer enemies of God (Romans 5). Instead the Holy Spirit dwells within us because we are holy. (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

but doesn’t all that end the very moment a person would commit their first sin? After all, the next thing you wrote in your post was:
"*We Catholics also know that if we disobey God’s commandments, then Jesus’ sacrifice no longer covers for us.
Hebrews 10:26-30 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. *”
So what you seem to be telling me here is that one sin would override everything that had happened at their baptism and would send a Catholic to Hell.

 

[SHW]

but doesn’t all that end the very moment a person would commit their first sin? After all, the next thing you wrote in your post was:
"We Catholics also know that if we disobey God’s commandments, then Jesus’ sacrifice no longer covers for us.
Hebrews 10:26-30 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. "
So what you seem to be telling me here is that one sin would override everything that had happened at their baptism and would send a Catholic to Hell.

Only “mortal” sins (sins that cause the death of spiritual life within the soul) send Catholics (and others) to hell. “Venial” sins do not cause the death of spiritual life in our souls. Just one mortal sin causes the death of spiritual life within our souls.

1 John 5:17 “All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.”

This is describing venial sins. Sins that do not lead to the death of spiritual life within our souls are venial sins.

1 John 5:16 “If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. (venial sins) There is sin leading to death.” (mortal sins)

Romans 6:16 “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?”

Sins which lead to death, those which cause the death of spiritual life, are called mortal sins.

What are some examples of mortal sins?

The rich young ruler asked Jesus what he must do in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus replied that if he wanted to enter into life, then he must keep the commandments. The man asked "which ones?"

Jesus replied: “You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Matthew 19:16-19

Jesus replied that these commandments must be obeyed in order for us to enter into eternal life.

When we are baptized, we are sanctified, (1 Corinthians 6:11) and the Holy Spirit moves into our souls. If we sin mortal sins, then we defile our temples, and He moves out. We cannot be saved and inherit eternal life when we die unless the Holy Spirit is abiding within our souls at the time of our deaths. If we defile our temples with mortal sin, and we do not repent before death, then God destroys us (condemns us). (1 Corinthians 3:16-18)

Ezekiel sums up righteousness and the consequences of sin very well:

Ezekiel 33:12-20 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die (lose eternal life). 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.”

Only those persons who actually obey His commandments are given eternal life.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Bookworm88]

Only “mortal” sins (sins that cause the death of spiritual life within the soul) send Catholics (and others) to hell. “Venial” sins do not cause the death of spiritual life in our souls. Just one mortal sin causes the death of spiritual life within our souls.

So if a mortal sin causes the death of spiritual life, is every repentence of mortal sin a “birth” experience? It would have to be if your spiritual life is dead, wouldn’t it?

1 John 5:17 “All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.”

This is describing venial sins. Sins that do not lead to the death of spiritual life within our souls are venial sins.

So venial sins are unrighteousness, but they don’t lead to death. Is that right? Does that mean that Catholics are not concerned aboput venial sins? After all, this is the same approach that Protestants use for ALL sins, since we don’t see the same distinction as you guys do between “venial” and “mortal” sins. So if we Protestants are going to be accused by some of not caring about sin or of believing that we can just keep sinning without penalty, then shouldn’t the same accusation be leveled against the idea of “venial” sins? When you say that “Sins that do not lead to the death of spiritual life within our souls are venial sins,” aren’t you really saying “We can commit as many venial sins as we want without worrying about spiritual penalty”?

You gave me a list of things you see as mortal sins. Perhaps it would help me see your position if you gave me a list of things you consider to be venial sins.

Only those persons who actually obey His commandments are given eternal life.

Okay, but what if you miss one commandment? If salvation is only dependent on our own obedience, can anyone actually make it?

 

[SHW]

So if a mortal sin causes the death of spiritual life, is every repentence of mortal sin a “birth” experience? It would have to be if your spiritual life is dead, wouldn’t it?

We can only be “born again” once as far as regeneration (spiritual rebirth) is concerned (Titus 3:5). This is referring to redemption through Baptism. Baptism removes Original Sin (Adam’s sin). Baptism leaves a mark or character on our souls which cannot be removed. The “Power” of the Holy Spirit actually makes this special mark when He removes Original Sin (Romans 5). We can only be redeemed from Adam’s sin once.

Baptism also removes all the personal sins that we have on our souls at this same time and so we are justified (made worthy to enter eternal life) through Baptism and if we die at this time we will immediately go to heaven.(Acts 13:38-40, Romans 3:22-26). Baptism gives us “hope of eternal life” if we do not die immediately after Baptism. (Titus 3:7)

So with this in mind, if we sin mortal sins after our Baptisms, we lose our justification but if we repent, we can be justified again. Both redemption and justification sanctify us (make us holy temples of the Holy Spirit). We cannot lose our redemption but we can lose our justification (right to enter eternal life). We need to be in possession of both redemption and justification at our deaths in order to enter into eternal life.

The OT saints were waiting in Limbo (bosom of Abraham) for Jesus to redeem them (Luke 16:22-24). They could not enter eternal life in heaven until after Jesus died, rose, and ascended into heaven. They were accepted by God for eternal life because He accepts from every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness. (Acts 10:34-35)

What if you do not fear (obey) God and work righteousness (do good works) after your redemption and justification?

James 2:20-26 “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

If you do good works, you continue in your justification; if you do evil works, you lose your justification.

1 Peter 1:17 “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Revelation 3:11 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.”

We are judged by our works on Judgment Day as proof of our genuine faith. (1 Peter 1:7)

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

So venial sins are unrighteousness, but they don’t lead to death. Is that right? Does that mean that Catholics are not concerned about venial sins?

Venial sins can lead to mortal sins. They are a slippery slope to perdition if not dealt with immediately and properly. Catholics must be concerned about venial sins.

Matthew 5:29 “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.”

John 8:34 “Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.”

Romans 6:16 “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?”

Hebrews 3:12-15 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

After all, this is the same approach that Protestants use for ALL sins, since we don’t see the same distinction as you guys do between “venial” and “mortal” sins. So if we Protestants are going to be accused by some of not caring about sin or of believing that we can just keep sinning without penalty, then shouldn’t the same accusation be leveled against the idea of “venial” sins?

When you say that “Sins that do not lead to the death of spiritual life within our souls are venial sins,” aren’t you really saying “We can commit as many venial sins as we want without worrying about spiritual penalty”?

John 5:14 "Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

Luke 6:41 “And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?”

All unrighteousness is sin. If we continue to sin venial sins without trying to eradicate them from our lives, then we will eventually commit a mortal sin and lose our justification. We cannot live holy lives without the Holy Spirit’s help. We must cooperate with His indwelling grace in order to remain justified. (Ephesians 4:30, 2 Timothy 1:14) We use our own free wills to sin. (Acts 5:32 Acts 9:31)

Hebrews 6:4-6 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”

The writer of Hebrews is warning us using hyperbole (exaggeration) to explain about the seriousness of sin and its consequences. By stating that “it is impossible to be renewed again to repentance” after sinning a mortal sin, he is actually showing us the seriousness of losing our justification through mortal sin. Another example of hyperbole is Matthew 5:29. (God really does not want us to literally pluck our eye out. He wants us to be aware of the consequence of sin: eternal damnation, and to make the changes necessary in our lives in order to prevent our damnation.)

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

You gave me a list of things you see as mortal sins. Perhaps it would help me see your position if you gave me a list of things you consider to be venial sins.

Yelling at your kids to be quiet because you are tired.

Saying that you love “certain movies, etc.” in order to fit in with the crowd instead of saying that you actually detest them. (White lies.)

The degree of seriousness of sin also depends on the “intention” of the person committing it. Jesus judges our hearts. (Matthew 5:8)

Okay, but what if you miss one commandment? If salvation is only dependent on our own obedience, can anyone actually make it?

If you commit just one mortal sin such as adultery and do not repent before death, then you will not be saved.

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” See also Ephesians 5:3-8.

Salvation is not dependent only on our own obedience. Jesus, along with the Holy Spirit and His Father are always waiting for us to call on them so that they can help us. We cannot become holy by using only our own wills.

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

Since Jesus/Word, the Son of God, humbled Himself, came to earth, and redeemed us by His sacrificial death on the cross in order for us to have hope of inheriting eternal life; then it is most reasonable that we are expected to become living sacrifices, holy, and acceptable to God in thanksgiving for His sacrifice of love for us.

Colossians 3:12-17 "Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

We can’t do it alone. But we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. (Philippians 4:13)

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

1 John 2:3-5 “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him (keep His commandments).”

Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[Syele]

the Catholic position is that our sins aren’t “covered up” by the Blood of Jesus, but washed away

imo, that is much better!

and more supported by Scripture. We become “white as snow”… we don’t just LOOK white as snow.

If you are White as Snow, why do you need to be made pure in purgatory? If its really all completely removed as if you never did it, then you should need no further purification.

Continued:

Yelling at your kids to be quiet because you are tired.

Saying that you love “certain movies, etc.” in order to fit in with the crowd instead of saying that you actually detest them. (White lies.)

Why are these less serious? Yelling at your kids cause you are tired is breaking one of the two main commandments Jesus gave… loving others as yourself. White lies are against the commandment to not lie (not to mention the charge of vanity in wanting to look good to friends!). these are basic breakage of Gods law so I would say they are a serious matter. Its not like most people do not know these things are wrong, and you aren’t being coerced into doing them… so how are they not mortal sins? To me, this sounds like a human designation of seriousness rather than Gods. The wages of sin is death. not the wages of the sins you think are particularly bad is death…

 

[Bookworm88]

We can only be “born again” once as far as regeneration (spiritual rebirth) is concerned (Titus 3:5). This is referring to redemption through Baptism. Baptism removes Original Sin (Adam’s sin). Baptism leaves a mark or character on our souls which cannot be removed. The “Power” of the Holy Spirit actually makes this special mark when He removes Original Sin (Romans 5). We can only be redeemed from Adam’s sin once.

Very interesting. So there IS a “once saved/always saved” type position that Catholics have in regards specifically to their baptism. You believe in “once baptized/always baptized” and that a character or mark is left that can never be removed. What verses do you use to support that? I can think of some, but they are the same ones that I would use to illuistrate the concept that my salvation is something that leaves a character that can never be removed.

Baptism also removes all the personal sins that we have on our souls at this same time and so we are justified (made worthy to enter eternal life) through Baptism and if we die at this time we will immediately go to heaven.(Acts 13:38-40, Romans 3:22-26). Baptism gives us “hope of eternal life” if we do not die immediately after Baptism. (Titus 3:7)

So with this in mind, if we sin mortal sins after our Baptisms, we lose our justification but if we repent, we can be justified again. Both redemption and justification sanctify us (make us holy temples of the Holy Spirit). We cannot lose our redemption but we can lose our justification (right to enter eternal life). We need to be in possession of both redemption and justification at our deaths in order to enter into eternal life.

I find it interesting that you used Titus 3:7 when you talked about :hope of eternal life" because that verse also talks about justification, but it talks about justification in the past tense. The whole passage, starting with Titus 3:5 and going through verse 8 is
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.I understand that you would take the washing of regeneration to be Baptism, but to me that would contradict the first part of verse 5 where it states that a work of righteousness does NOT save us. I believe that God can wash us of our sins and renew us as a completely spiritual act of God without us having to do a physical work to get it. But let’s assume for a moment that it IS baptism. That still leaves the concept of justification is verse 7 as something that was past tense for them. Then verse 8 talks about good works being profitable for man. I belive a person should do good works, but since verse 5 says that we are NOT saved by the works of righteousness, then I have to believe that the “profit” received is something other than eternal life. There are various crowns that believers will receive after we get to heaven that are distinct from our actual salvation.

1 Peter 1:17 “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Revelation 3:11 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.”

We are judged by our works on Judgment Day as proof of our genuine faith. (1 Peter 1:7)

Well, thank you for listing out some of thse crowns for me. I do believe God judges our works as believers, but not to see whether those works get us into heaven, but whether we will get the crowns that the Bible talks about. There is a difference.

I do appreciate your explanation of the distinction that Catholics place between redemption and justification. I’ve been asking a similar question for the past few days, and I think some others have tried to answer it, but they didn’t deal directly with what I was looking for in the way that you did. You guys seem to express the concept of “justification” in the same way that I would express the concept of “spiritual maturity.” We need to do works for God to become mature, or “perfected” as the Bible sometimes puts it, but I think you have to have a relationship with God first to be able to mature in that relationship.

 

[Bookworm88]

To tie my previous post in with the actual topic of this thread, I think it is important to understand how Catholics and non-Catholics use their terminology. As a non-Catholic, I can certainly see the point that “covered by the blood” is not all that accurate of a picture of what Christ has done in regards to my sins. In the Old Testament system, a priest had to cover the nation’s sins with a Passover lamb once a year, but the sins were not taken away, only covered. They had to perform the same sacrifice the next year to cover the sins again. When Christ came, he was the ultimate sacrifice which TOOK AWAY the sins of the world. Christ’s sacrifice was for all sins, even for those which had not been commited yet. So when I accept that sacrifice as the basis for my salvation, I know that ALL my sins are taken care of, even the ones I haven’t commited yet. Your Catholic position seems to be more like the Old Terstament “have a priest cover each sin as it happens” system than what mine does.

 

[Bookworm88]

Hebrews 6:4-6 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”

The writer of Hebrews is warning us using hyperbole (exaggeration) to explain about the seriousness of sin and its consequences. By stating that “it is impossible to be renewed again to repentance” after sinning a mortal sin, he is actually showing us the seriousness of losing our justification through mortal sin. Another example of hyperbole is Matthew 5:29. (God really does not want us to literally pluck our eye out. He wants us to be aware of the consequence of sin: eternal damnation, and to make the changes necessary in our lives in order to prevent our damnation.)

To me, Hebrews 6:4 is talking more about the seriousness of thinking that you could actually fall away. I believe the author is being completely serious when he says that it is impossible to be renewed to repentance if one has “fallen away.” If one can be unified with the Holy Spirit and then somehow fall from that, there would have to be another sacrifice of Christ to make them right again. Since we know that people CAN be renewed to God after sinning without Christ dying again, then we can also know that their sin has not caused them to “fall away” from their salvation.

 

[SHW]

Why are these {venial sins} less serious? Yelling at your kids cause you are tired is breaking one of the two main commandments Jesus gave… loving others as yourself. White lies are against the commandment to not lie (not to mention the charge of vanity in wanting to look good to friends!). these are basic breakage of Gods law so I would say they are a serious matter. Its not like most people do not know these things are wrong, and you aren’t being coerced into doing them… so how are they not mortal sins? To me, this sounds like a human designation of seriousness rather than Gods. The wages of sin is death. not the wages of the sins you think are particularly bad is death…

I agree that all sin is serious in that all sin is is abhorrent to God, and that we must make every effort to not sin by asking God to help us. However, some sins are more serious than others. We reap what we sow. We must avoid the near occasions of sin (those things which could lead us to sin).

1 Corinthians 15:33 "Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”

Galatians 6:7 “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.”

If you knew that when you yelled at your kids, that you would be punished the exact same as if you actually murdered them, would you then be more attuned to your actions at all times? Most venial sins are sins committed without premeditation. We do not think before we act because the consequences are not immediate. Christians must learn to think before they act if they want to grow in holiness.

1 Peter 1:13-16 "Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

God does indeed judge us but we are given minds in order to use reason and logic. So, do you think that committing adultery is more serious than telling someone you like their outfit when you really don’t?

Purgatory burns away venial sins if we have not repented of them:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 “Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”

Persons with venial sins on their souls will have to go through a cleansing fire in order to be purified so that they can enter eternal life. Nothing impure can enter heaven.

1 John 3:3 “And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”

Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Very interesting. So there IS a “once saved/always saved” type position that Catholics have in regards specifically to their baptism. You believe in “once baptized/always baptized” and that a character or mark is left that can never be removed. What verses do you use to support that? I can think of some, but they are the same ones that I would use to illuistrate the concept that my salvation is something that leaves a character that can never be removed.

Redemption through Baptism is the removal of Original Sin from our souls. Original Sin can only be removed once. We are born again (spiritual regeneration) through Baptism. (Titus 3:5, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Ephesians 5:26) Christ’s sacrifice also gives us our initial justification because His sacrifice forgives all of our sins (washes them away) through Baptism, both Original and personal. Baptism sanctifies us (makes us holy). Both Baptism and Confirmation leave a mark on our souls which cannot be removed. (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, Corinthians 1:21-22) However, our final redemption/salvation/justification occurs after our deaths.

It would have been nice if the Scripture writers had used one word which means redemption from original sin only; and another word for final salvation only; and another word for justification only, which you can gain and lose until death. But unfortunately, they are used interchangeably, which makes it extremely difficult to follow.

I find it interesting that you used Titus 3:7 when you talked about :hope of eternal life" because that verse also talks about justification, but it talks about justification in the past tense. The whole passage, starting with Titus 3:5 and going through verse 8 is
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done,** but according to His mercy He saved us**

Yes, it is past tense. We were justified/saved/redeemed.

1 Cor. 15:2 “Through it (the gospel) you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.”

This is present tense. We are being saved right now if we hold fast to the gospel.

1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”

Romans 5:9 “How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath.”

This is future tense. If we continue to do these things we will also be saved in the future. **Salvation is a life-long process; not a one-time event. **

We must remain in (abide in) Christ until we die in order to receive the promise of eternal life which is given only to those who love Him. (Matthew 10:22, Matthew 13:21, Matthew 24:13, 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10, 2 Timothy 2:12)

I understand that you would take the washing of regeneration to be Baptism, but to me that would contradict the first part of verse 5 where it states that a work of righteousness does NOT save us. I believe that God can wash us of our sins and renew us as a completely spiritual act of God without us having to do a physical work to get it. But let’s assume for a moment that it IS baptism. That still leaves the concept of justification is verse 7 as something that was past tense for them. Then verse 8 talks about good works being profitable for man. I belive a person should do good works, but since verse 5 says that we are NOT saved by the works of righteousness, then I have to believe that the “profit” received is something other than eternal life. There are various crowns that believers will receive after we get to heaven that are distinct from our actual salvation.

Our initial redemption and salvation and justification is given to us as a free gift of grace. However, Jesus commanded that we be baptized in order to become His disciples. (I am not saying that God does not make exceptions.)

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” (Matthew 28:18-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 8:12, Acts 8:13, Acts 18:8, Acts 2:38, Acts 2:4)

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation;** for when he has been approved**, he will receive the crown of [eternal] life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of [eternal] life.”

One of the crowns is the crown of eternal life; the most important one, I think.

I do appreciate your explanation of the distinction that Catholics place between redemption and justification. I’ve been asking a similar question for the past few days, and I think some others have tried to answer it, but they didn’t deal directly with what I was looking for in the way that you did. You guys seem to express the concept of “justification” in the same way that I would express the concept of “spiritual maturity.” We need to do works for God to become mature, or “perfected” as the Bible sometimes puts it, but I think you have to have a relationship with God first to be able to mature in that relationship.

We are judged by our works on Judgment Day as proof of genuine faith or as proof of dead faith which does not save us. (Matthew 25:31-46)

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

To tie my previous post in with the actual topic of this thread, I think it is important to understand how Catholics and non-Catholics use their terminology. As a non-Catholic, I can certainly see the point that “covered by the blood” is not all that accurate of a picture of what Christ has done in regards to my sins. In the Old Testament system, a priest had to cover the nation’s sins with a Passover lamb once a year, but the sins were not taken away, only covered. They had to perform the same sacrifice the next year to cover the sins again. When Christ came, he was the ultimate sacrifice which TOOK AWAY the sins of the world. Christ’s sacrifice was for all sins, even for those which had not been commited yet. So when I accept that sacrifice as the basis for my salvation, I know that ALL my sins are taken care of, even the ones I haven’t commited yet. Your Catholic position seems to be more like the Old Terstament “have a priest cover each sin as it happens” system than what mine does.

Hello,

John 1:29 “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”

Present tense. He continually takes away our sins when we confess and repent.

1 John 2:1-3 "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Many persons believe that when Jesus said, “It is finished” that it meant that He had covered for (forgiven) everyone’s sins forever, no matter what they do after they they are first saved.

This is not what it means.

Hebrews 8:13 “When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete”

Luke 24:43-45 "Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.”

When Jesus is dying His Sacrificial death on the cross, He states in John 19:30 “It is finished.” This means that Jesus has now fulfilled all of the prophecies which were written about Him in the Old Testament Scriptures about His birth, life, suffering, and death on the cross and the Old Covenant is now made obsolete by His death and it is replaced by Jesus’ New Covenant. The Old Covenant is now fulfilled. It is finished.

Jesus died “once and for all” for our sins. At Catholic Masses, Jesus’ Sacrifice is re-presented to the Father. It is not a new Sacrifice and It is not a different Sacrifice. It is the same Sacrifice of the Last Supper and it is this same body and blood of His one and only original Sacrifice (under the appearances of bread and wine) that is presented again to His Father in heaven for the forgiveness of sins just as it was at the Last Supper. “Do this in remembrance of me.” Luke 22:19

Jesus is not actually sacrificed again in the flesh at Mass in the same way that He was sacrificed at Calvary because He died “once and for all” for our sins and cannot die again. Jesus made His Body and Blood truly present at the Last Supper under the appearances of bread and wine via a miracle and it is in this same way that this same miracle is perpetuated in the consecrations of the gifts of bread and wine in all Catholic Masses, because Jesus Christ as High Priest instituted the sacrament of Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper.

Jesus is the Paschal Lamb Sacrifice of the New Covenant. He replaces the animal paschal lamb of the Old Covenant with His own Flesh and Blood and this is why we are commanded to eat His flesh.

The Body and Blood of Christ are truly present (in the Eucharist) in Catholic Churches.

John 6:49-51 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

John 6:53-57 “Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.”

Pax,
SHW