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ringil
Guest
I guess. It shows a real lack of faith in the True Church I believe.Some times all it takes is a straw to break the camel’s back.
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sedonaman
Guest
Also time to stop calling Mass “liturgy”. Ever hear of “the holy sacrifice of the liturgy”?
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Khalid
Guest
I wonder if calling it liturgy (which is what it is, the Mass is a kind of liturgy) is out of ecumenical concerns with the Orthodox (who have the Divine Liturgies of Sts Chrysostom, James, Basil, etc.)? All Masses are liturgies, but not all liturgies are Masses.
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sedonaman
Guest
Thanks for the info. I guess my point is that the Catholic lay all know what “mass” is. Even many non-Catholics know what mass is. How many know what “liturgy” is? I had my first catechism class in 1949, and you just told me some things I never knew. In those days it was a sin to miss “mass”, not “liturgy”. Vatican II changed the mass from Latin to the vernacular to promote understanding, and now vernacular terminology is going esoteric.
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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
was gonna post something, never mind…:coffeeread:
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scottirey
Guest
Really hate to be the black fly in the chardonnay but I really prefer the practice of holding hands during the Our Father. It strongly symbolizes our unity in faith and worship. But I understand if some do not feel the same.
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zz912
Guest
He specifically asks the laity to hold their hands out like his? If he is doing this, you should ask him privately to please stop, and explain that the laity are not to do so. If he continues, take it to the bishop.
It is one thing to ignore or not correct abuses of the laity. It is another thing entirely to actively promote it.
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beckers
Guest
I actually do put my hands in the prayer position and bow my head for at least the first part of the “our father”. It keeps people from trying to grab my hands. Of course I only do this when I am visiting a parish since at my home parish this is a big no no.
We really should throw a few former high Anglicans in each parish. They will whip people into shape.
I learned really fast about waiting for the priest to sit down before the congregation does and singing all verses of a song and don’t you dare try to leave early from mass. Peer pressure works wonders in teaching people how to participate in mass especially for those of us who never grew up with the ‘bells and smells’ high mass.
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Jack_Bauer
Guest
It reminds me of the “Coke” Commercial and instead of reciting the Pader Nostre I just want to sing, “I’d like to teach the world to sing, in perfect harmony, I’d like to buy the world a Coke and keep it company, It’s the real thing. Coke is. That’s the way it should be, Coca Cola.”… la la lalala.
I don’t even look at neighbors and keep my dirty stinking hands to myself so I don’t spread my disease to them for their own good. I only hold my children’s hands and with my wife if the kids are holding hers. We keep it in the family. As far as giving the sign of peace goes, I haven’t made any enemies and don’t see the need to turn to the people next to me other than my wife to offer peace. She’s the only one I might bicker with. The rest of it is just an excuse for people to spend more time spreading illnesses. Ba humbug… don’t like it. not at all… reduce the population… OOPS, wrong message.
The local Anglican convert parish doesn’t says the mass in such a way that trying to do any of these is very awkward. I like. Maybe we should all convert to Anglican.
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sedonaman
Guest
Not only that, but how many people can relate to that? How many people are into symbology, anyway? How many people can guess correctly what something is supposed to symbolize? I suspect the answer is very few, for who can climb into the mind of the person who came up with the idea?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
And if the Bishop does the same, who do you go to?
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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
Your reason is exactly why we SHOULD NOT do it. Huh? You say, please let me explain my two cents.
When each person consumes the Eucharist is when we are truley united, Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth. We are at that time one, for we all share in the one bread, we drink the one cup. For those precious moments we are all truely one. Sharing in the body, blood soul and divinity of our Lord. NOTHING will ever bring us closer. Really, truely, actually closer, NOT symbolizing our closeness
When people ADD something to the Mass to “Symbolize” something, ( poster after you said something to the effect of “Yea how many people get into symbolizm anyway”)
it may begin to detract from what is REALLY happening.
The reason I belive this to be true is that I’m a former fundamentalist/evangelical. Everyhing goes in some churches, but the further you get from the “Real” and start making things up as you go, even though it may seem harmless (holding hands, extending your hands like a priest does, women Not wearing a veil, (couldn’t help it
) you eventually will end up with a church so far from the truth, just about any practice or doctrine is acceptable as longs as enough people buy into it.Just a thought. Sorry if I began to ramble.
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rstegeman
Guest
Excellent post!Your reason is exactly why we SHOULD NOT do it. Huh? You say, please let me explain my two cents.
When each person consumes the Eucharist is when we are truley united, Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth. We are at that time one, for we all share in the one bread, we drink the one cup. For those precious moments we are all truely one. Sharing in the body, blood soul and divinity of our Lord. NOTHING will ever bring us closer. Really, truely, actually closer, NOT symbolizing our closeness
When people ADD something to the Mass to “Symbolize” something, ( poster after you said something to the effect of “Yea how many people get into symbolizm anyway”)
it may begin to detract from what is REALLY happening.
The reason I belive this to be true is that I’m a former fundamentalist/evangelical. Everyhing goes in some churches, but the further you get from the “Real” and start making things up as you go, even though it may seem harmless (holding hands, extending your hands like a priest does, women Not wearing a veil, (couldn’t help it
Just a thought. Sorry if I began to ramble.
What this all really boils down to is faith, trust and obedience. We must have faith that our Lord is guiding our Bishops, trust in the Bishops to follow the Lord’s guidance and our obedience to the Bishop (and ultimately God). When we (the laity) introduce things into the rites of the Church or ignore the requests of our religious leaders, we take things into our own hands. The Old Testament is riddled with stories about folks taking things into their own hands and how God feels about it.
I don’t mean for the above to sound anger-filled. It was meant respectfully.
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scottirey
Guest
Father of Twelve, thank you for your well thought out reply.
I agree with you 100% regarding the Eucharist. It is at those few moments that we are all truly united with our Lord. It is unfortunate that so many do not understand what is happening in the Eucharist. How many people after receiving the Eucharist are even aware that we are all united in Christ at that point in time?
But should we not always strive for unity and love with our brothers and sisters in Christ? I am of the opinion that keeping it in our thoughts and hearts is not sufficient. We need an outward display. Holding hands (with others who are comfortable with the practice) draws us closer together. We are physically united when we pray while holding each others hands. I think that holding hands as a prelude to receiving the Eucharist makes it easier to make the jump into understanding our unity in Christ. Again this is all my opinion.
As for adding or changing practices and customs it happens all the time throughout the history of the Church. Indeed it varies greatly from country to country in the Church today.
On a different note we share some similar history. I am a reformed Pentecostal/Evangilical
I agree with you 100% regarding the Eucharist. It is at those few moments that we are all truly united with our Lord. It is unfortunate that so many do not understand what is happening in the Eucharist. How many people after receiving the Eucharist are even aware that we are all united in Christ at that point in time?
But should we not always strive for unity and love with our brothers and sisters in Christ? I am of the opinion that keeping it in our thoughts and hearts is not sufficient. We need an outward display. Holding hands (with others who are comfortable with the practice) draws us closer together. We are physically united when we pray while holding each others hands. I think that holding hands as a prelude to receiving the Eucharist makes it easier to make the jump into understanding our unity in Christ. Again this is all my opinion.
As for adding or changing practices and customs it happens all the time throughout the history of the Church. Indeed it varies greatly from country to country in the Church today.
On a different note we share some similar history. I am a reformed Pentecostal/Evangilical
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Khalid
Guest
Throw a few Orthodox in and they’ll teach the people to never sit at all, and remove the pews…! For all the failings of Orthodoxy, the unfailing orthodoxy of the Liturgy is to be admired. At the same time that orthodoxy causes a stagnation in the arts of philosophy and theology and a fear and hatred of any change, but it maintains proper reverence: I suppose that’s what was (partially) meant about “the Church breathing with both lungs”.We really should throw a few former high Anglicans in each parish. They will whip people into shape.
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Tigg
Guest
Altho this is a dated article, it might help explain where the confusion comes from:
In our parish, most extend their hands in the orans position because it is what the bishop emeritus asked be done. No further clarification has been given by our new bishop. I do NOT comply with this, since our move to this diocese a few years ago was the first time I had ever seen it done by the majority. In our previous diocese, we were told that the “orans” was reserved for the celebrant only who at that point is interceding for the entire church and that even the deacon should not do it.
It’s certainly a bone of contention between the more orthodox and the modernists and once again, illustrates just how “fractured” we have become as church.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
My wife and myself always hold hands during the Lord’s prayer, even when we’re at a parish that doesn’t do it.
However, at my tiny parish, the people have always held hands and when some one reaches their hand out to me, no way with I refuse.
I think it’s a nice gesture to be a community of friends rather than a group of strangers.
Anyway, we hold hands when Bishops have come to give Confirmation to our young people. None of them have ever rebuked us nor have they said anything about it.
Jim
However, at my tiny parish, the people have always held hands and when some one reaches their hand out to me, no way with I refuse.
I think it’s a nice gesture to be a community of friends rather than a group of strangers.
Anyway, we hold hands when Bishops have come to give Confirmation to our young people. None of them have ever rebuked us nor have they said anything about it.
Jim
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rlg94086
Guest
I don’t think it makes a difference. It is, as you describe, just a “gesture,” and doesn’t mean anything regarding community. People just automatically take the hand of whomoever is next to them.
I can remember a funny experience years ago, when the priest called all the fathers to the altar for Father’s Day. We all held hands, but it was typical guys - everyone just looked straight ahead. My biggest business competitor (we knew each other very well because it was a small business circle) was holding hands with me, and he didn’t even realize it.
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FatherOfTwelve
Guest
Sure, I get your point. Some folks would feel the way you do. But again, Parishes that hold hands are doing something that “The Church” says should not be done. Even if a local Bishop allows it, you are “Protesting” again… As Iron sharpens iron…well I’m sure you know the rest. God Bless brother.Father of Twelve, thank you for your well thought out reply.
I agree with you 100% regarding the Eucharist. It is at those few moments that we are all truly united with our Lord. It is unfortunate that so many do not understand what is happening in the Eucharist. How many people after receiving the Eucharist are even aware that we are all united in Christ at that point in time?
But should we not always strive for unity and love with our brothers and sisters in Christ? I am of the opinion that keeping it in our thoughts and hearts is not sufficient. We need an outward display. Holding hands (with others who are comfortable with the practice) draws us closer together. We are physically united when we pray while holding each others hands. I think that holding hands as a prelude to receiving the Eucharist makes it easier to make the jump into understanding our unity in Christ. Again this is all my opinion.
As for adding or changing practices and customs it happens all the time throughout the history of the Church. Indeed it varies greatly from country to country in the Church today.
On a different note we share some similar history. I am a reformed Pentecostal/Evangilical
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pnewton
Guest
The Catholic Church has not said it should not be done. A bishop has. All in his diocese should honor his decision. However, Cardinal Arinze has made it clear that the Catholic Church has no specified posture for the faithful at this time. I do think the accusation of “protesting” is either charitable or accurate. Do you really think holding hands is a style of protest?
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