Covington Bishop clarfies praying posture during mass

[FatherOfTwelve]

The Catholic Church has not said it should not be done. A bishop has. All in his diocese should honor his decision. However, Cardinal Arinze has made it clear that the Catholic Church has no specified posture for the faithful at this time. I do think the accusation of “protesting” is either charitable or accurate. Do you really think holding hands is a style of protest?

The “Church” has never told us to start holding hands. I would like to see the document or quote from Cardinal Arinze that you are referring to. Sure, I may not be aware of every statement a cardinal makes. But please show me any document that tells us to hold hands. You won’t find it. So, it was added by someone. Many believe it started in the late 60’s/70’s. So it’s just where we find ourselves. Something got added to the Mass (and many people like it, point taken) and the Church never approved this addition. You may have been going to a parish your whole life if you were born in 1970 that has been holding hands, that person does not know any different. It’s perfectly normal. At the parish that I came into from a protestant fundamentalist church, half the parish holds hands half do not. Ironically the early mass folks who I have found are more orthodox do not, the late Mass folks do. I could go into details but it does not go with this thread per se’.

So I did some research because I saw this inconsistancy in the parish, some saying it’s not allowed and then asking those that do it. They pointed to a priest 20 years ago that started the practise. They loved the priest, so they obeyed him and Wham. The divide in the parish began. These are facts.

So what do we do?

I can see the problem Cardinal Arinze is going to have, with twelve children of my own, we have these kinds of issues. Especially when they become teenagers (they think they know it all), Well DAD you never said I could’nt do “it” (whatever that is). Well I never said you could! And so the world turns…

As far as being either charitable or accurate. It is being charitable, As a brother in Christ I shared from my experience, as did he. If you read my response you should have saw I concede the point that some people find the practise of holding hands brings them closer to the person next to them. I am not debating those feelings.

What I’m saying is that if “ANYONE” adds something to or takes away from the Mass without approval from the Holy Father, you are being disobediant. You are protesting the authority of the Pope.

Christ, through the Pope has said "this is how it’s done. Someone said, I want to do it this way. I think I know better than The Holy Trinity, I 'm going to add this little tweak. I guess you can call it what you want, but coming from a “Protestant” background. I see what I see.

Lastly, I think my brother understood my post.
I’ll quote my final thoughts this time with it’s reference for those who may not know where it’s from.

Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. :knight2:

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

Father of Twelve, thank you for your well thought out reply.

I agree with you 100% regarding the Eucharist. It is at those few moments that we are all truly united with our Lord. It is unfortunate that so many do not understand what is happening in the Eucharist. How many people after receiving the Eucharist are even aware that we are all united in Christ at that point in time?

But should we not always strive for unity and love with our brothers and sisters in Christ? I am of the opinion that keeping it in our thoughts and hearts is not sufficient. We need an outward display. Holding hands (with others who are comfortable with the practice) draws us closer together. We are physically united when we pray while holding each others hands. I think that holding hands as a prelude to receiving the Eucharist makes it easier to make the jump into understanding our unity in Christ. Again this is all my opinion.

As for adding or changing practices and customs it happens all the time throughout the history of the Church. Indeed it varies greatly from country to country in the Church today.

On a different note we share some similar history. I am a reformed Pentecostal/Evangilical

SEEEEEE PENTECOSTAL!!! THATS WHY YOU LIKE HOLDING HANDS AND RAISING THEM HAHAHAHAHA! BTW, I was “Saved” in a pentacostal church! Love ya Brother! Glad we’re home!

 

[Joe_5859]

Also time to stop calling Mass “liturgy”. Ever hear of “the holy sacrifice of the liturgy”?

I think our Eastern brothers and sisters might have an issue with that. The word “Mass” is a distinctly Latin-Rite word.

 

[sedonaman]

I think our Eastern brothers and sisters might have an issue with that. The word “Mass” is a distinctly Latin-Rite word.

So? It comes from the Latin “to send” because we are sent forth to proclaim the Gospel to the world [at least that was what we were told before Vatican II]. Maybe the Eastern Rite’s mass has a different purpose.

 

[Joe_5859]

So? It comes from the Latin “to send” because we are sent forth to proclaim the Gospel to the world [at least that was what we were told before Vatican II]. Maybe the Eastern Rite’s mass has a different purpose.

I’m pretty sure the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern rites (they’s wouldn’t call it “Mass”) has the same purpose as the Latin rite.

In any case, I don’t see the need to ban a particular word. The Catechism gives us many, many names for the Eucharist and the celebration thereof (CCC 1328-1332). Each name tells us something about the Source and Summit of the Christian life but not everything. There’s no need to drop terms from our theological dictionaries.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

Latin Rite: Liturgy of the Eucharist

Eastern Rites: Divine Liturgy

Is the Eucharist not Divine?

The saying “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” in a sense actually may apply to the Eastern right as well. Theologies are different but may ultimately mean the same thing.

I recently made the statement “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and Divine Liturgy” I did not mean Holy Sacrifice of the Divine Liturgy. So if this is from my post I hope it’s cleared up.

 

[pnewton]

The “Church” has never told us to start holding hands.

I never said the Church did. I merely point out that the Church has not spoken on the topic. A local bishop only has authority on such things in his own diocese.

I would like to see the document or quote from Cardinal Arinze that you are referring to. Sure, I may not be aware of every statement a cardinal makes.

It was on an interview on EWTN a while back. I will try and find it.

What I’m saying is that if “ANYONE” adds something to or takes away from the Mass without approval from the Holy Father, you are being disobediant. You are protesting the authority of the Pope.

I prefer to be more generous with people that do these things. I think the charitable thing would be to not assume the worst in them, that there is a protest. As to the issue of adding to the Mass, why does it add to the Mass the posture one takes privately. Some here fold their hand in prayer, does that also add to the Mass because it is not listed as a lay posture. I personally bow my head, in flagrant disregard for the fact that the GIRM does not instruct me to bow my head during the Our Father. Is this too “adding to the Mass”? Is this a protest? Of course not. Rather this “Protestant” rhetoric is nothing but name-calling and has no place here.

I think we would all do well to pay more attention to our interior posture than the exterior posture of those around us. Of course, I am so open-minded I even believed people should be able to kneel for and after communion, even before it was mentioned by the Holy Father.

 

[sedonaman]

… I merely point out that the Church has not spoken on the topic. …

When it started, our parish priest said it was optional. I exercised my option, but my wife “She Who Must Be Obeyed”] was embarrassed, so I acquiesced to her wishes. Still can’t help feeling awkward holding hands with another man, though.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

I never said the Church did. I merely point out that the Church has not spoken on the topic. A local bishop only has authority on such things in his own diocese.
It was on an interview on EWTN a while back. I will try and find it.

I prefer to be more generous with people that do these things. I think the charitable thing would be to not assume the worst in them, that there is a protest. As to the issue of adding to the Mass, why does it add to the Mass the posture one takes privately. Some here fold their hand in prayer, does that also add to the Mass because it is not listed as a lay posture. I personally bow my head, in flagrant disregard for the fact that the GIRM does not instruct me to bow my head during the Our Father. Is this too “adding to the Mass”? Is this a protest? Of course not. Rather this “Protestant” rhetoric is nothing but name-calling and has no place here.

I think we would all do well to pay more attention to our interior posture than the exterior posture of those around us. Of course, I am so open-minded I even believed people should be able to kneel for and after communion, even before it was mentioned by the Holy Father.

We’re not talking about a private posture, Heck; I close my eyes when I bow my head.
I agree with you 100% about the private personal things that we are free to do. I guess I wasn’t clear. (I think it has more to do with responding in these forums with the written word only (Ha! Sola Scriptura).
When “anyone” (meaning a person in a role that can actually change the Mass in a Parish, that normally being a Deacon, Priest, Bishop or even in some parishes a Lay leader, (Lay Leader, then I know it’s not a Mass, but I hope you get the point)) changes the Mass, as this thread is about, Telling the people “corporately” (meaning all the assembled body to do something as a whole, NOT privately) to hold hands or assume the Oran’s position or whatever, he is exceeding his authority. They do not have the authority to change the Liturgy. So in my “Words” they (the Deacon, Priest, Bishop or Lay Leader) are protesting the authority of the Pope and the Church (not the guy in the pew, they are following the “Leader”). Ok, I could use other words, rebelling, usurping, or being just plain ignorant. I highly doubt the latter; I give every priest the benefit of the doubt. They know what they are doing.
Not name calling, just pointing out the obvious.

 

[pnewton]

We’re not talking about a private posture, Heck; I close my eyes when I bow my head… So in my “Words” they (the Deacon, Priest, Bishop or Lay Leader) are protesting the authority of the Pope and the Church (not the guy in the pew, they are following the “Leader”)…

Perhaps we are talking about two different things then. I was addressing the original post, the lay people extending their hands, as a private gesture. So you think the Bishop is out of order for stepping in and denying this gesture to the faithful, or do you think the bishop is only “adding to the Mass” when he says something sometimes? I have never read that such an action is rebellion or adding to the Mass. I do not think you will find where the Catholic Church has defined such instructions as adding to the Mass. Let us not forget the “G” part (general) in GIRM.

 

[pnewton]

FYI - I looked up my diocese and we still are able to hold hands or use orans. I found this in the diocesan letter on the flu season.

archgh.org/default/Documents/Home/Newsletters/Office%20of%20Worship/18-3.pdf

The priest is even allowed to mention the posture. So until I see something from the Church at large, I will not believe that fussing over the posture of the faithful during the Our Father is either rebellion or changing the Mass.

 

[Sherry_G]

FYI - I looked up my diocese and we still are able to hold hands or use orans. I found this in the diocesan letter on the flu season.

archgh.org/default/Documents/Home/Newsletters/Office%20of%20Worship/18-3.pdf

The priest is even allowed to mention the posture. So until I see something from the Church at large, I will not believe that fussing over the posture of the faithful during the Our Father is either rebellion or changing the Mass.

This business with the hands of the faithful only just started up ‘somehow’ about 25 or so years ago. before that, the priest was the only one using the orans position. So, somewhere along the line, ‘someone’ got a bright idea to add this, wouldn’t you agree? It was only done in protestant churches before that as far as I recall. It was said here by someone that teenagers use the defense of their actions "well, you never said I COULDN:T do it specifically… so I thought it was ok. I really think it has been addressed and the faithful have been instructed NOT to imitate the preist’s posture. however, those who “like” it, continue to do it anyway. I will do more research on this, but I am quite sure that this was “added” as I said and not by the pope!

 

[scottirey]

I found a very good article which perhaps has not yet been spotted by folks here.
ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur10.htm

 

[sedonaman]

Think about this one: The priest says, “Lift up your hearts.” The people respond by saying, “We have lifted them up to the Lord.” But they lift their hands instead.

 

[Tigg]

When it started, our parish priest said it was optional. I exercised my option, but my wife “She Who Must Be Obeyed”] was embarrassed, so I acquiesced to her wishes. Still can’t help feeling awkward holding hands with another man, though.

And I would contend that this discomfort is disruptive to the ends of the Mass mainly adoration and thanksgiving, and further that it causes a spiritual “breach” (for lack of a better word) of our prayerful participation.

 

[Lampo]

The Vatican discourages it. Why do you think that is?

“The Holy See has not ruled directly in this issue. In response to a query, however, the Holy See stated that holding hands ‘is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics’ . . . For this reason, no one can be required to hold hands during the Our Father” (161). The appendix notes that the practice of holding hands during the Our Father is “discouraged.”

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

FYI - I looked up my diocese and we still are able to hold hands or use orans. I found this in the diocesan letter on the flu season.

archgh.org/default/Documents/Home/Newsletters/Office%20of%20Worship/18-3.pdf

The priest is even allowed to mention the posture. So until I see something from the Church at large, I will not believe that fussing over the posture of the faithful during the Our Father is either rebellion or changing the Mass.

“I was addressing the original post, the lay people extending their hands, as a private gesture.”

The original post was not about a private gesture, the Bishop was telling his diocese to stop making this “Corporate” gesture of people Holding hands and extending their hands. If your holding the hand next to you…it’s not private. If the whole parish is extending their hands…it’s not private.

“As holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is a custom and not an official practice, the faithful could be invited to adopt the ancient prayer posture of the orans, during the Our Father.”

Whoever wrote this (Church Secretary) is trying to start something else “could be invited to…” could be? could be? invited by who??? what the Heck??? The inovation never stops:shrug: Maybe it was your Bishop who wrote this, I don’t know

Obviously I think we both care about our faith and we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.

I really can’t respond to this anymore, (I’m getting a headache) go ahead and have the last word. God Bless.

 

[pnewton]

Obviously I think we both care about our faith and we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.

That’s the way I have always thought about the issue. BTW- I usually do not hold hands and never use the orans. I revert to my own sense of prayer by bowing my head, hands folded and down to my side. I have never gotten used to the Catholic thing of keeping my eyes open during the Eucharistic Prayer and Our Father.

 

[scottirey]

In regards to the “orantes” posture being used by the laity during the Our Father, the following quote from the article I referenced should make the position of the Holy See quite clear: " In some countries, Italy, for example, the Holy See has granted the bishops’ request to allow anyone who wishes to adopt this posture during the Our Father. Usually about a third to one-half of the assembled faithful choose to do so. "

 

[rlg94086]

In regards to the “orantes” posture being used by the laity during the Our Father, the following quote from the article I referenced should make the position of the Holy See quite clear: " In some countries, Italy, for example, the Holy See has granted the bishops’ request to allow anyone who wishes to adopt this posture during the Our Father. Usually about a third to one-half of the assembled faithful choose to do so. "

That’s interesting. Did they grant it in the US? If not, it is illicit.