Covington Bishop clarfies praying posture during mass

[pnewton]

That’s interesting. Did they grant it in the US? If not, it is illicit.

That’s actually begging the question. It is not illicit if it is not deemed to be against the general instructions, in which it is not forbidden. So we end up with the original question.

 

[rlg94086]

That’s actually begging the question. It is not illicit if it is not deemed to be against the general instructions, in which it is not forbidden. So we end up with the original question.

So, why would the Holy See have to grant permission, if it is not forbidden?

 

[scottirey]

If it is granted when requested is it really illicit if it has not been requested? My opinion is no. Your mileage may vary.

Respectfully,

 

[rlg94086]

If it is granted when requested is it really illicit if it has not been requested? My opinion is no. Your mileage may vary.

Respectfully,

Your opinion is illogical. If it is licit, then why would an exception need to be asked for and granted? You don’t ask for exceptions for things that are already acceptable.

 

[pnewton]

Your opinion is illogical. If it is licit, then why would an exception need to be asked for and granted? You don’t ask for exceptions for things that are already acceptable.

I see his logic. A man may ask another man for his daughter’s hand in marriage, but permission is not needed to wed, nor is it illicit. I would say that permission would be to make it a required part of the instructions, as opposed to just something people do. As all most all of the bishops in America see no need to take the path of this one bishop, it seems differing opinions are indeed logical.

 

[rlg94086]

It is not illicit if it is not deemed to be against the general instructions, in which it is not forbidden. So we end up with the original question.

I see his logic. A man may ask another man for his daughter’s hand in marriage, but permission is not needed to wed, nor is it illicit. I would say that permission would be to make it a required part of the instructions, as opposed to just something people do. As all most all of the bishops in America see no need to take the path of this one bishop, it seems differing opinions are indeed logical.

Sure. So, if someone wanted to run around the periphery of the pews or jump up and down during the Our Father (Pentecostal style), it may be licit since its not explicitly prohibited and just something “people do.” There would be no reason to seek permission. If it feels good, do it. Completely logical.

 

[pnewton]

it may be licit since its not explicitly prohibited and just something “people do.” There would be no reason to seek permission. If it feels good, do it. Completely logical.

That, among many other actions, is not logical for other reasons(it is dangerous, distracting, loud, etc). The problem with absurd reductionism is that it tends to focus on one factor and ignores all others. Those you preach logic, should also adhere to it.

 

[rlg94086]

That, among many other actions, is not logical for other reasons(it is dangerous, distracting, loud, etc). The problem with absurd reductionism is that it tends to focus on one factor and ignores all others. Those you preach logic, should also adhere to it.

Holding hands is distracting… When you have an actual, cogent argument, feel free to present it.

 

[scottirey]

Holding hands is distracting… When you have an actual, cogent argument, feel free to present it.

ANYTHING can be distracting, some more things more than others. Holding hands is not distracting for me, nor does it seem to be distracting for most people in the numerous parishes I have visited.

You don’t like holding hands, that is fine, don’t do it. I have never seen anybody who likes the practice apply pressure on those who do not. For that matter I have never run across an argument by a person who prefers the practice admonishing those who don’t. But that is my experience. As I said before, your mileage may vary.

Respectfully,

Scott Irey

P.S. I have to disagree with you, my previous opinion actually is rather logical in my perhaps not so humble opinion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer, as in other things, can be distracting especially if you’re opposed to it. If you’re at Mass and the focus of your attention is looking for your dislikes, this in itself will be a distraction.

The reality is, the problem is yours, not what others are doing.

On the other hand, if you’re open to being at Mass with a community, and welcome everyone who reaches their hand out to you during the Lord’s Prayer, not only is there no distraction, but the awesome effect of a community praying to the Father in union, is spiritually edifying.

Jim

 

[Tigg]

Holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer, as in other things, can be distracting especially if you’re opposed to it. If you’re at Mass and the focus of your attention is looking for your dislikes, this in itself will be a distraction.

The reality is, the problem is yours, not what others are doing.

On the other hand, if you’re open to being at Mass with a community, and welcome everyone who reaches their hand out to you during the Lord’s Prayer, not only is there no distraction, but the awesome effect of a community praying to the Father in union, is spiritually edifying.

Jim

It isn’t spiritually edifying for all. Some people are quite uncomfortable with holding hands with a stranger; indeed there are psychological traumas associated with it recognized by the APA. Rape victims and those who have suffered sexual and even physical abuse can suffer great stress with any kind of physical contact, no matter how well-meaning.

But then, I guess that’s their problem and if others do something to distract me from prayer, the fault lies with me. What we aren’t taking into account is that altho no one will force me to hold their hand (and my family does not) it still makes for a breach of unity within the community and is disruptive.

 

[ringil]

This business with the hands of the faithful only just started up ‘somehow’ about 25 or so years ago. before that, the priest was the only one using the orans position. So, somewhere along the line, ‘someone’ got a bright idea to add this, wouldn’t you agree? It was only done in protestant churches before that as far as I recall. It was said here by someone that teenagers use the defense of their actions "well, you never said I COULDN:T do it specifically… so I thought it was ok. I really think it has been addressed and the faithful have been instructed NOT to imitate the preist’s posture. however, those who “like” it, continue to do it anyway. I will do more research on this, but I am quite sure that this was “added” as I said and not by the pope!

I’ve seen this done in Maronite Churches almost universally at some point in the Liturgy. I’ve only gone a few times so I’m sure of the part of the Liturgy though. Does anyone know about this? Maybe someone in the Latin Church got the idea from the East? I really don’t know.

 

[rlg94086]

Holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer, as in other things, can be distracting especially if you’re opposed to it. If you’re at Mass and the focus of your attention is looking for your dislikes, this in itself will be a distraction.

The reality is, the problem is yours, not what others are doing.

On the other hand, if you’re open to being at Mass with a community, and welcome everyone who reaches their hand out to you during the Lord’s Prayer, not only is there no distraction, but the awesome effect of a community praying to the Father in union, is spiritually edifying.

Jim

Indeed. So, someone running around the pews or jumping up and down shouldn’t distract you. If you are distracted, that’s your problem, not what others are doing.

Btw…if people are reaching their hands toward me, I haven’t noticed. I’m focused on the altar. It’s only when they grab my hand (it’s happened), that I truly get distracted. Should I be focused on the community instead?

 

[rlg94086]

You don’t like holding hands, that is fine, don’t do it. I have never seen anybody who likes the practice apply pressure on those who do not. For that matter I have never run across an argument by a person who prefers the practice admonishing those who don’t. But that is my experience. As I said before, your mileage may vary.

Indeed. My mileage has varied. I’ve received dirty looks and admonishment. I guess some people are distracted by someone praying with their hands held together.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Indeed. So, someone running around the pews or jumping up and down shouldn’t distract you. If you are distracted, that’s your problem, not what others are doing.

Btw…if people are reaching their hands toward me, I haven’t noticed. I’m focused on the altar. It’s only when they grab my hand (it’s happened), that I truly get distracted. Should I be focused on the community instead?

So equating holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer with some one jumping and running around during Mass?

That analogy isn’t even close.

Jim

 

[rlg94086]

So equating holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer with some one jumping and running around during Mass?

That analogy isn’t even close.

Jim

You’re the one who said distraction is your problem, not others. Are you saying that some things will distract you? I’m shocked.

The ‘anything goes if the GIRM doesn’t explicitly prohibit it’ attitude is a weak argument. When someone presents a better one, I’ll be happy to consider it. Until then, I’ll be faithful to the instructions of the Church and pray the Pater Noster reverently.

 

[Elixir]

It’s a step in the right direction that may even draw me back to the Church.

Seriously? On one hand this statement is comical that something so innocently superfluous (and easily ignored, as I’ve never held hands at Mass) would drive you from the Church.

On the other hand this shows a shocking lack of humility. You’re essentially saying that unless the Church does things the way you think best then you’re out. You’re taking your ball and going home.

Out of Charity I recommend reflecting on the purpose of Mass rather than focusing on things you don’t like.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

rlg9408

You’re the one who said distraction is your problem, not others.

Distracted because of holding hands during the Lord’s prayer.

Sorry you can’t see the defference between this and some one jumping and running around in the pews.

Are you saying that some things will distract you? I’m shocked.

Of course some things will distract me, things that are impropper behavior at Mass, or some one having a heart attack.

Holding hands while praying the Lord’s Prayer, how could that be distracting?

Jim

 

[pnewton]

Holding hands is distracting… When you have an actual, cogent argument, feel free to present it.

I did. You do not need to always insult others to disagree. Internal posture should always be more important than the external posture, lest we become like the cups Jesus spoke of, that we always are cleaning on the outside and leave the inside corrupt.

This is my problem with this topic. The moment we lose charity over this, we become a Pharisee.

 

[rlg94086]

Holding hands while praying the Lord’s Prayer, how could that be distracting?

Again, when someone tries to take your hand, as you are praying the Lord’s Prayer, that is distracting. I’m sorry you can’t see that.