Cradle Catholic questioning if I belong

[Busy_sleeper]

I appreciate the discussion and understand the different views regarding the Eucharist. What I don’t understand is how a righteous and just God would send good, God loving people to hell for an act done in the bedroom of two people who love and respect each other. Or the majority of the world that does not attend a Catholic mass every week.

I guess what confuses the people responding to my post the most is that I know and understand what and why the Catholic church believes these things be true regarding these issues. I just don’t think they are correct that God would reject so many of his children. There are many people who know what the church believes and choose to believe that God is more forgiving and understanding.

We have a greater understanding of the biological systems now than they did 2015 years ago. We know that the man is not the only “seed of life.” There wasn’t the knowledge of the egg then and that it takes 2 seeds. I just challenge that NFP is any different by wasting the woman’s seed of life. What makes one okay and not the other.

 

[pianistclare]

I appreciate the discussion and understand the different views regarding the Eucharist. What I don’t understand is how a righteous and just God would send good, God loving people to hell for an act done in the bedroom of two people who love and respect each other. Or the majority of the world that does not attend a Catholic mass every week.

I guess what confuses the people responding to my post the most is that I know and understand what and why the Catholic church believes these things be true regarding these issues. I just don’t think they are correct that God would reject so many of his children. There are many people who know what the church believes and choose to believe that God is more forgiving and understanding.

We have a greater understanding of the biological systems now than they did 2015 years ago. We know that the man is not the only “seed of life.” There wasn’t the knowledge of the egg then and that it takes 2 seeds. I just challenge that NFP is any different by wasting the woman’s seed of life. What makes one okay and not the other.

Because it’s artificial. If a couple decide to abstain because they need to space out their family, that’s a natural act. This notion that people simply cannot control their passions for the good of their families and need artificial means to obstruct life is what the Church doesn’t agree with. It takes far more love on a couple’s part to say "we’re not going to have sex tonight because I love you enough to not put you through an ill timed pregnancy.
What’s wasted is the intimacy. And I mean the intimacy of talking, mutual consideration, respect, and affection. Not sexual intimacy.
The Catholic Church is not one of popular opinion. The teachings are supported Biblically and through the Tradition of the Church through the centuries. Things don’t change because people take a vote. Yes, many people just don’t agree or don’t get it. It doesn’t mean the Church is wrong in her teaching. It means people have not studied and come to an understand of WHY. God desires a good marital embrace, encourages it. God does not wish for people to use latex or chemicals or other means to interfere with that marital embrace. The sin is in the ignoring of the natural law. God doesn’t send people to hell anyway.
People go through obstinacy. That’s’ what sent Satan (Lucifer) there. He just didn’t want to serve Jesus. He knew it was bad, but he made the choice. Freely. And he got what he wanted. God certainly didn’t choose that for him. He was the most beautiful and brilliant angel. He was created for something more. But he thought he knew better.

Be assured of our prayers as you sort through all of this. I’m wishing your RCIA program had covered this more ably for you. As I said before, maybe a reading of the Catechism on certain issues that are problematic for you as a couple, and some frank discussions with the priest. They hear these and similar things often. He will most certainly be able and most willing to meet with you to talk.

 

[WT1]

I appreciate the discussion and understand the different views regarding the Eucharist. What I don’t understand is how a righteous and just God would send good, God loving people to hell for an act done in the bedroom of two people who love and respect each other. Or the majority of the world that does not attend a Catholic mass every week.

I guess what confuses the people responding to my post the most is that I know and understand what and why the Catholic church believes these things be true regarding these issues. I just don’t think they are correct that God would reject so many of his children. There are many people who know what the church believes and choose to believe that God is more forgiving and understanding.

We have a greater understanding of the biological systems now than they did 2015 years ago. We know that the man is not the only “seed of life.” There wasn’t the knowledge of the egg then and that it takes 2 seeds. I just challenge that NFP is any different by wasting the woman’s seed of life. What makes one okay and not the other.

I just feel like you are trying to justify doing what you want instead of doing what you know is correct. You aren’t here by accident and I don’t think you thought a bd full of Catholics were going to say “it’s ok your heart is in the right place”. Subconsciously you’re fighting a decision you seem to have already made and that is a big indication you need to re-evaluate those decisions.

My heartfelt advice is to ask your priest to assist you in finding a spiritual advisor that can help you work through these issues. Please consider going through that process before you give up on the Church.

 

[St_Francis]

I appreciate the discussion and understand the different views regarding the Eucharist. What I don’t understand is how a righteous and just God would send good, God loving people to hell for an act done in the bedroom of two people who love and respect each other. Or the majority of the world that does not attend a Catholic mass every week.

I guess what confuses the people responding to my post the most is that I know and understand what and why the Catholic church believes these things be true regarding these issues. I just don’t think they are correct that God would reject so many of his children. There are many people who know what the church believes and choose to believe that God is more forgiving and understanding.

We have a greater understanding of the biological systems now than they did 2015 years ago. We know that the man is not the only “seed of life.” There wasn’t the knowledge of the egg then and that it takes 2 seeds. I just challenge that NFP is any different by wasting the woman’s seed of life. What makes one okay and not the other.

God judges each of us as individuals–the individual acts we commit may have a different “flavor” when more of our selves are considered: our knowledge, our motivation, our love for God, etc.

Now the main problem with abc or onanism (withdrawal) is *not *that “seed is wasted” or a baby not conceived.

The main problem is that the couple is partaking of the pleasure while acting to avoid the inconvenient part, which disconnects the act from its natural consequences. It’s like wanting to eat a lot of chocolate without gaining weight.

Keeping the act linked with the consequences means that there are boundaries around the act. Knowing that eating a pound of chocolate will put ten pounds on me () keeps me from eating a pound of chocolate, right?

When we try to get away from the consequences which are a part of the actions we take it is like taking things without paying for them or getting test answers without studying for them. This is bad for our minds and for our souls.

You have probably noticed that people who get away with stuff generally not only go on to try more serious stuff but also become sort of arrogant, with little tolerance for things not going their way. God does not want that to happen to us, so He issues strong warnings with the consequences spelled out.

 

[St_Francis]

Maybe your understanding of consubstantiation is lacking. It’s my understanding that in faiths such as Lutheran and Episcopalian that Christ’s body and blood are indeed believed to be truly present and exist together with the bread and wine.

Lutherans teach “sacramental union” which is, according to Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramental_union

I don’t think that “sacramental union” is very different from “consubstantiation”. But as I understand it, in transubstantiation, Catholics believe that the bread and the wine become the body and the blood whereas Lutherans believe that the the body and blood are under the bread and wine (as Luther’s Small Catechism says). In either case, both believe that there is a Real Presence rather than the bread and wine being something more symbolic as some Protestants believe. Lutherans for the most part eschew philosophical or theological explanations for how exactly the body and blood are present.

Thank you both for your explanations–I shall be more careful in the future and apologize for having written the wrong thing.

 

[Busy_sleeper]

Thank you for your suggestions, however as I had mentioned in my initial post, I was sent to this site by my priest. We had our initial discussion during the week before Easter. Understanding that this was not going to have some quick answers, he met with me again after Easter. Some of my questions were answered and I have a better understanding, but these two remain and he suggested that I come to this forum, do my own research, and to talk to my parents.

I am not trying to “get away” with anything. You can’t “get away” with anything in God’s eyes, he is all knowing. If I really though what I was doing was wrong I wouldn’t be having this conversation, but the Church does so that will doom me. It won’t do me any good to go to confession right now because I would not be able to make a full confession. I will not truly be sorry for these “mortal” sins, because I do not believe them to be sins at all. Where will my soul go if I die tonight?

In my heart I believe that worshiping God is a choice, where you decide to do that is between you and God. I’m well aware that I can and could be wrong on multiple areas of faith, but just telling me to believe something because it’s what the Catholic church believes is not helping me.

 

[pianistclare]

I don’t think anyone is saying that.
I think you need to re-read all the posts.
God bless you.

 

[St_Francis]

Thank you for your suggestions, however as I had mentioned in my initial post, I was sent to this site by my priest. We had our initial discussion during the week before Easter. Understanding that this was not going to have some quick answers, he met with me again after Easter. Some of my questions were answered and I have a better understanding, but these two remain and he suggested that I come to this forum, do my own research, and to talk to my parents.

I am not trying to “get away” with anything. You can’t “get away” with anything in God’s eyes, he is all knowing. If I really though what I was doing was wrong I wouldn’t be having this conversation, but the Church does so that will doom me. It won’t do me any good to go to confession right now because I would not be able to make a full confession. I will not truly be sorry for these “mortal” sins, because I do not believe them to be sins at all. Where will my soul go if I die tonight?

In my heart I believe that worshiping God is a choice, where you decide to do that is between you and God. I’m well aware that I can and could be wrong on multiple areas of faith, but just telling me to believe something because it’s what the Catholic church believes is not helping me.

I returned to the Church almost 20 years ago. I have done a lot of reading, studying, praying, listening… in those years and still feel like a beginner (esp on the Philosophy forum ). Many saints spent a lifetime of study on these issues.

What I am saying is that you may not get the answer you yourself need by asking on a message board with a 6k character limit. Things are inter-related with other things, and the foundational viewpoint is very different from that of the secular world in which we are so immersed.

It seems like the main issue is that of authority and love. Do you believe what God says? Do you believe that the Catholic Church teaches is what God in the person of Christ said? Do you care enough that Christ died for you on the Cross that it changes your life? Do you keep in touch with God each day through prayer? Etc.

Being Catholic is not just doing the stuff your parents taught you is good stuff to do. Being Catholic is *loving God. *Being grateful to Him for all that He has done for you. Looking at your relationship with your children and seeing the parallels with your relationship with God.

Do you expect thaf your children will simply obey you, or do you think that what you tell them to do is optional? Do you think you need to prove that each thing you tell them to do to their satisfaction, or do you expect them to realize that your greater age and knowledge means that there are somethings they won’t understand until they are older?

So the main thing is to relax and realize that this will be a peocess for you rather than a quick check of Wilipedia. Read and pray…

 

[Sy_Noe]

Not necessarily.

Refusing to be taught by some one you don’t trust as having the truth, would not be a sin.

Jim

Jim, forgive me but this greatly confuses me. In an earlier post I understood you to say if they understand why the Church believes something is grave but they reject it (IOW don’t believe it), then it is grave sin. I even suggested that perhaps they reject it because they don’t have faith in the Catholic Church’s teaching authority (don’t trust it) and that was your response.

Yet here you seem to me to say if they don’t trust the teacher, it is not sin.

 

[Busy_sleeper]

God judges each of us as individuals–the individual acts we commit may have a different “flavor” when more of our selves are considered: our knowledge, our motivation, our love for God, etc.

Now the main problem with abc or onanism (withdrawal) is *not *that “seed is wasted” or a baby not conceived.

The main problem is that the couple is partaking of the pleasure while acting to avoid the inconvenient part, which disconnects the act from its natural consequences. It’s like wanting to eat a lot of chocolate without gaining weight.

Keeping the act linked with the consequences means that there are boundaries around the act. Knowing that eating a pound of chocolate will put ten pounds on me () keeps me from eating a pound of chocolate, right?

When we try to get away from the consequences which are a part of the actions we take it is like taking things without paying for them or getting test answers without studying for them. This is bad for our minds and for our souls.

You have probably noticed that people who get away with stuff generally not only go on to try more serious stuff but also become sort of arrogant, with little tolerance for things not going their way. God does not want that to happen to us, so He issues strong warnings with the consequences spelled out.

I also do not agree with the cholate analogy. We are here to help eachother, especially spouses, to lighten the load/burdons of life. If we are responsible for the consequesnce of all of these “actions” in the bedroom then whey shouldn’t the response of a husband to his very pregnant wife when she askes him to rub her achy feet and ankles be “No, because you need to experience the natrual consequences of pregnancy.” Rediculous.

Which got me thinking of labor pains. God said that because of the sins of Eve, women must bare the pains of child birth. So why is it not a sin to get an epidural? Isn’t that easing the burdon of consequences from the woman in labor? Or am I uncovering another sin that I had previously been unaware of?

Taking things without paying for them, or getting test answers without studying have affect on other people. I agree with you, but the things I have issues with do not in anyway affect other people.

 

[Busy_sleeper]

I returned to the Church almost 20 years ago. I have done a lot of reading, studying, praying, listening… in those years and still feel like a beginner (esp on the Philosophy forum ). Many saints spent a lifetime of study on these issues.

What I am saying is that you may not get the answer you yourself need by asking on a message board with a 6k character limit. Things are inter-related with other things, and the foundational viewpoint is very different from that of the secular world in which we are so immersed.

It seems like the main issue is that of authority and love. Do you believe what God says? Do you believe that the Catholic Church teaches is what God in the person of Christ said? Do you care enough that Christ died for you on the Cross that it changes your life? Do you keep in touch with God each day through prayer? Etc.

Being Catholic is not just doing the stuff your parents taught you is good stuff to do. Being Catholic is *loving God. *Being grateful to Him for all that He has done for you. Looking at your relationship with your children and seeing the parallels with your relationship with God.

Do you expect thaf your children will simply obey you, or do you think that what you tell them to do is optional? Do you think you need to prove that each thing you tell them to do to their satisfaction, or do you expect them to realize that your greater age and knowledge means that there are somethings they won’t understand until they are older?

So the main thing is to relax and realize that this will be a peocess for you rather than a quick check of Wilipedia. Read and pray…

Yes I believe that children should obey their parents until they are older and able to understand. I am now that older child asking the Father Why? I want to understand. I am looking and praying for answers but am falling short. That is why I am here, to save myself and if there is no hope for me then to save my children, who with our genetic code will no doubt have the same conflicts and questions. Which I will not have answers for. If they get to heaven through a “loophole” that millions of people have taken, unknowing, at least they will be in heaven.

 

[St_Francis]

I also do not agree with the cholate analogy. We are here to help eachother, especially spouses, to lighten the load/burdons of life. If we are responsible for the consequesnce of all of these “actions” in the bedroom then whey shouldn’t the response of a husband to his very pregnant wife when she askes him to rub her achy feet and ankles be “No, because you need to experience the natrual consequences of pregnancy.” Rediculous.

Well, this is why I said it would be hard for you to understand because it takes a lot of learning. Things are connected to each other, something weighs in differently in one situation than in another, etc. The level of understanding that you want is much higher than where you are, so it will take time to get there.

Pregnancy is a good and also is not an action, so when the husband says she should experience the natural consequences of pregnancy, so as an analogy for the consequences of actions, it doesn’t really work.

Which got me thinking of labor pains. God said that because of the sins of Eve, women must bare the pains of child birth. So why is it not a sin to get an epidural? Isn’t that easing the burdon of consequences from the woman in labor? Or am I uncovering another sin that I had previously been unaware of?

This is a very interesting question which I have not seen before, altho I am sure others have.

Off the top of my head, I would say that, first, the pains of bearing children are not *all *eradicated by using an epidural, and I say this as someone who has gone both ways. As a result, (second) I would say that the relief of pain, which is in itself a good, is proportionately greater than the problem of evading a small part of Eve’s punishment.

Taking things without paying for them, or getting test answers without studying have affect on other people. I agree with you, but the things I have issues with do not in anyway affect other people.

This is where things become difficult for Catholics in a secular world: the thought surrounds us continually and seeps into our thinking. The idea that the only evil is that which affects other physically is a secular idea and not at all Catholic. It doesn’t take into account the spiritual aspect of our nature and it ignores what we owe to God.

Consider taking things without paying for them. If a child steals a candybar from a store belonging to a huge corporation, the “harm to others” is so diluted as to be imperceptible to those harmed. So, how much of a problem is that, really?

But there is *other *harm to the thief, no? And *that *is where the problem lies, and the problem which I am trying to point out.

 

[St_Francis]

Yes I believe that children should obey their parents until they are older and able to understand. I am now that older child asking the Father Why? I want to understand. I am looking and praying for answers but am falling short. That is why I am here, to save myself and if there is no hope for me then to save my children, who with our genetic code will no doubt have the same conflicts and questions. Which I will not have answers for. If they get to heaven through a “loophole” that millions of people have taken, unknowing, at least they will be in heaven.

I have a daughter in her 20s; there are still things she does not have the capacity to understand because she doesn’t have the background knowledge to understand. She does not understand issues involved with marriage because she has not been married. Same with raising children.

This is why so many young people have difficulty with their parents telling them that they don’t think that Dave the Drunk is a good person to marry, no matter how much fun they have together. Dating a drunk may be fun because of the spontaneity and easy spending, but being married is a whole different situation. The parents know this because they understand marriage; the daughter doesn’t because she has never been married.

I want to reassure you that the answers are there, you just have to be more patient with yourself. This is a situation which for you has been happening for less than a month, as I understand it, and what you want to know is complex and embedded in a lot of other aspects of the Faith.

Talk to your priest to see what he advises you to do about the sacraments. This is something he should be able to help you with fairly quickly. And keep learning more about the faith, and definitely keep on praying.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Yes I believe that children should obey their parents until they are older and able to understand. I am now that older child asking the Father Why? I want to understand. I am looking and praying for answers but am falling short. That is why I am here, to save myself and if there is no hope for me then to save my children, who with our genetic code will no doubt have the same conflicts and questions. Which I will not have answers for. If they get to heaven through a “loophole” that millions of people have taken, unknowing, at least they will be in heaven.

Good Afternoon Busy Sleeper. I always find it a curiously Catholic perspective to imagine that the attainment of heaven or hell has something to do with rules, loopholes to rules, rites, rituals and obervances. These are in fact ways to find religion, that’s for sure. But it’s probably not the way to find God or heaven. You seem to be tormenting yourself over a regulatory view of God and the world around you, and this has put you in exactly the place you are trying to avoid. Just some thoughts.

All the best
Gary

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim, forgive me but this greatly confuses me. In an earlier post I understood you to say if they understand why the Church believes something is grave but they reject it (IOW don’t believe it), then it is grave sin. I even suggested that perhaps they reject it because they don’t have faith in the Catholic Church’s teaching authority (don’t trust it) and that was your response.

Yet here you seem to me to say if they don’t trust the teacher, it is not sin.

If they don’t have the faith that the Catholic Church is teaching the truth, how can they understand the teaching ?

To know it’s true means to have full understanding and if what you know and understand it is true but reject it, you are in error.

But my statement was about a person who does bother to even look at what the Church teaches, because they don’t trust the Church.

There is no sin in that, for their distrust of the Church could be for various reasons which we know nothing about.

Jim

 

[josephback]

Imagine that Joe’s mother is in a nursing home and Joe visits her every Sunday… except from time to time He visits his mother’s friend in another nursing home instead.

Joe’s mother feels that even tho he has gone to a similar place and done a similar thing, she herself has not been visited, right?

So go to the Lutheran church for family reasons, but make sure you get to Mass *as well.

I don’t agree with you analogy. If Joe’s mother is GOD here then his mother’s friend in another nursing home is also GOD. Why can’t I visit God in both places?

So “woman up” and take a fast shower so you two can obey God

No offence, but taking a quick shower is not going to wash “him” out of me. It is unfortunately a slow process that “works itself out” anytime I stand up or move during the day.*

The Catholic Church is the mother, and Lutheranism through denial of the sacrament of Ordination lacks a valid Eucharist, outward similarities notwithstanding.

 

[Sy_Noe]

If they don’t have the faith that the Catholic Church is teaching the truth, how can they understand the teaching ?

To know it’s true means to have full understanding and if what you know and understand it is true but reject it, you are in error.

But my statement was about a person who does bother to even look at what the Church teaches, because they don’t trust the Church.

There is no sin in that, for their distrust of the Church could be for various reasons which we know nothing about.

Jim

I think it’s possible to not have faith in the teacher but still understand the teacher’s perspective. Reflecting on your above post though, perhaps we are actually on the same page. If you mean not only does one have to know what is taught and understand the reasons why. But a person must also believe it is true.

 

[OurLadysServant]

That is part of the problem. ** I do not believe attending the Lutheran church with him and his family occasionally, without attending mass is a grave mortal sin. I am still attending a very similar service and worshiping the same God. ** The Lutheran church does not think that either of these are sins, let alone mortal sins.

The two churches are INFINITELY different because, ONLY in the Roman Catholic Church is Jesus Christ the Son of God TRULLY present in the Eucharist housed in the Tabernacle, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. ONLY in the RC Church is Jesus Christ entire life and merits fron from Bethlehem to His Crucifixion on Calvary for the sins of the WHOLE world to allow mankind enter Heaven for Eternity, relived at the Consecration of the Bread and Wine.

In the Lutheran Church God is worshipped in spirit and word.

In the RC Church God is TRULLY present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and we worship Him personally literally before us.

That is why under the three conditions of mortal sin that its a mortal sin NOT to go to Mass on Sunday as a catholic.
Is it too much for God to ask us to keep His commandments and adore Him TRULLY present in the RC mass for our Sunday obligation?

Furthermore for this reason, under the three conditions of mortal sin, to receive communion in a christian church is a mortal sin, because the Christian Churches deny that Jesus is TRULY Present in the Eucharist. A fact that is biblical; “I am the living Bread come down from Heaven. My Body is real food and My Blood is real drink. Unless you eat and drink the Body and Blood of the Son of Man you will not have life in you.”
In John’s gospel the crowds left at this saying, guess what chapter, verse and line they leave Jesus commands to consume Him in the Eucharist?
6:6:6

 

[OurLadysServant]

if there is no hope for me then to save my children. If they get to heaven through a “loophole” that millions of people have taken, unknowing, at least they will be in heaven.

There is no loophole. The law of God is written on our hearts no matter what religion or aetheist belief. They are accountable for ANYTHING their consciences tell them is GRAVELY wrong and they freely and deliberately do.

You are not saving them by denying them being brought into the Complete Truth and Full Knowledge of the Roman Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself 2015 years ago.

You are putting yourself and them in possible trouble if you deny yourselves the Faith you KNOW is the TRUE Faith.
It says in the Bible that at the Last Judgement ; “The children will judge the parents.”
Eg: “You denied bringing me up in the True Faith. You denied me the knowledge of mortal sin so that I could have avoided it.” What if they miss Heaven because they do not have the Knowledge you could have given them?
The bible says, “My people are perishing from lack of Knowledge.”
Meaning those ignorant of catholicism are perishing because of in full knowledge of their consciences, freely and deliberately committing grave matter. If they had a good catholic upbringing, they might have held onto their spirituality as well as their consciences.

Jesus said in the Bible; “Let the little ones come to me.”
For a parent in full knowledge to deliberately and freely deny their children to be brought up in the True Faith is a mortal sin.

 

[OurLadysServant]

. What I don’t understand is how a righteous and just God would send good, God loving people to hell for an act done in the bedroom of two people who love and respect each other.

There are many people who know what the church believes and choose to believe that God is more forgiving and understanding.

What makes one okay and not the other.

Why is sodomy, masturbation, contraception, mastectomy, fornication, premarital intercourse, and abortion grave matter and mortal sin under the three conditions?

Because intercourse is not about carnality. About physical gratification only. It’s supposed to be completely open to creating children, and during this “unification” of the two spouses who MUST be married, because it is a SACRED act participating with God in the work of Creation.

All of this is biblical too. Sodom was destroyed by God because sodomy was practiced ther, and impure sins of carnality. It says in the bible, “Fornicators will NOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, they will be thrown out into the Outer Darkness where there will be weeping ans gnashing of teeth.” “Refrain from unchastity. Abstain from sexual immorality.” “Be holy for I am holy.” “The pure in heart will see God.”
If you do not believe its a sin, God does, and so does His Word.