J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
When there is no chance for conception, it makes no sense.
Are you saying that only when conception might take place, is the only time a married couple can have sexual intercourse ?
Jim
- Status
Are you saying that only when conception might take place, is the only time a married couple can have sexual intercourse ?
Jim
B
Busy_sleeper
Guest
Would you mind highlighting the parts that have been updated? Because if you are saying that the whole book was updated, I think this is a part that might have not change at all.
T
Thorolfr
Guest
He’s probably saying that the possibility of a miracle should never be discounted
S
St_Francis
Guest
You seem to have misread my post. I am saying that the absence of fertility does NOT reduce the act to mere carnality–we are Catholic and understand that our bodies and souls are unified in us. We are “bodyandsoul” creatures.I know I said that was probably my last post, but you are now starting to argue my point.
If the only reason that “pulling out” reduces the marital act to carnal is that it is not open to life. Then why is it still acceptable for a couple, one of which has been sterilized (not for medical reasons) and has received forgiveness, to continue to have intercourse and receive communion? Why not require a reversal of the procedure? Because if they were truly sorry for having had this done shouldn’t they be open to not making every act just carnal.
And if, for some medical reason, a woman has had a hysterectomy, is it acceptable for her husband to “pull out” for the sake of her comfort?
If the act is incomplete, it is a denial of the full self to the other or a refusal of the other’s full self. What is happening in your situation is a “good”–consideration for you–is being substituted for something far more important–the total giving and accepting of self.
So, did you read the posts I addressed to you?
O
OurLadysServant
Guest
I’ve answered this already.
NFP is permitted because procreation still slimly possible when used, because it doesn’t attempt to block procreation. Intercourse between married couple is permitted always. The rule is don’t deliberately block conception.
Current Catholic Teaching.
Promulgated under Blessed Pope John Paul II who is on a canonised path to sainthood. And The Catechism was updated last year for young adults,
O
OurLadysServant
Guest
Updated, as it is. No changes. Reiterated as it is.
See the official Vatican Website where it has the Catechism available for the faithful
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
And the Version printed for young adults KEPT all the teachings as is, only making it more accessible for youth to read through using more plain language.
Blessed Pope John Paul II put his Apostolic Authority on it for the faithful.
O
OurLadysServant
Guest
Just because Jesus will forgive a mortal sin in the confessional doesn’t mean it’s okay to do the sin, or to do the sin deliberately because you know you can confess.I know I said that was probably my last post, but you are now starting to argue my point.
If the only reason that “pulling out” reduces the marital act to carnal is that it is not open to life. ***Then why is it still acceptable for a couple, one of which has been sterilized (not for medical reasons) and has received forgiveness, to continue to have intercourse and receive communion? *** Why not require a reversal of the procedure? Because if they were truly sorry for having had this done shouldn’t they be open to not making every act just carnal.
And if, for some medical reason, a woman has had a hysterectomy, is it acceptable for her husband to “pull out” for the sake of her comfort?
Is it okay to steal if it would make your wife more comfortable?
Is it okay to kill an enemy of your wife to make her more comfortable?
Is it okay to masturbate because it breaks impure tension?
There is no way to approve of any mortal sin under the three conditions. One cannot do evil to do good.
“He who said do not kill also said do not commit adultery, He who has broken the least of the Commandments has broken all of them.”
Abortion kills a baby. But methods to stop procreation being possible stop all the babies who could have been born that God might have willed to be born.
Abortion kills children And those children go to Heaven. But attempts at blocking conception deliberately prevent those children from ever existing. From ever walking the earth, from ever existing so as to be able to eventually end up in Heaven.
Intercourse without allowing possibility of procreation is completely carnal, and against God’s natural law to unite a married couple in the hope of a miracle of a baby.
“Thou shalt not kill” also means do not do grevious bodily harm to a person, including yourself obviously, including to the reproductive organs especially (unless under medical reasons) because that renders the intercourse act completely carnal, and without openness to procreation (God’s intention under natural law for the purpose of intercourse, while being unitive for the two spouses). “Thou shalt not kill” would also obviously mean do not get an operation to block future pregnancies, killing the chance of future souls that God may have willed to be born.
A person who has had an operation not under medical grounds to become infertile for carnal reasons, can have the operation reversed, the Church welcomes that. The Church does not force them, because they may not be able to afford it for financial reasons (fact), and mainly because the operation (like any operation) can have serious damage or complications (fact).
And also because the infertility operation isn’t always 100% foolproof scientifically (fact), it’s not always a 110% chance of childbirth ever happening
Also:
Can we go around looking at sinners thinking, “Ooh, I’d like to commit that sin. He committed it and God forgave him. Why can’t I commit that sin and then get forgiveness too?”
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Busy_sleeper
Guest
That act does not block concepetion. Eveyone knows that it is still possible to become pregnant. I think that these teachings are based on old knowledge.
I’ve answered this already.
NFP is permitted because procreation still slimly possible when used, because it doesn’t attempt to block procreation. Intercourse between married couple is permitted always. The rule is don’t deliberately block conception.
Current Catholic Teaching.
Promulgated under Blessed Pope John Paul II who is on a canonised path to sainthood. And The Catechism was updated last year for young adults,
You did not address the question of the couple that had been sterilized.
B
Busy_sleeper
Guest
“Thou shalt not kill” also means do not do grevious bodily harm to a person, including yourself obviously, including to the reproductive organs especially (unless under medical reasons) because that renders the intercourse act completely carnal, and without openness to procreation (God’s intention under natural law for the purpose of intercourse, while being unitive for the two spouses). “Thou shalt not kill” would also obviously mean do not get an operation to block future pregnancies, killing the chance of future souls that God may have willed to be born.
When did we as humans ever been given or had the power to block God’s will?!?
I will clarify, you did not address receiving the Eucharist for those who have had sterilization.
When did we as humans ever been given or had the power to block God’s will?!?
I will clarify, you did not address receiving the Eucharist for those who have had sterilization.
O
OurLadysServant
Guest
Humans can block God’s Will. Look at Adam and Eve?
Look at Hitler, and all the world’s sinners, Yes, God’s will can be blocked or delayed. Is it God’s will that any child be murdered, euthanasia, abortion, Completely against God’s Will
God isn’t going to force anyone to do His will.
God even asked Mary for permission to be incarnate in her womb. He doesn’t force anyone to obey him
Those who receive sterilization not under medical reasons are instantly excommunicated themselves.
In that state they cannot receive holy communion.
If they confess they can receive communion again.
ANYONE who confesses a mortal sin trully is forgiven.
Doesn’t mean its okay to sin deliberately because you can ask for forgiveness. That’s a other sin, Presumption.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
Really? I’m sure you can cite where in canon law it says this.
O
OurLadysServant
Guest
Sure, condoms and contraception still aren’t 100% foolproof against childbirth, yet they are mortal sins by their very attempt to try completely block procreation, the main reason of intercourse by God, which can Never be deliberately blocked.
You think wrong.
The church does not change rules, it clarifies them more as they are.
These are current Church Teaching on the Vatican website. Pope John Paul II is Not two centuries ago. Neither is Cardinal Ratzinger who became Pope Benedict, he’s still alive. Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Authority was placed on it.
O
OurLadysServant
Guest
Yes SuspiceMeDomine;
Excommunication from abortion
male sterilization (vasectomy) Or Female sterilization under the three conditions is mortal sin.
S
SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
Abortion, yes:
Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
But you said:
Where is that stated in canon law?
S
St_Francis
Guest
Did you read my two posts addressed to you?I know I said that was probably my last post, but you are now starting to argue my point.
If the only reason that “pulling out” reduces the marital act to carnal is that it is not open to life. Then why is it still acceptable for a couple, one of which has been sterilized (not for medical reasons) and has received forgiveness, to continue to have intercourse and receive communion? Why not require a reversal of the procedure? Because if they were truly sorry for having had this done shouldn’t they be open to not making every act just carnal.
And if, for some medical reason, a woman has had a hysterectomy, is it acceptable for her husband to “pull out” for the sake of her comfort?
B
Busy_sleeper
Guest
I guess our definition of God’s will is different. I see all these actions as free will of humans. Yes, God would not want them to happen, and he wants us to be good to each other. He does not want evil to take hold of peoples hearts and encourage them to do evil things. But he does encourage and want us to learn from them. If God imposes his will on ANYTHING human would never be able to block it.
If God’s will could be block, why can we not stop miracles that are currently happening?
J
jmcrae
Guest
No.And if, for some medical reason, a woman has had a hysterectomy, is it acceptable for her husband to “pull out” for the sake of her comfort?
I think we are missing the elephant in the room here. Sex between married people is the free, full giving of the whole self to the other. While there are sacrifices involved, this kind of sacrifice is more than should be expected of anyone.
When he is required to pull out before he has a chance to complete the act, neither of you has fully received the other. Over the long term, this can cause serious damage to your ability to communicate with one another.
B
Busy_sleeper
Guest
I think we are in agreement. God let’s evil happen because of free will.
Or are you suggesting that it is God’s will that “the devil rule in our life” for a period of time so that we will eventually have a “stronger faith”? I do not agree with this suggestion.
Why then, would anyone die not having fully repented and praising God?
Or are you suggesting that it is God’s will that “the devil rule in our life” for a period of time so that we will eventually have a “stronger faith”? I do not agree with this suggestion.
Why then, would anyone die not having fully repented and praising God?
B
Busy_sleeper
Guest
Believe me, if my husband felt that he was somehow being forced or neglected, in anyway, by doing this, I would know, he would tell me. This “act” was suggested by him because he is thinking about me and my feelings. He doesn’t want me to regret having relations with him, ever. Neither do I. I think our ability to communicate is better for it and so is or relationship in the bedroom.
B
Busy_sleeper
Guest
I did and was choosing not to respond because of time, but since you are asking I will.
Forgive me if I don’t quote everything you said, but here are my responses to your comments.
I understand why the Catholic “binder” is bigger. I am only discussing 2 lines in that binder.
Regarding “inheriting a fortune,” I’m not complaining about it, I only think that as Christians we have all inherited the fortune and it is our responsibility to not squander it. It is a matter of Christian opinion whether or not attending a service that is not Catholic is squandering that fortune.
I am not complaining about going to church on Sunday. I am only saying that I believe that there is more than one way to fulfill that obligation. I should not matter if one is “better” than another.
I do not believe that attending the Lutheran church shows disrespect for God. The only thing I think it does is strengthen our relationship with my husbands family.
Your rather long posts were very well written, and had I been from another faith I may want to now join. However, we are discussing 2 issues I have and you were trying to convince me why it is so wonderful to be a Catholic. I already know.
In response to the people in the Amazon, you are suggesting that only those who are completely without knowledge that the Catholic church exists are the only ones God excuses from following all of the Catholic beliefs. That simply is not true.
This knowledge that technology has given to use has not been around for 2000 years. I’m suggesting that the current, alive, scholars that understand this new knowledge are not expanding on it to update things.
And I am not suggesting that things are not more easily dealt with now that we have more conveniences of live, just that in the context of what we are talking about is outdated.
Truth and Reality DO change. The world use to be flat and the the sun use to revolve around the Earth. We use technology to come closer to the actual truth.
- Status