Creation is the foundation of all God’s saving plans?

[Amac1]

When thinking about Creation I recently read the Catechism 280:
Creation is the foundation of “all God’s saving plans,” the “beginning of the history of salvation” that culminates in Christ. Conversely, the mystery of Christ casts conclusive light on the mystery of creation and reveals the end for which “in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”: from the beginning, God envisaged the glory of the new creation in Christ.

I want to ask - a) was the fall and the need for salvation always part of God’s plan when creating the universe? And b) If so, why?

There is probably a very obvious answer to this and to what we are to believe, so apologies for my stupidity. Just recently started thinking of these things.
Thank you.

 

[Genesis315]

There is some debate as to whether Christ would have become incarnate without the fall. In the view that He would have, all creation was ordered to Christ and His supernatural elevation of it whether man fell or not. But either way it’s somewhat of a moot point, since God had foreknowledge of the Fall and therefore ordered creation in such a way to culminate in Christ and His redeeming and saving mission.

 

[Amac1]

Thanks for your answer. Why did creation culminate in Christ? What is the reason for this? Why the need for salvation at all?

(I know you don’t know, but what are your thoughts?)

 

[po18guy]

“If”
The most worrisome, overused and debated word in all of mankind. It serves as a diversion from reality and sells a lot of insurance.

 

[Genesis315]

This is a big question, really. I think it is similar to why God created anything, but gives primacy to Christ and puts a supreme, uncontingent value on His incarnate person as intended from the beginning.

Here’s a priest/professed hermit’s website on this topic. The main proponent of this view is the Franciscan, Blessed John Duns Scotus.

https://www.absoluteprimacyofchrist.org/

 

[Hodos]

If you believe Colossians 1-2 and Ephesians 1, I would say that Christ was always the end goal. I can’t answer the why part, that is definitely beyond my paygrade. But what a blessing it is to know Christ and to be created by, through, and for Christ.

 

[Mmarco]

Why the need for salvation at all?

Because God only is the source of all true good and true love. We are unable to pursue the true good only with our own strengths; we need God, His grace, His teachings, His spiritual help. We need to be saved fom ourselves, our egoism and our sinful passions.
Only God can change us and make us better persons.

 

[Latin]

Post delated by author.

I’m sorry something went wrong.
I tried to put on one post and automatically appeared three posts.
I delated one all delated.
So I need help from the CAF.
Please live on just one post.
Thank you in advance.
God bless

 

[Latin]

I want to ask - a) was the fall and the need for salvation always part of God’s plan when creating the universe?

THE ANSWER IS YES

THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION By John Salza (Catholic theologian.)

Page 113; God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.

CCC 313; … Nothing can come but that that God wills.

There is nothing outside God’s creating, sustaining and governing will.

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St. Thomas explains THE CHAIN OF CAUSALITY

“It is to be observed that where there are several agents in order, the second always acts in virtue of the first: for the agent moves the second to act.

Because God is the cause of action in every agent, even man’s free will determination comes from God.

And thus all agents act in virtue of God Himself: and therefore He is the cause of action in every agent. ST, Pt I, Q 105, Art 5.”

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CCC 308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
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Because God works in us He causes all our actions, we all freely do what we want to do and we don’t even realize, we are as His builders, freely cooperating with His graces and working on to complete His creation.

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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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CCC 2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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God bless

 

[Latin]

We need to be saved from ourselves, our egoism and our sinful passions.

I agree with you @Mmarco, in general we are all egoists and we all have sinful passions.

The heart of the question is:
How we get our egoism and our sinful passions?

Of course we all need to be saved from them and only God can save us from our egoism and our sinful passions.

God bless

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

We need to be saved from ourselves, our egoism and our sinful passions.

I agree with you @Mmarco, in general we are all egoists and we all have sinful passions.

The heart of the question is:
How we get our egoism and our sinful passions?

God bless

They are a consequence of our nature of finite creatures; we do not own in ourselves the essence of life and goodness; we can only receive true love and true goodness as a gift from the only Being who owns life and goodness in Himself.
I think that your question coud be rephrased a follows: why God has not created me as a better person than I am?

My answer is : God has created people who are better than me, but those people are not me and God has chosen to create ALSO me.
However, this is not the end of the story; in fact, through God’s grace we can become a better person, we can become a saint.

 

[Latin]

Thanks you for your answer @Mmarco, I like it, nicely written answer, only flaw in it you answered my rephrased question and that question wasn’t my question any longer.
.
This is my question: How we get our egoism and our sinful passions?

I answer it according to the Scripture and Catholic Theology.
.
THERE IS NOTHING IN US WHAT GOD DID NOT INFUSE INTO US

1 Cor.4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

As we see above @Mmarco, as egoism and our sinful passions are in us/ part of us, this is only way possible that God at our creation willfully infused into us for our benefit.

An omniscient and all loving God does nothing without love and our benefit.

.
AS FOLLOWS, WE UNDERSTAND AND WE WILL SEE GOD’S GOOD REASON THAT AT OUR CREATION, HE IS WILLFULLY INFUSED INTO US EGOISM AND OUR SINFUL PASSIONS FOR OUR BENEFIT.

God designed, decreed, preordained from all eternity and directs every our evil act, for the reason to convert them into greater good.
.
Catholic Encyclopedia : Evil
“But we cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”
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If God would willed, He would create all of us like He created Mary, with the privilege of immunity from sin and in this world would be no one commit even a single act of sin.
.
CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin for our benefit.

.
THE REASON GOD CREATED THE DRAMAS OF EVIL AND SIN.

Life without suffering would produce spoiled brats, not joyful saints.

Our struggle and tribulation while journeying towards our ultimate perfection through the dramas of evil and sin is the cost which in-prints the virtue/ nobility into our souls – the cost of our road to nobility and perfection.

In this world man has to learn by experience and contrast, and to develop by the overcoming of obstacles (Lactantius, “De ira Dei”, xiii, xv in “P.L., VII. St. Augustine “De ordine”, I, vii, n. 18 in “P.L.”, XXXII, 986).
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As we see above, we are all sinners because God willed to create us to be sinners for good reason, for the benefit of the entire human race.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

Continue

 

[Latin]

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).

This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).

It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).

It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).

All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nation.

Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work.

God acts through secondary causes, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him ; efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Divine Providence

.
CCC 324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
.
CCC 313; St.Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: “Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best.” 182

There is nothing outside God’s creating, sustaining and governing will.
.
God bless

 

[Mmarco]

Thanks you for your answer @Mmarco, I like it, nicely written answer, only flaw in it you answered my rephrased question and that question wasn’t my question any longer.
.
This is my question: How we get our egoism and our sinful passions?

I answer it according to the Scripture and Catholic Theology.
.
THERE IS NOTHING IN US WHAT GOD DID NOT INFUSE INTO US

1 Cor.4:7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

As we see above @Mmarco, as egoism and our sinful passions are in us/ part of us, this is only way possible that God at our creation willfully infused into us for our benefit.

I disagree with you interpretation of 1 Cor 4:7. In fact Paul refers explicitly only to good qualities since he says “why do you boast …?” Egoism and sinful passions are not something we boast about.

 

[Amac1]

You have no idea how your reference to those two passages have helped me. Thank you

 

[Hodos]

You have no idea how your reference to those two passages have helped me. Thank you

Thank you. Glad to be of help.

 

[Latin]

@Mmarco, you disagree with my interpretation of 1 Cor. 4:7 because seems to me, you are disagree with Catholic theology teaching the same subject.

a. For who makes you different from anyone else? – Correct answer: The way God created us, makes us different from anyone else.

b. What do you have that you did not receive? – Correct answer: We have absolutely nothing what we did not receive from God.
.
Of course, egoism and sinful passions are not something we boast about, newer the less, the teachings of Catholic Theology as follows proven, at our creation God willfully infused into us egoism and sinful passions for our benefit.
.
If God would willed, He would create all of us like He created Mary, with the privilege of immunity from sin and in this world would be no one commit even a single act of sin.
.
CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin for our benefit.
.
For our benefit, with infinite wisdom and goodness, at our creation God willfully infused into us egoism and sinful passions.

Furthermore: His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).

It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).

It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).

All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, “Apol.”, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Continue

 

[Latin]

Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”

God is the sole ruler of the world. His will governs all things. He loves all men, desires the salvation of all, and His providence extends to all nation.

Again, from the fact that God has created the universe, it shows that He must also govern it; for just as the contrivances of man demand attention and guidance, so God, as a good workman, must care for His work.

God acts through secondary causes, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him ; efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);

That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Divine Providence

.
CCC 324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
.
CCC 313; St.Thomas More, shortly before his martyrdom, consoled his daughter: “Nothing can come but that that God wills. And I make me very sure that whatsoever that be, seem it never so bad in sight, it shall indeed be the best.” 182

There is nothing outside God’s creating, sustaining and governing will.
.
At our creation God willfully infused into us egoism and sinful passions for our benefit, which is; He converts every our act of sin into greater good.

Furthermore: As God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen in the universe, naturally follows; from all eternity, God designed, decreed, foreordained, tailor made for all of us and causes every our act trough-out all our life until we die.
.
With other words: God designed, decreed, preordained from all eternity and directs every act of the movie of our life from our birth until the day we die, includes our last act.
.
So, who is going to hell???
.
God bless

 

[Mmarco]

Of course, egoism and sinful passions are not something we boast about, newer the less, the teachings of Catholic Theology as follows proven, at our creation God willfully infused into us egoism and sinful passions for our benefit.

I have never found any official statement of the Church sayng that “God willfully infused into us egoism and sinful passions” This is only a wrong interpretaion of yours.

CCC 310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – God created the dramas of evil and sin for our benefit.

This is a typical example of manipulation of the teachings of the Church and you do this very often; in fact, your conclusion “God created the dramas of evil and sin” does not follow from the verses of the Cathechism you quoted. Evil and sin are not created entities, they are only a consequence of our free choices.
You quote a lot of verses out of their context and you do not understand their meaning.

 

[Latin]

Evil and sin are not created entities, they are only a consequence of our free choices.

Evil and sin exists in the world.

exist
[ɪɡˈzɪstɛɡˈzɪst]

synonyms:
be in existence …
.
If something exists, must be created and must have a creator.

Do you mean @Mmarco, our free choices are the causer/ creator of evil and sins in the world?

Thank you for your answer in advance.

God bless