Creation or Evolution

[Brian_Millar]

I keep running into threads where they clearly all end up with creation verses evolution. It always ends up in an ugly debate between both sides and much of the time, tends to become quite off topic.

I opted to create this thread to discuss the matter, we should do so in a cival manner, not putting down either side and make our points of view clear. This is also meant to broaden our horizons as to what we understand about each, perhaps we might even come to a final conclusion here, thus ending the debate forever. I feel we as christians, especially Catholics should never be divided over anything, afterall, that goes against the very nature of the word Catholic which means unity.

Athiests, agnostics, etc. should not be involved with this thread in my opinion, that would throw off the unity, but if you insist, be very clear about that matter from the get go, just so we have a better understanding and point of reference from the poster.

My hopes for this thread are to help get discussion on this matter to be civilized, informative and most of all, we show respect to each other…

 

[PhilVaz]

Two books:

Chance or Purpose? by Cardinal Schonborn (Ignatius, 2007)

Creation and Evolution by Pope Benedict XVI “student circle” (Ignatius, 2008)

The creation-evolution threads go on because we have Catholics denying the science, which requires many posts of correction by folks who know the science, or other folks pitting Catholic dogma against the science, which requires more posts of correction or explanation.

What you find in both books above: the science for evolution is strong but has limits. None of the theologians, philosophers, or churchmen in the above books contests the science, but the science doesn’t answer questions of meaning and purpose. The real debate is a philosophical one.

Phil P

 

[rusty20]

Not trying to put down the Pope or anything, but what authority does he have on science? Like what kind of education, degrees, etc?

From what I can tell, the average non-scientist (including myself) knows very little about the intricate details of evolutionary theory. Other scientific theories, such as gravity and motion, we can see clear evidence of in our daily lives. But evolutionary theory is something that is not blatantly seen around us, at least not to the untrained eye. So where does Pope Benedict get his intricate understanding of evolutionary theory? Is he taking scientists’ word for it? Has he studied it extensively?

I am of the belief, generally, that the elite group of scientists (broguht about by the scientific age) who create theories and have supposed evidence for those theories can have a pretty powerful position. For the average person takes what scientists say with total trust. How much faith do we put in science these days?

But more seriously, what makes Pope Benedict an authority on scientific theories of evolution?

 

[historyb]

God did when he called him to be Pope˙ We say God created in our creeds, God saw fit to put it in his Holy Word. What makes scientist think they know more than God. I’m not going to fight with people I was a Creationist before I came to Rome and no one can change my mind except God.

 

[Thing]

In a very simplistic way; everyone with an opinion, either way, jumps the gun.
Science just describes reality but at the moment she is far from having every fact, there are probably many gaps in knowledge and people insist on jumping to conclusions, - possibly because they see the prospects of more scientific evidence dwindling somewhat. Life is complicated.

 

[FightingFat]

The Church has always taught that faith and reason go together. Faith shouldn’t deny reason. Why can’t we have evolution and creation?

 

[rusty20]

God did when he called him to be Pope˙ We say God created in our creeds, God saw fit to put it in his Holy Word. What makes scientist think they know more than God. I’m not going to fight with people I was a Creationist before I came to Rome and no one can change my mind except God.

Ok. I’ll admit I haven’t read the book from Benedict. Does it simply state faith and science are compatible? Does it go into the intricate details? I understand that it can be/IS inspired by God, but I’m just wondering what kind of authority (outside of being Pope) he may have on science.

 

[JRKH]

Just my 2 cents,

**Creation ----- Evolution

God created evolution** - End of Story in so far as I need to know
Why do the specifics matter?

The devil (of dissention and division) is in the details.

Peace
James

 

[KestrelRose]

Ok. I’ll admit I haven’t read the book from Benedict. Does it simply state faith and science are compatible? Does it go into the intricate details? I understand that it can be/IS inspired by God, but I’m just wondering what kind of authority (outside of being Pope) he may have on science.

My advice is to read it. A person may disagree with him but no one (Christian, athiest, or otherwise) questions his intellectual credentials.

 

[rusty20]

My advice is to read it. A person may disagree with him but no one (Christian, athiest, or otherwise) questions his intellectual credentials.

I am not saying he doesn’t have intellectual credibility. I just would like to know what kind of education (whether by an educational establishment or by individual research) he has in evolutionary theory. And I mean intricate details rather than the overall general theory. Its like I have spoken the unutterable line by questioning the Pope’s words. I am simply asking for what kind of scientific education he has.

Is that so hard a question to be answered?

 

[KestrelRose]

This may give you a start in your research. I still think you ought to read his books. Read his footnotes.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/biography/documents/hf_ben-xvi_bio_20050419_short-biography_en.html

 

[KestrelRose]

What you are asking is reasonable but does require research. If you are interested in knowing exactly what the courses he took, where and when he took them, it will be up to you to search that out.

More important, read what he has written and decide for yourself if he is qualified to write.

 

[KestrelRose]

What you are asking is reasonable but does require research. If you are interested in knowing exactly what the courses he took, where and when he took them, it will be up to you to search that out.

More important, read what he has written and decide for yourself if he is qualified to write.

Considering his extensive education, I would assume that he has more than a cursory understanding of the Theory of Evolution.

Ooops I hit the wrong button. Oh Well.

 

[VociMike]

My view on this is simple. The True Faith (which as a Catholic I believe is Catholicism) cannot possibly be in contradiction with any other truth, in this case, with scientific truth. So to the extent that “Evolution” science reflects actual reality, it cannot possibly be in conflict with Catholicism. Note that not all Evolution science is correct science. Scientific facts and theories by their nature are much more typically wrong or incomplete than they are correct and complete. So there’s likely to be plenty of Evolution science that is wrong or incomplete, and of course the Catholic faith does not have to be in non-conflict with that science.

Unfortunately, many people have used the narrow claims of Evolution science to make much broader and unsupported (by Evolution science) claims. A similar thing happened with the Theory of Relativity, when people tried to claim that the theory meant all morality was also relative. One can reject that latter claim without thus rejecting the true science found in the Theory of Relativity. Likewise, one can reject the extraneous claims that have attached themselves to Evolution science without rejecting the true and correct science itself.

The Church is very clear about those truths in the Genesis account which we must believe, and those must-believe truths do not appear to conflict with the correct science one finds in “Evolution”. Now, as to why some people don’t object to being created out of dirt but do object to being created out of cute little ape critters, that I can’t explain.

 

[fhansen]

I feel we as christians, especially Catholics should never be divided over anything, afterall, that goes against the very nature of the word Catholic which means unity.
.

Catholics shouldn’t divide over matters of faith and morals but certainly can divide over a scientific theory where all the facts are not yet in.

 

[edwest2]

From the document “Human Persons Created in the Image of God,” part 69:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html

“In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science.”

“An unguided evolutionary process - one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence - simply cannot exist…”

The Church, here, is commenting on science as science, not philosophy. The Church does this relating to other scientific matters. One example is the human embryo. Any scientist can prove a human embryo is a person and based on this knowledge, all of us reading this know that, at one time, we were all embryos. When the Church opposes embryonic stem cell research on human embryos it is accused of offering a “philosophical” argument. That is false. Any scientist will tell you we were all embryos.

To summarize, the Church teaches that in the case of evolution, only divine intervention or providence could have directed it, otherwise it “simply cannot exist.” I hope that’s clear.

The high school biology textbook allows only random mutation and natural selection. Nothing else. I hope you understand what it must be like for Professor Richard Dawkins to appear on TV and when asked, “Didn’t God create man from the dust of the earth and breathe life into his nostrils?” His answer is “No.” Why does he answer no? The science tells him that is the correct answer.

That is why there is disagreement and debate.

There is also one more factor. It involves something called “politics” which is a word that simply means “power over other people.” In the United States, Christianity has been a big influence in politics and in everyday life. Recently, due to the creation of a false alarm over an exaggerated version of our Christian past, a small group of atheists have started a New Atheism. The Theory of Evolution is not just Biology or Geology but ALL of science or so they say. Any who oppose it are: (1) Irrational, (2) Unable to think clearly because anyone who believes in God, by their definition, automatically cannot think clearly, and (3) Willfully Ignorant - surely, anybody who studies the science can see that it is The Truth. The part they leave out is in no way, shape or form can Catholics believe that God was involved. Clearly, the science doesn’t support it.

Hope that was clear.

Ed

 

[reggieM]

The creation-evolution threads go on because we have Catholics denying the science, which requires many posts of correction by folks who know the science, or other folks pitting Catholic dogma against the science, which requires more posts of correction or explanation.

The creation-evolution threads go on because we have Catholics giving blind allegiance to Darwinism (theories of which are condemned by the Holy See).

 

[reggieM]

From the document “Human Persons Created in the Image of God,”:

vatican.va/roman_curia/co…rdship_en.html

In continuity with previous twentieth century papal teaching on evolution (especially Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Humani Generis ), the Holy Father’s message acknowledges that there are “several theories of evolution” that are “materialist, reductionist and spiritualist” and thus incompatible with the Catholic faith. It follows that the message of Pope John Paul II cannot be read as a blanket approbation of all theories of evolution, including **those of a neo-Darwinian provenance **which **explicitly deny to divine providence **any truly causal role in the development of life in the universe.

 

[elts1956]

Catholics shouldn’t divide over matters of faith and morals but certainly can divide over a scientific theory where all the facts are not yet in.

The problem is, we of so little evolutionary and biblical knowledge, always see both Religion and Science brought into the discussion. Creationists believe verbatum what the Bible says about God’s creating the Earth, sea and sky etc. The Earth and everything on, in the Universe suddenly came to “be”. I am sure God is chuckling regarding our attempts to explain His powers of Creation. Of course God could have snapped those fingers and Creation “was”. But we, as humans do not know, nor have we experienced, GOD’S SEVEN days. According to Science, our Earth certainly shows a progression in Geology, a theory about the evolving of humanity, other animals etc. What do we know, perhaps God is still Creating? We aren’t perfect remember.

 

[fhansen]

The problem is, we of so little evolutionary and biblical knowledge, always see both Religion and Science brought into the discussion. Creationists believe verbatum what the Bible says about God’s creating the Earth, sea and sky etc. The Earth and everything on, in the Universe suddenly came to “be”. I am sure God is chuckling regarding our attempts to explain His powers of Creation. Of course God could have snapped those fingers and Creation “was”. But we, as humans do not know, nor have we experienced, GOD’S SEVEN days. According to Science, our Earth certainly shows a progression in Geology, a theory about the evolving of humanity, other animals etc. What do we know, perhaps God is still Creating? We aren’t perfect remember.

What I’m saying is that if someone wants to view the debate as having theological import, it doesn’t.

Theories of evolution become a point of contention with Catholic theology only when they 1) for whatever reason aim to exclude the necessity of God for creation and 2) postulate that the human race as we know it now has arrived via polygenesis.

Creationism can’t be considered to be dogma, and therefore something worth dividing over, because the CC doesn’t recognize it as dogma. Likewise with theories of evolution. Therefore, if we’re to stay unified with each other by maintaining unity with Rome, it seems to me that the entire debate is at best an interesting but otherwise relatively mundane one that has no impact on our faith, will resolve itself eventually, and is meanwhile nothing worth dividing over. The truth is what it is.

In any case, God better not be done with me-a lot of people, including myself, would be pretty disappointed if He was!