Creation vs. Evolution poll II

[ArisSlatr]

God doesnt just let us not be in his club. He puinshes eternally for something finite. You cannot argue this point.

Again, that’s not just.

For you it comes down to this. If you pick atheism and you are wrong you will not enjoy heaven. If you pick Catholicism and you are wrong you have lived and excellent life in pursuit of God which is very fulfilling indeed.

Observe “Pascals wager” on this topic.

We know God as perfect - therefore he will judge perfectly. He cannot do otherwise. Like a father who punishes his child for a wrong, he likewise does the same. His preference for you is to spend eternity with him. You choose. If you want to, you know what you have to do.

A true god could do anything he wanted. He can only punish if he wants to. It is not nessesary to punish if no lesson is learned. What lesson is learned from an infinite punishment. None.

Punishment is done to teach a lesson, not to be sadistic.

 

[Chris_W]

Oolon - Thank you for the clarification. I suspected you were merely staing your belief, but I just wanted to sure you were not contending that the proper understanding of evolution requires a person to reject God (although you seem to think it does require rejection of the God of Christianity).

I still find your opinions about God enlightening. Where are your fellow evolutionists who claim to also be Christian? I really expected to see someone like PhilVaz step up to the plate and say something like “now that’s going too far, Oolon…for these reasons…”. So far that hasn’t happened. This confirms my suspicion that evolution and Christianity are *not * compatible.

And because I am conviced of the God of Christianity, therefore evolution cannot be true, even though scientific evidence may seem to support the notion that the theory is possible (unless someone will someday explain to me how the two can be reconciled…I am starting to give up hope about that happening).

I do not want to draw you into discussions you do not want to have, but when you state your beliefs (as I do as well) you open yourself up to the critique of those beliefs.

 

[buffalo]

ArisSlatr:

God doesnt just let us not be in his club. He puinshes eternally for something finite. You cannot argue this point.

Again, that’s not just.

Observe "Pascals wager" on this topic.

A true god could do anything he wanted. He can only punish if he wants to. It is not nessesary to punish if no lesson is learned. What lesson is learned from an infinite punishment. None.

Punishment is done to teach a lesson, not to be sadistic.

Try looking at it this way. God asks you to spend eternity with him, you refuse. Is God just by letting you excercise your free will? ( He could have made you a perfect robot that had no free will.)

And if he has given you the time of your lifespan to make that choice and you decide not to, is that just?

God can and did anything he wanted, and if he is all powerful maybe we should not try to offend Him.

(I hit the wrong key- sorry)

 

[ArisSlatr]

Try looking at it this way. God asks you to spend eternity with him, you refuse. Is God just by letting you excercise your free will? ( He could have made you a perfect robot that had no free will.)

God can and did anything he wanted, and if he is all powerful maybe we should not try to offend Him.

(I hit the wrong key- sorry)

Regardless, it is not just to punish someone eternally for something finite.

Pascals wager is flawed. And this flaw is so great it acheives the opposite of its intention

And if he has given you the time of your lifespan to make that choice and you decide not to, is that just?

One life time for eternity? No its not!

A loving god wouldn’t do that. Just as a loving parent wouldn’t punish a child for the rest of his life!

A prisoner is kept in prison to keep people safe from them.
God wouldn’t need to do this, he can do much more kind things. Wipe out their memory. Give them a second chance. Anything but eternal damnation!

 

[Chris_W]

ArisSlatr:

What would it take to convert me into a christian, An act of god only tracable to godQUOTE]

Have you ever looked at the miracles of Lourdes? The medical infirmaties are well documented (even by secular physicians who are there for the purpose of discrediting the claims) before the supposed miracle. Then the doctors review the condition after the claimed miracle. There have been like 66 cases where the results are so far outside the possibility of natural causes that they are called miracles. For example, there was a guy who had MS for 12 years, who ended up paralized, who upon visiting Lourdes, stood up and walked, wth no further symptoms.

Have you considered the life changing power of belief in God in the lives of people who have overcome drug use, addictions, pornography, depression, abuse, mental illness, etc? Does belief in “no-God” produce these kinds of results?

[Atheism offers hope in the sense that one knows that the only life your going to live is this one, so live as well as possible…

I think what you are describing is not hope at all, but a skewed sense of freedom to live as you please. Hope in what? Perhaps you are clinging to a hope that there will not be consequences for your life?

[Also, Catholoscism requires works, unless your a protestant, you need to do things to be a good christain.

I think many protestants would argue that they too see the need for good works. But responding to your point, Indeed faith requries work. The results of which have produced homeless shelters, soup kitchens, 12 step programs, service organizations that combat hunger and poverty, domestic violence, etc etc etc.

[Dont begin to tell me that god doesnt inspire his role through fear. He kills those who dont beleive in him, he bases his ethics on what is wrong.

In the old testament he is a jealous god, as the bible puts it.

In the new testament, he is “loving”, yet he still provide infinite punishment for finite sins.

Hmmmm. Kinda like a parent who lets his children suffer the consquences for their actions so that the child may reach the ultimate goal of a mature, healthy, good person? A parent who protects his child from consequences will raise an immature, dependent, self centered child who will likely not respect the parent (or any other authority).

*

How do you define justice? Justice without conesquences is not justice at all. In the secular world if a person abuses the freedoms given, those freedoms are taken away and the person may end up in prison. This seems like justice to the average person. No one will go to hell who doesn’t deserve (choose) it. God is justice in perfection, yet Merciful as well.*

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[ArisSlatr]

I never said anything about not wanting justice, I just dont want revenge.

Vengence is eye for an eye, and might I add, a sin!

Punishment is meant to teach a lesson, if a person goes to hell for eternity, what lesson is learned.

Man: “Great, im in hell becuase I didnt beleive in something. Ive learned my lesson God, can I go now?”

God: “Never!”

Man: “Then why am here?”

God: “Because I love you.”

Wow.

 

[buffalo]

ArisSlatr:

Regardless, it is not just to punish someone eternally for something finite.

Pascals wager is flawed. And this flaw is so great it acheives the opposite of its intention

One life time for eternity? No its not!

A loving god wouldn’t do that. Just as a loving parent wouldn’t punish a child for the rest of his life!

A prisoner is kept in prison to keep people safe from them.
God wouldn’t need to do this, he can do much more kind things. Wipe out their memory. Give them a second chance. Anything but eternal damnation!

God allows your excercise of free will to make a choice for God or not. He allows your final answer to stand for eternity.

He could wipe their memory but we are attempting to see God as we would wish not as he is,

From the Cathechism:
About Mortal Sin & Hell

1861. "Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. "

**1035 **The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
[037](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1037.htm’) God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

 

[buffalo]

ArisSlatr:

I never said anything about not wanting justice, I just dont want revenge.

Vengence is eye for an eye, and might I add, a sin!

Punishment is meant to teach a lesson, if a person goes to hell for eternity, what lesson is learned.

Man: “Great, im in hell becuase I didnt beleive in something. Ive learned my lesson God, can I go now?”

God: “Never!”

Man: “Then why am here?”

God: “Because I love you.”

Wow.

You would be in hell because you turned your back on God. He loves you - by giving you the chance to choose Him. If you don’t you are separated. That’s the teaching. Tough I know, but still the teaching.

So once you are no longer ignorant of God, Jesus and His Church and you choose against these - what would you expect? And in your sense of justice what about those that choose God? Should perfect justice be compromised for your sake?

 

[ArisSlatr]

"You would be in hell because you turned your back on God. He loves you - by giving you the chance to choose Him. If you don’t you are separated. That’s the teaching. Tough I know, but still the teaching.

So once you are no longer ignorant of God, Jesus and His Church and you choose against these - what would you expect? And in your sense of justice what about those that choose God? Should perfect justice be compromised for your sake?"

"We can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God. "

You’ve again come back to, we cannot understand god’s ultimate logic, and this restarts the circular logic of Christianity.

The truth is, infinite punishment for finite sins isn’t fair.

It’s hardly a lack of knowledge of that I am displaying.

“He could wipe their memory but we are attempting to see God as we would wish not as he is.”

Then why do we lose our memory after we die, as the “good book” says.

 

[buffalo]

My children don’t think any of my punishments are fair either. In their mind fair is quite different than in mine. Just beacuse we cannot understand something does not make it wrong. It just makes it hard.

Where does it say our memories are lost?

 

[ArisSlatr]

Chirdren also lack the reasoning skills we have.

You would reply with, well we lack the reasoning skills god does.

The key is that since we are adults, we do comprehend what is fair and what is not. Just becuase something may not seem fair. I think it is safe to say that anyone would agree that you dont deserve eternal damnation for adultery, or some other sin.

Do I deserve a life punishment for stealing a mars bar?

I can’t comprehend gods will? You’re doing it again.

 

[buffalo]

Without repenting for stealing the Mars bar you would not be forgiven. You have to ask for forgiveness. Now stealing the Mars bar is a venial sin and doesn’t warrant hell.

Now if we were mature (adult) enough to understand everything God does than maybe we would be able to perfect the current world we live in on our own. Evil would not be able to take hold. We would be perfectly content as humans. But since we are limited, we err.

 

[ArisSlatr]

buffalo:

Without repenting for stealing the Mars bar you would not be forgiven. You have to ask for forgiveness. Now stealing the Mars bar is a venial sin and doesn’t warrant hell.

1. All sins are equal in the eyes of god.
2. I may not feel bad about stealing it, I was punished so I wouldn’t do it again. Do I still deserve eternal punisment.

A life sentance for the candy bar?

 

[buffalo]

1. All sins are equal in the eyes of god.

We do not teach that all sins are equal. If you understand that to be so, you are mistaken.

 

[ArisSlatr]

Still the second question needs answered.

 

[PhilVaz]

ChrisW << Where are your fellow evolutionists who claim to also be Christian? I really expected to see someone like PhilVaz step up to the plate and say something like “now that’s going too far, Oolon…for these reasons…”. So far that hasn’t happened. This confirms my suspicion that evolution and Christianity are not compatible. >>

I’ve already explained, hundreds of times in fact that both Popes Pius XII and John Paul II have said evolution and Catholic Christianity are compatible. Case closed, end of debate on that point. See also Christian geologist Keith Miller, Catholic biologist Kenneth Miller, and former young-earther now theistic evolutionist Glenn Morton as examples of folks who have reconciled their faith with evolution.

There is a whole group of evangelical Christians who specialize in this called the American Scientific Affiliation. I need to work out some of the theological details myself (e.g. interpretations of Genesis, etc). I’m not there yet.

I was up to 4 AM E.S.T. last night responding to threads BTW. We were having a nice time answering all the creationist misconceptions. Then you guys have to turn this into an atheist vs. Christian debate. You should debate the evidence for evolution in a thread called creation vs. evolution. Please Christians and Catholics ignore the swipes at Christian belief saving those for other threads. It gets too confusing. William Lane Craig has answered all this in his debates with atheists, and the Kreeft/Tacelli Handbook of Christian Apologetics does a good job with many other objections the atheist might have.

Now please discuss the scientific evidence for evolution vs. the scientific evidence for creation in this thread, and save the atheism vs. Christianity debate for other threads. This thread is now ruined anyway. Thanks a lot.

Phil P

 

[buffalo]

IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

[1855](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1855.htm’) Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

[1856](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1856.htm’) Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130 1857 For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

 

[ArisSlatr]

Why does a lack of faith warrent eternal damnation.

You know that’s not a fair propisition. You dont even need me or a book to tell you that.

 

[buffalo]

ArisSlatr:

Why does a lack of faith warrent eternal damnation.

You know that’s not a fair propisition. You dont even need me or a book to tell you that.

Because basically you don’t want any part of it. You are saying just because I am, i should be happy in eternity.

 

[ArisSlatr]

Faith is but beleif without evidence. This is common knowledge.

Evidence shows that creation makes no sense.

Contradition.